Moderate Lutheran Churches

[Zoness]

Yeah it's Christ that matters but we live in a very human and doctrine-filled world so there is no easy answer. That is one of the things keeping me from joining the ELCA is full communion with the PCUSA because I do NOT accept Calvin's TULIP.

 

[DD2008]

Yeah it's Christ that matters but we live in a very human and doctrine-filled world so there is no easy answer. That is one of the things keeping me from joining the ELCA is full communion with the PCUSA because I do NOT accept Calvin's TULIP.

The ELCA doesn't either. They just agree on enough essentials that they can commune together with the PCUSA. All TULIP is is a doctrine of grace and predestination. If you believe in that or in acceptance of grace by free will both are simply conceptions of the mode of applying salvation. The core is that all believ the certain truth that we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. So they both believe that and have been able through Christian dialog to sift through their differences enough to unite in communion which is a big step toward the unity Christ prayed for in John 17.

 

[Tofferer]

If you do not accept it, then do not join a church that promotes it. Nor join any church that is in fellowship with any church that promotes it. Sound doctrine is actually quite essential to the christian faith. If your doctrine is not sound, you will not stand readily. If your doctrine is sound, you will be able to stand and withstand all that the devil throws your way.

 

[Zoness]

The ELCA doesn't either. They just agree on enough essentials that they can commune together with the PCUSA. All TULIP is is a doctrine of grace and predestination. If you believe in that or in acceptance of grace by free will both are simply conceptions of the mode of applying salvation. The core is that all believ the certain truth that we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. So they both believe that and have been able through Christian dialog to sift through their differences enough to unite in communion which is a big step toward the unity Christ prayed for in John 17.

I see what you are saying but I don't agree with limited atonement. And I am confused, how are they having full communion if they don't accept each others doctrine? In the long run it doesn't matter but I need something to annoy me while I'm on earth or being alive isn't any fun

 

[DD2008]

I see what you are saying but I don't agree with limited atonement. And I am confused, how are they having full communion if they don't accept each others doctrine? In the long run it doesn't matter but I need something to annoy me while I'm on earth or being alive isn't any fun

Try being a Sooner fan! We've lost 5 straight BCS bowls and three of those were national championship games!

 

[Zoness]

Try being a Sooner fan! We've lost 5 straight BCS bowls and three of those were national championship games!

lol ouch

Well I have concluded that for the most part it is LCMS or ELCA from this thread, it is all in the congregation.

 

[DD2008]

lol ouch

Well I have concluded that for the most part it is LCMS or ELCA from this thread, it is all in the congregation.

I don't understand it entirely but it does seem like there is emphasis on the local Church in the New Testament.

 

[Zoness]

I don't understand it entirely but it does seem like there is emphasis on the local Church in the New Testament.

Yeah unfortunately my "local church" choices are rather limited.

 

[Tofferer]

May I make a simple suggestion? Try just taking with the pastor about some of your concerns. Usually the pastor is glad to take a moment to discuss something that may otherwise keep you from joining. There were a few issues we discussed with our pastor before joining. We are thankful to have a pastor who was willing to take the time to talk with us. Also, remember that we have at least two pastors who post here somewhat regularly and I'm certain that they too could help you with any questions. Just be open to what they say. Likely they will point you to scripture.

 

[Zoness]

May I make a simple suggestion? Try just taking with the pastor about some of your concerns. Usually the pastor is glad to take a moment to discuss something that may otherwise keep you from joining. There were a few issues we discussed with our pastor before joining. We are thankful to have a pastor who was willing to take the time to talk with us. Also, remember that we have at least two pastors who post here somewhat regularly and I'm certain that they too could help you with any questions. Just be open to what they say. Likely they will point you to scripture.

Ok I will do that if I go back anytime soon.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

I find it difficult to work with terms like "conservative, liberal, moderate." Compared to WHAT? About WHAT?

EVERY denomination has a range of thought and often practice. We seem to be at a point in Christian history where there is an alignment along the liberal/conservative line of that denomination (particularly "hot button" issues of that denomination) rather than the ethnic/geographical alignment that once dominated. We see that powerfully in the Episcopal Church in the USA right now (as well as other Anglican provinces). It's happening, informally, in American Lutheranism, too. Whereas the LCMS and WELS were once known as GERMAN - they are now the "conservative" branches, and whereas the many Lutheran denominations that over the years came to be ELCA were often Scandinavian - they are now the "liberal" branch. But it's all pretty relative (even ELCA is pretty conservative compared to Protestantism as a whole). The same thing is happening in the Reformed movement...


Some would argue that among American Lutheranism, ELCA is the liberal, LCMS is the moderates and WELS is the conservative. In a GENERAL sense, and only as related to each other, there's some truth in that, more so in issues related to practice, social issues, morality and fellowship than in theology.


There is a RANGE in ALL denominations, including LCMS and ELCA. And they frequently overlap. ABout the only CLEAR issue between them is women's ordination: nearly universally accepted in ELCA and nearly universally not in LCMS, otherwise. Thus, you'll find "moderate" congregations in both camps. But again, it depends on the issue. Some LCMS churches have social views and fellowship practices that would be very much at home in ELCA but likely are still pretty conservative in theology and in it's view of Scripture. You'll find ELCA churches that worship and practice in ways that would be very much at home in LCMS but may be more "liberal" in theology. In other words, the SAME congregation may be liberal AND conservative - depending on what you are talking about.




.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

.

I find it difficult to work with terms like "conservative, liberal, moderate." Compared to WHAT? About WHAT?

EVERY denomination has a range of thought and often practice. We seem to be at a point in Christian history where there is an alignment along the liberal/conservative line of that denomination (particularly "hot button" issues of that denomination) rather than the ethnic/geographical alignment that once dominated. We see that powerfully in the Episcopal Church in the USA right now (as well as other Anglican provinces). It's happening, informally, in American Lutheranism, too. Whereas the LCMS and WELS were once known as GERMAN - they are now the "conservative" branches, and whereas the many Lutheran denominations that over the years came to be ELCA were often Scandinavian - they are now the "liberal" branch. But it's all pretty relative (even ELCA is pretty conservative compared to Protestantism as a whole). The same thing is happening in the Reformed movement...


Some would argue that among American Lutheranism, ELCA is the liberal, LCMS is the moderates and WELS is the conservative. In a GENERAL sense, and only as related to each other, there's some truth in that, more so in issues related to practice, social issues, morality and fellowship than in theology.


There is a RANGE in ALL denominations, including LCMS and ELCA. And they frequently overlap. ABout the only CLEAR issue between them is women's ordination: nearly universally accepted in ELCA and nearly universally not in LCMS, otherwise. Thus, you'll find "moderate" congregations in both camps. But again, it depends on the issue. Some LCMS churches have social views and fellowship practices that would be very much at home in ELCA but likely are still pretty conservative in theology and in it's view of Scripture. You'll find ELCA churches that worship and practice in ways that would be very much at home in LCMS but may be more "liberal" in theology. In other words, the SAME congregation may be liberal AND conservative - depending on what you are talking about.




.

Well said Josiah.

The bottom line is that we must look at everything in the light of Scripture.

In the light of Scripture, we should most likely be talking about orthodox and heterodox.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I can't agree with the closed communion either. I'm pretty sure I'll be going to a Presbyterian Church most Sundays maybe even joining. But when I do attend the Lutheran Church it will be ELCA. The PCUSA and the ELCA are in full alter and pulpit fellowship. There is an ELCA and a PCUSA on the same block in my town that cooperate with one another quite a lot. I really like their ecumenical model.

Check out the link. These five Churches are in full communion so if you join one you can commune in them all: http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-...Inter-Religious-Relations/Full-Communion.aspx

I don't think closed communion is that big of a deal actually. It is the church trying to stop sin when it occurs at the altar, not a way to reject people lol.

 

[DD2008]

May I make a simple suggestion? Try just taking with the pastor about some of your concerns. Usually the pastor is glad to take a moment to discuss something that may otherwise keep you from joining. There were a few issues we discussed with our pastor before joining. We are thankful to have a pastor who was willing to take the time to talk with us. Also, remember that we have at least two pastors who post here somewhat regularly and I'm certain that they too could help you with any questions. Just be open to what they say. Likely they will point you to scripture.

I agee. The pastors on TCL are very good.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Try being a Sooner fan! We've lost 5 straight BCS bowls and three of those were national championship games!

Try being a Hawkeye Fan, well try being a fan of a Big Ten team...1-6 this year for bowl games.

 

[DD2008]

Try being a Hawkeye Fan, well try being a fan of a Big Ten team...1-6 this year for bowl games.

I like the Hawkeyes! I wish they were in the Big 12 instead of Iowa State. It would make the north division stronger. Although maybe potentially too strong if the year did come where Nebraska, Colorado, Mizzou, Kansas, KSU, and Iowa actually performed the way they should. So it might be good that Iowa State is in there I don't know.

In the south I wish TCU had joined instead of Baylor it would have made the south more interesting. Well it is pretty interesting given the three way tie.

Well, you have found the way to get me completely off topic, sorry. I'm a huge OU fan and a huge college football fan in general.

 

[Tofferer]

Well said Josiah.

The bottom line is that we must look at everything in the light of Scripture.

In the light of Scripture, we should most likely be talking about orthodox and heterodox.

Very true. Sadly, I fear that some churches would rather throw out scripture in order to gain members. This also means that they are more likely to join into fellowship with associations that do not hold the same view of scripture.

I don't think closed communion is that big of a deal actually. It is the church trying to stop sin when it occurs at the altar, not a way to reject people lol.

You are correct. Though some may see closed communion as a problem, it really is a safeguard, just as you have pointed out. I think that unfortunately, as you have alluded, people get the feeling they are unwelcome simply because of this. However, a short friendly talk with the pastor can usually overcome that feeling and actually may lead people to consider joining the church.

Thoughtful and respectful communication is how we need to present the truth. If people can see these things in the light of love, they will be drawn in not pushed away.

 

[Zoness]

Well there is still sin at the altar we are an imperfect people, and that is not limited to one church. Someone mentioned heterodox; in the strictest of terms we are all heterodox because we don't do what the EO does so that is a moot point. Call me lazy but I'm not into all of this bureaucratic stuff (for lack of a better term). I mean, I have a multi-month long class session (that I can't show up for regularly because my parents are vehemently Catholic) and then I get confirmed but then I'm moving to a university in the fall so I would have to prepare transfer letters and what not to make sure I don't screw myself up. I don't know it all seems rather messy, maybe it isn't but with someone who is only granted limited participation it is hard.

 

[filosofer]

Someone mentioned heterodox; in the strictest of terms we are all heterodox because we don't do what the EO does so that is a moot point.

You are confusing terms. Heterodox is the turning away from Scripture in specific points (Reformed, including EO, etc.), that is they are not orthodox. We are orthodox in the sense of teaching "straight doctrine/praise" based on Scripture; in this case "orthodox" does not refer to the denomination(s) that are called Orthodox (Eastern, Greek, Russian, etc.).

 

[Zoness]

You are confusing terms. Heterodox is the turning away from Scripture in specific points (Reformed, including EO, etc.), that is they are not orthodox. We are orthodox in the sense of teaching "straight doctrine/praise" based on Scripture; in this case "orthodox" does not refer to the denomination(s) that are called Orthodox (Eastern, Greek, Russian, etc.).

Ok

Because I forgot to say something earlier Josiah brings up an interesting point. Churches are divided less and less by geographical and ethnic distinctions (which is kind of good because then you would really be excluded) but at the same time this polarizing, which I see very strong in Lutheranism (and possibly soon Anglicanism) is very divisive.