Miracles Cannot Violate Natural Law

[Xalith]

Ya....those pesky Muslims.

That's not who I was talking about, and you know it. Or at least I hope you know it, lol.

Actually, the Muslims believe that there was a Jesus, though they don't believe that He was actually God in a physical body.

That's more than what we can say for most of the group of people I was referring to.

 

[Pagan]

They wanted to kill Him because He called them out on what they actually were, hypocrites. He taught the truth compared to the rituals of the Sanhedrin. He also stated that He was the Messiah.
Also, He came to fulfill the law and become the sacrifice for all mankind. This ended the need for the sacrifices that were required by the mosaic law. The high priests could not take this and saw it as blasphemy.

Saying he "antagonized" them, to me, sounds like He taunted them. I don't believe that He did this.

Instead of antagonized, I could say, "Aroused hostility." So far, I have not seen an event in which a Gospel describes the Jewish leaders as angry. Maybe Jesus did not arouse their hostility. Maybe his existence threatened them politically. It wasn't personal. It was business.

 

[Pagan]

I think every miracle could be explained in a natural way.

Many events classified as miracles seem like we should classify them as natural events. For example, the parting of the Red Sea sounds like a tsunami.

 

[AV1611VET]

Many events classified as miracles seem like we should classify them as natural events. For example, the parting of the Red Sea sounds like a tsunami.

Hey, neat.

How's come those Indonesians and tourists didn't just drive across on dry ground to Malaysia then?

I guess they didn't know Hebrew very well, did they?

They must not have had access to Strong's Concordance either, eh?

Maybe they thought about it but, like A'Quila, scientists told them it's safe to go home?

 

[JacksBratt]

Instead of antagonized, I could say, "Aroused hostility." So far, I have not seen an event in which a Gospel describes the Jewish leaders as angry. Maybe Jesus did not arouse their hostility. Maybe his existence threatened them politically. It wasn't personal. It was business.

Jesus threatened their status quo. They did not believe that He was, in fact, the Messiah. Many Jewish people of today have come to believe this but many more still don't.

They were blind to who they were dealing with, even when He fulfilled many prophesies.

He embarrassed them with His knowledge. He embarrassed them with the company He kept and who He associated with. He embarrassed them with the authority He did these things with. He angered them because He did nothing wrong, never sinned and could never be trapped by the questions they tried to trap Him with.

I believe that the gospel is full of times when they were angry. Right up until:

Matthew 26:65New International Version (NIV)

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.

Before that we have:

John 8:58-59New International Version (NIV)

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

and:

John 10:30-33New International Version (NIV)
30 I and the Father are one.”


31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

and:


Mark 3:3-6New International Version (NIV)
3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”


4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

and:

Luke 4:21New International Version (NIV)
21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

I didn't want to take up too much space. In verse 29 we read:

Luke 4:29New International Version (NIV)
28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff.

 

[JacksBratt]

Many events classified as miracles seem like we should classify them as natural events. For example, the parting of the Red Sea sounds like a tsunami.

So, walking on the water could be........what?

How about standing up and telling the storm to stop and having the sea go to a dead calm?

Medicine of today still takes months to cure the progression of leprosy. Nothing can make the people whole again.

Can anything natural bring a man back from the dead after he has been dead long enough that the people told Jesus that he would "stinketh"?

 

[SkyWriting]

That's not who I was talking about, and you know it. Or at least I hope you know it, lol.Actually, the Muslims believe that there was a Jesus, though they don't believe that He was actually God in a physical body.That's more than what we can say for most of the group of people I was referring to.

Ah, Jehovah Witnesses then.

 

[SkyWriting]

So, walking on the water could be........what?

Hey...it happens.

 

[Xalith]

Ah, Jehovah Witnesses then.

Nope. I wasn't talking about them either. Jehovah's Witnesses will at least claim to believe in God.

 

[JacksBratt]

Hey...it happens.

LOL
Very good. Now if the lizard, or whatever it was, could ask someone to walk over to it, on the water, as it stood there. I would be impressed.

Funny though. But I really doubt that Jesus sprinted out to the boat....

 

[Xalith]

Instead of antagonized, I could say, "Aroused hostility." So far, I have not seen an event in which a Gospel describes the Jewish leaders as angry. Maybe Jesus did not arouse their hostility. Maybe his existence threatened them politically. It wasn't personal. It was business.

He was indeed a threat to their establishment. They valued long flowing robes, with long tassels, and the upper seats at the synagogues. They valued personal glory over God. And when Jesus came and rebuked them for it, they sought to kill him. They knew exactly who He was. We're talking about the Scribes, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, you know, the people who memorized lots and lots of Scriptures and took pride in how "holy" they were? The people who prayed at the street corners to put their "faith" on full display, all of which Jesus rebuked?

They knew who Jesus is. They couldn't have not known, because all of those scriptures testified of Him, and He called them out on it. When He did that, they wanted to stone Him.

No, they wanted to kill Him because He was a threat to their establishments and their personal glory. They valued respect and personal glory more than they valued their promised Messiah. That's why Jesus tells them "Ye are of your father the devil".

 

[Pagan]

Jesus threatened their status quo. They did not believe that He was, in fact, the Messiah. Many Jewish people of today have come to believe this but many more still don't.

They were blind to who they were dealing with, even when He fulfilled many prophesies.

He embarrassed them with His knowledge. He embarrassed them with the company He kept and who He associated with. He embarrassed them with the authority He did these things with. He angered them because He did nothing wrong, never sinned and could never be trapped by the questions they tried to trap Him with.

I believe that the gospel is full of times when they were angry. Right up until:

Matthew 26:65New International Version (NIV)

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.

Before that we have:

John 8:58-59New International Version (NIV)

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

and:

John 10:30-33New International Version (NIV)
30 I and the Father are one.”


31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

and:


Mark 3:3-6New International Version (NIV)
3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”


4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

and:

Luke 4:21New International Version (NIV)
21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

I didn't want to take up too much space. In verse 29 we read:

Luke 4:29New International Version (NIV)
28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff.

All that seems interesting to me, and I see how one can infer that Pharisees felt anger, but it might easily have been fear.

 

[Pagan]

So, walking on the water could be........what?

How about standing up and telling the storm to stop and having the sea go to a dead calm?

Medicine of today still takes months to cure the progression of leprosy. Nothing can make the people whole again.

Can anything natural bring a man back from the dead after he has been dead long enough that the people told Jesus that he would "stinketh"?

When I heard about walking on water, I thought about Jesus looking like a ghost. It sounds like a hallucination.

Storms stop. They are natural events.

Instantaneous cures do a lot to undermine credibility. It just never happens. People get sick. The go to there house. If they don't come out, the village elders burn the house.

Walking dead would also seem impossible, but I know about herbs that make people appear dead.

 

[Xalith]

When I heard about walking on water, I thought about Jesus looking like a ghost. It sounds like a hallucination.

Storms stop. They are natural events.

Instantaneous cures do a lot to undermine credibility. It just never happens. People get sick. The go to there house. If they don't come out, the village elders burn the house.

Walking dead would also seem impossible, but I know about herbs that make people appear dead.

Okay, how about Jesus beckoning Peter to step out of the boat (which he does), and Peter is able to stand on the water for a few seconds until he starts to sink?

How would you explain that away? Was Peter also hallucinating? How about the rest of the apostles on the boat?

 

[SkyWriting]

LOL
Very good. Now if the lizard, or whatever it was, could ask someone to walk over to it, on the water, as it stood there. I would be impressed.

Funny though. But I really doubt that Jesus sprinted out to the boat....

 

[SkyWriting]

Okay, how about Jesus beckoning Peter to step out of the boat (which he does), and Peter is able to stand on the water for a few seconds until he starts to sink?

How would you explain that away? Was Peter also hallucinating? How about the rest of the apostles on the boat?

 

[DogmaHunter]

To understand this better, could you give an example of something bad happening that is unexplained?

Off the top of my head: Schizofrenia. Nobody knows what causes it, nore how to cure it.

There are plenty of unexplained deseases and causes of death.

Then there are those "seemingly impossible" accidents which are the result of plenty of factors resulting in as good as impossible odds of it happening. But then it happens anyway and causes pain, death and / or suffering.

There are spontanous cures of deseases with far better odds that are labeled "miracle" all the time.

 

[Pagan]

Okay, how about Jesus beckoning Peter to step out of the boat (which he does), and Peter is able to stand on the water for a few seconds until he starts to sink?

How would you explain that away? Was Peter also hallucinating? How about the rest of the apostles on the boat?

Of course, sinking in water sounds like a natural event. We don't know the witness who recorded the event, so we don't know why the witness recorded what he or she recorded. The mention of Jesus looking like a ghost makes the description of the event sound like an eye-witness account.

 

[Xalith]

I don't know what you're even trying to say with this, unless you're trying to say that Peter was actually a bug that stands on the water because it doesn't have enough weight to actually sink?

Pretty sure Peter weighed far more than a few grams.

 

[freezerman2000]

deleted