Miracles Cannot Violate Natural Law

[AV1611VET]

Sure

Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

[freezerman2000]

Independent Fundamental Baptist

That was so predictable!

 

[AV1611VET]

That was so predictable!

 

[DogmaHunter]

plural noun: miracles

1. 
   
   
   • a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

Funny how it is defined in terms of an argument from ignorance / incredulity.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You mean Christian edifices, slogans, documentation, debates, holidays, hymns and carols, songs, martyrs, and time broken up into BC/AD is all just "safely locked away in JacksBratt's imagination?

If those things "prove christianity", then every religion on earth must be true. Including those that nobody believes in anymore. And all those that haven't been dreamed up yet.

 

[AV1611VET]

If those things "prove christianity", then every religion on earth must be true.

Christianity can't be true at the same time other religions are.

Christianity is exclusive to the universe.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Christianity can't be true at the same time other religions are.
Christianity is exclusive to the universe.

As I said: if those things "prove" christianity, then those same things also "prove" other religions.

Yes, I know that religions tend to be mutually exclusive.

I was making a point about the "quality" of the "proof" you provided.

 

[AV1611VET]

As I said: if those things "prove" christianity, then those same things also "prove" other religions.

Christmas proves Islam?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Christmas proves Islam?

Other religions have their own holidays. This is news to you?

 

[AV1611VET]

Other religions have their own holidays. This is news to you?

What's your point?

Is there something I'm missing?

Does BC/AD point you to Buddhism?

Or Christian holidays, songs, iconography, slogans, bumper stickers, debates, programs, edifices, etc.?

Do they all point you somewhere other than to Jesus Christ?

 

[DogmaHunter]

What's your point?
Is there something I'm missing?

Yes. There's lots of things you are missing. Pretty much everything outside that little bubble you created for yourself.

Does BC/AD point you to Buddhism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

Or Christian holidays, songs, iconography, slogans, bumper stickers, debates, programs, edifices, etc.?

Or caligraphy, or islamic holidays, programs, debates, charities,.....

Do they all point you somewhere other than to Jesus Christ?

Well, if you must ask, christmas points me to pagan celts and the winter solstice.
Easter in turn points to pagan festivities concerning the March equinox.

These "holidays" are not of a christian origin.

 

[homohabilis117]

Sound like homohabilis117 pantheist.

Not pantheist. You not think God infinite? God is beyond universe, as well as within it. If not also within universe, then that means a space exists where God is not. Thus God not infinite. But God is infinite. Pantheists not wrong when they say God is in all things. He is onipresent. Pantheist very wrong when he worships rock because he think rock is God. This is like man bowing to kings foot instead of to king himself: this man not wrong that foot is part of king, but he is wrong to confuse a part with the whole.

 

[homohabilis117]

So, Christ walking on water, turning water, instantly to wine, curing leprosy, blindness, deafness with the touch of a hand is all within the natural laws and some day man will do it without effort? OK!

Cause of miracles was divine. Miracle have divine origin. Otherwise not miracle. Habilis only saying that when divine cause acts on the physical universe it not contradicting law of physical world. It may contradict what man believes to be law at that time, but not natural laws as they actually exist. Laws can be bent or surpassed by other higher laws: but these relationships between laws never represent a contradiction.

 

[Pagan]

Hello, dis Habilis here. Habilis wants to mention: miracles cannot violate natural law if God exits. God has qualities that are part of his nature: Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence. To name a few... If God Omnipresent that means He exists both within and without the universe. If God exists within the universe, he cannot violate the laws of the universe where He is inside it, because this would contradict Himself. God made universe and natural law. He is omnipresent (within the universe). Within universe, God cannot break natural law. Miracle might bend or extend law, but not violate that law.
This change how we view miracles like big flood: If God used miracles to cause big flood, this flood should follow natural laws. If this true, evidence should look like big flood stir everything up. But fossil record not look this way. So maybe big flood local flood?

I know Christians who argue that even God obeys his own rules. They invoke this idea with free will. If God gives us free will, he must accept the consequences of human behavior. Seems to me the same might happen with momentum or genetics, so events, which appear to happen in a miraculous way might have natural explanations.

 

[AV1611VET]

If God gives us free will, he must accept the consequences of human behavior.

Like taking our sins upon Himself and dying on a cross?

 

[SkyWriting]

Funny how it is defined in terms of an argument from ignorance / incredulity.

I don't see the connection between welcome and incredulity.

 

[Pagan]

Like taking our sins upon Himself and dying on a cross?

I bet the priest who told me about free will would agree, but I wonder if Jesus antagonizing the Pharisees, Herod, and the teachers of the law offer might a better examples.

 

[mmksparbud]

God does not force us to choose Him---He has been known to alter circumstances to force us to do something that He needs done--as with providing Jonah a whale to "think things over"--or Balaam being unable to curse Israel--In not forcing us to choose Him but allowing us the right to reject Him, He refuses to do what He has the power to do simply because He wants a people who will choose Him freely. He has the power to force, but does not use it.

 

[AV1611VET]

I bet the priest who told me about free will would agree, but I wonder if Jesus antagonizing the Pharisees, Herod, and the teachers of the law offer might a better examples.

I'm sorry ... what?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't see the connection between welcome and incredulity.

How about between "unexplained" and "incredulity".

It's literally stating that such an event is called a miracle because no actual explanation is available.

It's literally stating that "I don't know / understand, therefor miracle!".

But for some reason, when something bad happens that is equally unexplained, then it's just "unfortunate" or "bad luck".