Miracles Cannot Violate Natural Law

[Moral Orel]

Or is it all
God's money, I forgot.

That reminds me of a joke!

Three ministers are deciding what to do with the money they received from their offering plates.

The first minister draws a circle in the dirt around him and says, "I'll throw the money in the air, and whatever lands outside the circle is God's, whatever lands inside the circle I'll keep for myself."

The second minister draws a circle in the dirt around him and says, "I'll throw the money in the air, and whatever lands inside the circle is God's, whatever lands outside the circle I'll keep for myself."

The third minister says, "I'll throw the money in the air and whatever God wants, He can keep".

I left out the specific "denominations" to make it less offensive.

 

[AV1611VET]

That reminds me of a joke!

That's how scientists would test for God.

 

[JacksBratt]

I bet the priest who told me about free will would agree, but I wonder if Jesus antagonizing the Pharisees, Herod, and the teachers of the law offer might a better examples.

How did Jesus "antagonize" them?

 

[AV1611VET]

How did Jesus "antagonize" them?

The same way He antagonizes scientists today: miracles.

 

[Xalith]

The same way He antagonizes scientists today: miracles.

The same way any parent "antagonizes" a child: by trying to teach them better ways when they do something wrong.

Christ tried to teach them and they pitched a massive pout and refused to listen to Him because they were so set in their ways that they refused to believe in Him.

Gee, that kinda reminds me of another group of people who think that they know everything there is to know about the world, it's origins, and such who refuse to believe in Christ.

 

[SkyWriting]

The same way any parent "antagonizes" a child: by trying to teach them better ways when they do something wrong.

Christ tried to teach them and they pitched a massive pout and refused to listen to Him because they were so set in their ways that they refused to believe in Him.

Gee, that kinda reminds me of another group of people who think that they know everything there is to know about the world, it's origins, and such who refuse to believe in Christ.

Ya....those pesky Muslims.

 

[Pagan]

I'm sorry ... what?

When Jesus healed on Saturdays, ate without washing, or touched a leper, did he do it as God or as a man?

 

[AV1611VET]

When Jesus healed on Saturdays, ate without washing, or touched a leper, did he do it as God or as a man?

I would assume He did it as God.

 

[SkyWriting]

When Jesus healed on Saturdays, ate without washing, or touched a leper, did he do it as God or as a man?

He was the one man fully possessed with God's Holy Spirit.
That's why his voluntary death counted for the benefit of all man.

 

[SkyWriting]

How about between "unexplained" and "incredulity".It's literally stating that such an event is called a miracle because no actual explanation is available.It's literally stating that "I don't know / understand, therefor miracle!".But for some reason, when something bad happens that is equally unexplained, then it's just "unfortunate" or "bad luck".

Or it's considered "God's Will"
because it is always that.
Context again.

The Prosperity of the Wicked
1Righteous are You, O LORD, that I would plead my case with You; Indeed I would discuss matters of justice with You: Why has the way of the wicked prospered? Why are all those who deal in treachery at ease?2You have planted them, they have also taken root; They grow, they have even produced fruit. You are near to their lips But far from their mind

 

[Pagan]

How did Jesus "antagonize" them?

Before Herod put John in prison, Jesus went to Jerusalem where he scattered the animals and turned over the tables. After John went to prison, Jesus proclaimed the end of the world, he touched a leper, and he healed a man on a Saturday. After he did these things the Jewish leaders plotted to kill him.

 

[Pagan]

I would assume He did it as God.

Yes, that is what I thought, but according to another contributor, Jesus was both.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, that is what I thought, but according to another contributor, Jesus was both.

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

 

[Pagan]

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

Well okay, that is fine. But when I originally posted on this thread, I tried to say, or I wanted to say, that events, which Christians call miraculous, don't seem miraculous from a Pagan view. When people get sick they live or die. People appear dead, but they continue to live. Shamans have an herb to make people appear dead. So I wonder if so called miracles might have natural explanations.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well okay, that is fine. But when I originally posted on this thread, I tried to say, or I wanted to say, that events, which Christians call miraculous, don't seem miraculous from a Pagan view. When people get sick they live or die. People appear dead, but they continue to live. Shamans have an herb to make people appear dead. So I wonder if so called miracles might have natural explanations.

No, miracles do not have natural explanations.

Potions and herbs can only go so far in what they can do.

Miracles are the real McCoy.

No potion or herb, for example, can do this ...

Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

Fourth Reich scientists created and developed a drug to mess with peoples' minds, but that's far from performing a miracle.

 

[JacksBratt]

How about between "unexplained" and "incredulity".

It's literally stating that such an event is called a miracle because no actual explanation is available.

It's literally stating that "I don't know / understand, therefor miracle!".

But for some reason, when something bad happens that is equally unexplained, then it's just "unfortunate" or "bad luck".

To understand this better, could you give an example of something bad happening that is unexplained?

 

[JacksBratt]

Before Herod put John in prison, Jesus went to Jerusalem where he scattered the animals and turned over the tables. After John went to prison, Jesus proclaimed the end of the world, he touched a leper, and he healed a man on a Saturday. After he did these things the Jewish leaders plotted to kill him.

They wanted to kill Him because He called them out on what they actually were, hypocrites. He taught the truth compared to the rituals of the Sanhedrin. He also stated that He was the Messiah.
Also, He came to fulfill the law and become the sacrifice for all mankind. This ended the need for the sacrifices that were required by the mosaic law. The high priests could not take this and saw it as blasphemy.

Saying he "antagonized" them, to me, sounds like He taunted them. I don't believe that He did this.

 

[AV1611VET]

Saying he "antagonized" them, to me, sounds like He taunted them. I don't believe that He did this.

Compare that to their attitude towards Him today:

"If I ever meet Him, He and I are going to have a serious talk."

"When I meet Him, I'm going to ask Him why He let [x,y,z] happen."

"He's a [liar, deceiver]."

 

[homohabilis117]

I know Christians who argue that even God obeys his own rules. They invoke this idea with free will. If God gives us free will, he must accept the consequences of human behavior. Seems to me the same might happen with momentum or genetics, so events, which appear to happen in a miraculous way might have natural explanations.

I think every miracle could be explained in a natural way. Miracles, if they act on physical reality inevitably get processed through human senses. Basically, a miracle produces a physical effect. Positing a natural cause to that effect will always make more sense, especially to those that did not witness the event. This is because a separation exists between the divine cause of a miracle and its physical effect(s). Our senses can only process the effect. The cause, if assumed to be divine, is the inference of the observer. The divine, insofar as it acts on the physical world must be perceived by philosophical reasoning and or faith. Trying to prove the divine by reference to its effects, rather than the reasons for its causes, merely multiplies confusion and misunderstandings.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think every miracle could be explained in a natural way.

That's what Satan wants you to think ... like a scientist.

If every miracle could be explained in a natural way, then how would you convince someone GOD DID IT?

Let me give you my favorite example.

Here is a list of modern-day catastrophies that I think God orchestrated:*

• 30 October 1991: The Halloween Monster, a.k.a. The Perfect Storm, strikes the U.S. amid the "land-for-peace" Madrid peace talks; President Bush's ocean-side home destroyed.
• 23 August 1992: President Bush moves Madrid talks to U.S. soil; that very day, Hurricane Andrew devastates southern Florida.
• 16 January 1994: President Clinton meets with Syrian President Hafez Assad to discuss more "land for peace" arrangements; less than 24 hours later, a 6.9 earthquake pulverized southern California.
• 1 September 1993: President Clinton announces a meeting with Arafat for the Oslo peace accords, to be held on 13 September; after a week of meandering in the Atlantic Ocean, Hurricane Emily hits North Carolina on that very day.
• 21 January 1998: while waiting to meet with Arafat at the White House, President Clinton's sex scandal breaks out.
• 27 September 1998: Arafat is meeting with the president in Washington; Hurricane Georges hits Alabama and stalls. The hurricane stalls until Arafat leaves and then it dissipates. Parts of Alabama declared a disaster area.
• 17 October 1998: Arafat comes to the Wye Plantation meeting; incredible rains fall on Texas, which cause record flooding. Parts of Texas declared a disaster area.
• 3 September 1999: Secretary of State Albright meets with Arafat in Israel; Hurricane Dennis comes ashore on this very day after weeks of changing course in the Atlantic Ocean.
• 12-26 July 2000: Arafat at the Camp David meetings. Powerful droughts throughout the country. Forest fires explode in West into uncontrollable fires. By the end of August, 7 million acres are burnt.
• 9 November 2000, two days after the presidential election: Arafat meets with President Clinton at the White House to try and salvage the peace process; worst election crisis in over 100 years occurs.

Do any of those tell you: GOD DID IT?

* Psalm 83:15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.