Miracles Cannot Violate Natural Law

[PsychoSarah]

This adds credibility. Thanks for noting.

you'll like this story then; http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/apples.html
One of the labors of Hercules (or Herakles) has him stealing golden apples from a garden that belong to Zeus, the god of the sky. Often the story depicts a dragon as defending the apples, which is a less common depiction of the serpent in the garden of Eden.

Most people view the similarities in myths actually as lessening credibility rather than adding to it, because while they have similar themes and items, they are still very different in regards to events.

 

[AV1611VET]

But instead, it falls on a pagan holiday, and is celebrated exactly the same as that pagan holiday.

By whom? and what is that pagan holiday? Saturnalia?

 

[PsychoSarah]

By whom? and what is that pagan holiday? Saturnalia?

Not a specific holiday; a lot of pagan holidays fell at that time of year. I know a bit of Norse Viking is in there, and some winter solstice celebrations.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not a specific holiday; a lot of pagan holidays fell at that time of year. I know a bit of Norse Viking is in there, and some winter solstice celebrations.

Too bad then.

Perhaps the object(s) of their celebration should have been a little more convincing, eh?

Personally, I don't care if Jesus was born on February 29th.

God orchestrating His birthday to December 25th was a master stroke that broke the back of these "lot of pagan holidays" you're being vague about.

Ask almost anyone what December 25th means to them, and I'm sure you'll get "Christmas" or "Jesus' birthday" as a consensus of opinion.

If you get anything else, it's probably because a handful of people are trying to keep something alive that died a long time ago of a broken back.

As God put it in principle: Smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

That's exactly what He did.

Delivering a single blow to "a lot of pagan holidays" at once.

 

[SkyWriting]

you'll like this story then; http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/apples.html
One of the labors of Hercules (or Herakles) has him stealing golden apples from a garden that belong to Zeus, the god of the sky. Often the story depicts a dragon as defending the apples, which is a less common depiction of the serpent in the garden of Eden.

Most people view the similarities in myths actually as lessening credibility rather than adding to it, because while they have similar themes and items, they are still very different in regards to events.

Can you support your "most people" claim?
Or you mean.....you.

 

[SkyWriting]

One of the labors of Hercules (or Herakles) has him stealing golden apples from a garden that belong to Zeus, the god of the sky. Often the story depicts a dragon as defending the apples, which is a less common depiction of the serpent in the garden of Eden.

In the telephone game, the original story gets distorted.
It never means there was no original story.

 

[SkyWriting]

Most people view the similarities in myths actually as lessening credibility rather than adding to it, because while they have similar themes and items, they are still very different in regards to events.

Nope.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope.

I'm going to agree with Sarah on this one.

Although some claim the Flood story is found in almost every annal of history on earth, the details are quite different.

This tells me that the story ... as Noah wrote it ... was changed for whatever reason.

The [1611KJ] Bible should be our blueprint for comparing every story, legend, fact (scientific or historical), myth, and rumor in existence.

If it contradicts the Bible, it's wrong.

If the Bible is silent on the matter ... say, Columbus discovering America ... then proceed with caution.

 

[Xalith]

Too bad then.

Perhaps the object(s) of their celebration should have been a little more convincing, eh?

Personally, I don't care if Jesus was born on February 29th.

God orchestrating His birthday to December 25th was a master stroke that broke the back of these "lot of pagan holidays" you're being vague about.

Ask almost anyone what December 25th means to them, and I'm sure you'll get "Christmas" or "Jesus' birthday" as a consensus of opinion.

If you get anything else, it's probably because a handful of people are trying to keep something alive that died a long time ago of a broken back.

As God put it in principle: Smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

That's exactly what He did.

Delivering a single blow to "a lot of pagan holidays" at once.

While that is true, it is also a double-edged sword... that eventually Christians started falling into the trap of idolatry associated with the worship of material possessions and money that is attached to Christmas. But then that, too, is part of God's plan to weed the tares out of the wheat.

 

[AV1611VET]

While that is true, it is also a double-edged sword... that eventually Christians started falling into the trap of idolatry associated with the worship of material possessions and money that is attached to Christmas. But then that, too, is part of God's plan to weed the tares out of the wheat.

No argument there, my friend!

 

[JacksBratt]

The times that certain holidays associated with Christianity take place point to other religions, as well as some of the iconography. For example, if Christmas were to actually fall on a time around Jesus's birth, based on the bible, we should be celebrating it in the spring. But instead, it falls on a pagan holiday, and is celebrated exactly the same as that pagan holiday.

OT YHWH's behavior is reminiscent of the religions that came before it; an angry, jealous deity that interfered frequently with humans, often through patroning specific people. Greek gods did that a lot.

You are correct. The holidays do not fall on the dates that would more accurately represent their purpose. It's never been a problem for me as no matter what, I am setting a time aside to remember the event.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Too bad then.

Perhaps the object(s) of their celebration should have been a little more convincing, eh?

Personally, I don't care if Jesus was born on February 29th.

God orchestrating His birthday to December 25th was a master stroke that broke the back of these "lot of pagan holidays" you're being vague about.

Ask almost anyone what December 25th means to them, and I'm sure you'll get "Christmas" or "Jesus' birthday" as a consensus of opinion.

If you get anything else, it's probably because a handful of people are trying to keep something alive that died a long time ago of a broken back.

As God put it in principle: Smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

That's exactly what He did.

Delivering a single blow to "a lot of pagan holidays" at once.

As I have said before; while the bible DOES NOT EXPLICITLY STATE when Jesus was born, certain comments within it indicate springtime, not winter. Also, you very well know consensus of opinion is irrelevant.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You are correct. The holidays do not fall on the dates that would more accurately represent their purpose. It's never been a problem for me as no matter what, I am setting a time aside to remember the event.

Fair enough. I am an atheist, and my family drags me to celebrate these holidays with them. It isn't the holidays themselves I hate, so much as the fact that I end up having to set up and clean up after them, and am not particularly eager to spend extended amounts of time with people in person. The yearly celebration I hate the most is my own birthday. Thankfully, I am starting to be old enough people don't make a big deal out of that anymore.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Nope.

I am not saying that the common view is necessarily right, just that most people view the similarities in very different stories as more indicating that humans aren't very creative and like to steal from other stories to incorporate into their own, rather than all stories originating from the same, real events, because most of the key details between stories are different.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Can you support your "most people" claim?
Or you mean.....you.

A google search fact checks me, yeesh, if you are that skeptical of a minor claim at worst, you could easily refute me with evidence and be done with it, rather than drag this out.

 

[AV1611VET]

Fair enough. I am an atheist, and my family drags me to celebrate these holidays with them. It isn't the holidays themselves I hate, so much as the fact that I end up having to set up and clean up after them, and am not particularly eager to spend extended amounts of time with people in person. The yearly celebration I hate the most is my own birthday. Thankfully, I am starting to be old enough people don't make a big deal out of that anymore.

I know a couple of people like that in our church.

Can you give me some tips on how I should treat them?

 

[SkyWriting]

A google search fact checks me, yeesh, if you are that skeptical of a minor claim at worst, you could easily refute me with evidence and be done with it, rather than drag this out.

So you are making an unfounded claim. That's fine.
Just letting you know, people don't swallow your
sermons.

 

[JacksBratt]

Fair enough. I am an atheist, and my family drags me to celebrate these holidays with them. It isn't the holidays themselves I hate, so much as the fact that I end up having to set up and clean up after them, and am not particularly eager to spend extended amounts of time with people in person. The yearly celebration I hate the most is my own birthday. Thankfully, I am starting to be old enough people don't make a big deal out of that anymore.

The way I look at it is, we have chosen these dates as points in time to reflect on an event. We do it collectively as brothers and sisters with a common faith.

We do know when Christ was crucified. It was at the time of Passover. That's a simple one.

It's too bad that you are dragged to these celebrations. I am one that hates being forced to do anything that I don't want to do as well. Being dragged to a religious event, with your beliefs, would seem a bit much.

 

[PsychoSarah]

So you are making an unfounded claim. That's fine.
Just letting you know, people don't swallow your
sermons.

I'm not, I just don't feel like getting sources for it. You don't have the luxury of assuming I am pulling crap out of my butt any more than I have the luxury of assuming that you will believe me. As I said before, if you want to call me out as a liar or a fraud, back it up with some sources, or admit that you don't feel like it either.

 

[Xalith]

The way I look at it is, we have chosen these dates as points in time to reflect on an event. We do it collectively as brothers and sisters with a common faith.

We do know when Christ was crucified. It was at the time of Passover. That's a simple one.

It's too bad that you are dragged to these celebrations. I am one that hates being forced to do anything that I don't want to do as well. Being dragged to a religious event, with your beliefs, would seem a bit much.

Given clues found in the Bible (Herod's death right after His birth, for one) can give us a rough 6-month ballpark figure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great

Says that according to the writings of Josephus, there are 3 possible years that Herod could have died: 5BC, 4BC, and 1BC.

4BC seems likely because an Eclipse was on March 13th, 4BC, about 29 days before Passover (Josephus wrote that Herod's death was between an eclipse and Passover).

So, if Herod died somewhere around late March to early April of 4BC, this means that Jesus was born I would estimate anytime between October of 5BC to February of 4BC. December, of course, falls right in there.

The reason I say that, is because the Bible says that Herod, once learning about the Messiah, ordered that all male children younger than 2 years old in Bethlehem be killed, and Mary, Joseph, and Jesus went to Egypt to stay there until Herod was dead. They would have needed some time to make the journey from Bethlehem to Egypt, so I'll give at least 1 month for that.

It fits the timeline. Of course, there's no hard proof that it was December 25th, but I think Christ knows that we don't know the exact date, and we just chose December 25th because it's "close enough" (and of course, Early Christians were trying to overpower/cover up pagan holidays around the same time).