Millennial Considerations

[Original Happy Camper]

In this short summary, I have only covered the high points of what the Bible says about itself. But a computer search of the entire Bible showed the following wording to be found in the Bible, as rendered in the NKJV version:

“Thus says the Lord” is found 420 times.
“The Lord spoke” is found 138 times.
“The Lord says” is found 10 times.
“The word of the Lord” is found 262 times. And four of these times add the word “God” to the end, making it “The word of the Lord God.”
“The words of the Lord” is found 19 times.
“The word of God” is found 45 times.
“The words of God” is found 6 times.
“God spoke” is found 12 times.
“God says” is found 6 times.
“The Spirit says” is found 7 times.
“The Spirit said” is found twice.
And finally, “Says the Spirit,” “The word of the Holy One,” and “The words of the Holy One” are each found once.

So “Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” (Proverbs 30:5-6)

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

What about the dietary Laws given to Moses. Jesus spoke them and Moses wrote them?
Do you believe what is posted above?

 

[Truth7t7]

Because Matthew 25:31-46 is not meaning the great white throne judgment. It is a judgment of His professed servants. That's who are being judged here. Like I have pointed out numerous times already, if the goats represent all of the wicked in general, this would have to include satan worshipers, atheists, etc.

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

It is beyond ludicrous to even remotely think satan worshipers and atheists, too, would answer Jesus in this same manner per verse 44. The text plainly and very clearly says---Then shall they also answer him. Who shall answer Him? The goats. Obviously then, in this context the goats are meaning a certain group in particular, and that it's not meaning all of the wicked unsaved in general, because to insert satan worshipers and atheists into the text in verse 44, as an example, is to make total nonsense out of the way the goats answer Jesus. The goats are meaning unprofitable servants of Christ. I'm not the only one on the planet who sees this. All one has to do is Google in order to see there are also others that come to pretty much the same conclusions about these particular texts.

I fully disagree with your interpretation.

Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same final judgment.

There is only one time the book of life is opened for "Eternal Judgment"

Matthew 25:41 the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire, the book of life is open.

Matthew 25:46 The righteous obtain "Eternal Life" the book of life is open.

You are 100% a future millennialist, you takea different approach in turning goats into a specific group, 100% wrong

The goats represent all the unsaced wicked

The sheep all those that have died in faith.

John 5:28-29 there are two groups in the future resurrection that takes place, wicked/righteous, not three or more as you teach.

Dave you have removed the clear and plain teaching of Matthew 25:31-46, to make your teaching of a earthly 1000 year kingdom work.

You agreed Matthew 25:34 was the eternal kingdom presented at the second coming, however you demand a kingdom with mortal humans present, a teaching in error.

Jesus returns in fire, dissolving this earth, 2 peter 3:10-13, 1 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, Nahum 1:5, Isaiah 24:20, Luke 17:29-30, 1 Corinthians 3:13

What you gonna do with all that fire seen in the verses above Dave, your present earth is gone, nobody survives the fire, Malachi 3:2

Your carpet that you sweep scripture under, just got burned up Dave.

 

[DavidPT]

The deception Satan was bound from is deceiving the nations to the final battle.

This has absolutely nothing to do with current acts of evil.

"Deceiving The Nations To Battle"

In verse 8 you see this deception in action

Revelation 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

If I recall, you place Revelation 20:1-6 in the spiritual realm. Apparently that's not also the case with Revelation 20:7-9 as well. You obviously place these events in the earthly realm. Amils are notorious for not remaining consistent at all times. Just like how Amils make one resurrection in Revelation 20 to not be meaning a bodily resurrection, while at the same time, making the other resurrection in Revelation 20 a bodily resurrection. When anyone else who was interpreting things in a consistent manner would conclude both resurrections in Revelation 20 are of the same type.

 

[DavidPT]

I fully disagree with your interpretation.

Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same final judgment.

There is only one time the book of life is opened for "Eternal Judgment"

Matthew 25:41 the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire, the book of life is open.

Matthew 25:46 The righteous obtain "Eternal Life" the book of life is open.

You are 100% a future millennialist, you takea different approach in turning goats into a specific group, 100% wrong

The goats represent all the unsaced wicked

The sheep all those that have died in faith.

John 5:28-29 there are two groups in the future resurrection that takes place, wicked/righteous, not three or more as you teach.

Let me put it to you like this. If I were to ever change to the Amil position some day, and believe or not, a couple of times in the past I almost did, I would still interpret the sheep and goats judgment the same way I am doing now. Which of course would bring me back to my senses, that Amil can't be correct afterall, because it can't work with my interpretation of the sheep and goats judgment.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Truth7t7]

If I recall, you place Revelation 20:1-6 in the spiritual realm. Apparently that's not also the case with Revelation 20:7-9 as well. You obviously place these events in the earthly realm. Amils are notorious for not remaining consistent at all times. Just like how Amils make one resurrection in Revelation 20 to not be meaning a bodily resurrection, while at the same time, making the other resurrection in Revelation 20 a bodily resurrection. When anyone else who was interpreting things in a consistent manner, would conclude both resurrections in Revelation 20 are of the same type.

I believe different than Barean regarding the resurrections seen in Revelation 20:1-6

The first resurrection seen is nothing more than that seen in John 5:28-29, John 6:40
The Second Resurrection is the Second Death for the wicked.

There are two future resurrections seen at the 2nd coming, last day, end of this world.

The righteous first, The wicked second death.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Truth7t7]

Let me put it to you like this. If I were to ever change to the Amil position some day, and believe or not, a couple of times in the past I almost did, I would still interpret the sheep and goats judgment the same way I am doing now. Which of course would bring me back to my senses, that Amil can't be correct afterall, because it can't work with my interpretation of the sheep and goats judgment.

Your 100% correct Dave, your interpretation is 100% error in my opinion, as you create groups within righteous and wicked?

There are only two groups, those who have their names in the book of life, and those that dont simple.

I was a dispy for 20 years, because its the prominent eschatolofy today, being pushed by the media. In my day it was the movie series "A Thief In The Night" now its Tim La Haye left behind series, a literal 1000 year kingdom is part of the Dispy platform.

I didnt have a clue of Darby/Scofield/Dallas Theological etc.

I couldnt get passed 2 Thessalonians 2:3, as the bible teaches the church would be present to see the antichrist.

The literal 1000 year kingdom on this earth is a joke, not seen in Revelation 20:1-6, as those that misrepresent the eternal kingdom for a false earthly.

Matthew 25:31-46 the eternal starts

2 Peter 3:10-13 The earth is dissolved gone, at the second advent,

A literal earthly kingdom, with mortal humans present, as Jews sacrifice bulls and goats in blood sacrifice is a joke!

 

[seventysevens]

Your 100% correct Dave, your interpretation is 100% error in my opinion, as you create groups within righteous and wicked?

There are only two groups, those who have their names in the book of life, and those that dont simple.

I was a dispy for 20 years, because its the prominent eschatolofy today, being pushed by the media. In my day it was the movie series "A Thief In The Night" now its Tim La Haye left behind series, a literal 1000 year kingdom is part of the Dispy Zionist platform.

I didnt have a clue of Darby/Scofield/Dallas Theological etc.

I couldnt get passed 2 Thessalonians 2:3, as the bible teaches the church would be present to see the antichrist.

The problem is that people call it a Millennial kingdom or a 1000 year kingdom , but the reality is simply satan is locked away for 1000 years while Jesus begins His Kingdom that never ends

 

[DavidPT]

I fully disagree with your interpretation.

Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same final judgment.

There is only one time the book of life is opened for "Eternal Judgment"

Matthew 25:41 the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire, the book of life is open.

Matthew 25:46 The righteous obtain "Eternal Life" the book of life is open.

You are 100% a future millennialist, you takea different approach in turning goats into a specific group, 100% wrong

The goats represent all the unsaced wicked

The sheep all those that have died in faith.

John 5:28-29 there are two groups in the future resurrection that takes place, wicked/righteous, not three or more as you teach.

Dave you have removed the clear and plain teaching of Matthew 25:31-46, to make your teaching of a earthly 1000 year kingdom work.

You agreed Matthew 25:34 was the eternal kingdom presented at the second coming, however you demand a kingdom with mortal humans present, a teaching in error.

Jesus returns in fire, dissolving this earth, 2 peter 3:10-13, 1 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, Nahum 1:5, Isaiah 24:20, Luke 17:29-30, 1 Corinthians 3:13

What you gonna do with all that fire seen in the verses above Dave, your present earth is gone, nobody survives the fire, Malachi 3:2

Your carpet that you sweep scripture under, just got burned up Dave.

Your mistake is thinking the earth literally goes up in flames and that everybody alive on the planet are turned to ashes. You apparently must not believe Revelation 19 has anything to do with the 2nd coming. Because if you did, you would see that nowhere in that chapter is the earth ever depicted as going up in flames and it's inhabitants burnt to ashes. Instead, those Jesus kills, they become food for the birds.

 

[Truth7t7]

We will disagree with your interpretation of goats, and the Lords fire in judgment at his return, Dave you are grasping at straws trying to keep your earthly kingdom alive, its gone!

Revelation 21:1-5 "The Former Earth Passed Away" "Behold I Make All Things New" these words are faithful and true.

Jesus returns in fire, dissolving this earth, 2 Peter 3:10-13, 1 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, Nahum 1:5, Isaiah 24:20, Luke 17:29-30, 1 Corinthians 3:13

What you gonna do with all that fire seen in the verses above Dave, your present earth is gone, nobody survives the fire, Malachi 3:2

Your mistake is thinking the earth literally goes up in flames and that everybody alive on the planet are turned to ashes. You apparently must not believe Revelation 19 has anything to do with the 2nd coming. Because if you did, you would see that nowhere in that chapter is the earth ever depicted as going up in flames and it's inhabitants burnt to ashes. Instead, those Jesus kills, they become food for the birds.

 

[DavidPT]

I believe different than Barean regarding the resurrections seen in Revelation 20:1-6

The first resurrection seen is nothing more than that seen in John 5:28-29, John 6:40
The Second Resurrection is the Second Death for the wicked.

There are two future resurrections seen at the 2nd coming, last day, end of this world.

The righteous first, The wicked second death.

Yet Revelation 20 places a thousand years between the two. How are you getting around that?

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

In this verse, the part about the rest of the dead, this is meaning the resurrection unto damnation. The first resurrection is meaning the resurrection unto life, and that the text indicates that the rest of the dead don't get resurrected when those of the first resurrection do, but that they are resurrected after the thousand years have finished.

This is the first resurrection---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years----Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


This is the 2nd resurrection----But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

As can be clearly seen, those of the first resurrection, in order to reign with Christ a thousand years, and in order for the rest of the dead to not rise until the thousand years are finished, this requires that the first resurrection takes place a thousand years earlier than the 2nd resurrection. Totally impossible for them to reign with Christ a thousand years without first being resurrected, that according to the text.

The chronology is apparently this---the first resurrection takes place, these live and reign with Christ a thousand years. When the thousand years are finished, then the rest of the dead also live again.

 

[LastSeven]

Hello LastSeven..... you say...

"Stephen, thanks for that link but I'm obviously not going to refute an entire article that wasn't even written by you. If you'd like to debate any points on amil, then feel free to ask me in your own words to refute any particular problems you see with the position. That way we can focus on one issue at a time.

You say that amils seem to spend most of their time attacking rather than reconciling scriptures, and you muse that "maybe they cannot". Well, I think it's a bit of an insult to suggest that people like myself would cling to a position even if we can not reconcile it. That would be stupid. Why would I cling to something I can't reconcile with scripture? Wouldn't that be akin to throwing out the scriptures altogether?

I'll admit that not everything is easily explained, but then neither is that the case for the premil position, and in my opinion there are far more numerous and far more obvious problems with the premil position, and that's why I believe we are now in the millennium. It's not because I just want to be confrontational, or because I've just arbitrarily picked this position even though I'm too lazy to reconcile it. I'm amil because it makes the most sense to me, and if you want to know why, all you have to do is ask.

LastSeven"

Now to my mind this sounds like a more reasonable position..... as I also am always open to correction an training in righteousness.

You said to ask ..... so for starters.... you believe that we are currently in the Millennium and that Satan is currently bound ? that He was 'bound' when Jesus died on the cross ?

Well the binding could not be working because...

Really ? do you see the evidence of this in the world around you ? I assure you that Satan is deceiving the nations like never before ....

In fact we are moving to the time of the anti-christ with alarming speed..... the evidence of what is going on in the world around us should be sufficient for us to see that far from being bound..... Satan is more active than ever before..... because he knoweth that he has but a short time.

I kinda figured you'd go with that question first. This seems to be the one sticking point that makes people think the amil position is ludicrous. And I'm speaking from experience because this was also my first thought when presented with amillenialism. I thought, "that's absurd because obviously there's still a lot of evil in the world".

Until I realized that there is no requirement that the millennium is free of evil. Nowhere in scripture does it say that the thousand years is free of evil. It only says that Satan is bound.

Satan is bound in the sense that he has no authority over the saints. He is limited in what he can do because we have authority over him. He used to be in charge here, but now he is spiritually bound by the victory of Jesus over death.

After Jesus was resurrected he said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matthew 28:18), and when the 72 disciples came back to him they said "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name". (Luke 10:17) This is because both Jesus and the saints now have authority over Satan and his demons.

If we have authority then that means we reign. You can not have authority and not reign. They go hand in hand. Therefore, if we now have authority over Satan, it is clear that we are reigning with Jesus right now.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that "reigning" refers to a reign over people. What value would that have for us? No, we reign over the spiritual forces of both good and evil.

Scripture does not say that reigning with Christ means everything is perfect. It does not say that reigning with Christ means there is no sin or tribulation. Satan still attacks us as much as possible and he still tries to deceive us. And the tares are still growing amongst us to make life difficult.

In fact, doesn't scripture make it clear that only after the thousand years Satan is thrown into the lake of fire? Only when we inherit the new earth do we have everlasting peace without tribulation of any kind. The thousand years is not the new earth. It's not paradise. It's simply the time that we have authority over Satan. That is all.

 

[LastSeven]

Hello LastSeven..... you say...

"Stephen, thanks for that link but I'm obviously not going to refute an entire article that wasn't even written by you. If you'd like to debate any points on amil, then feel free to ask me in your own words to refute any particular problems you see with the position. That way we can focus on one issue at a time.

You say that amils seem to spend most of their time attacking rather than reconciling scriptures, and you muse that "maybe they cannot". Well, I think it's a bit of an insult to suggest that people like myself would cling to a position even if we can not reconcile it. That would be stupid. Why would I cling to something I can't reconcile with scripture? Wouldn't that be akin to throwing out the scriptures altogether?

I'll admit that not everything is easily explained, but then neither is that the case for the premil position, and in my opinion there are far more numerous and far more obvious problems with the premil position, and that's why I believe we are now in the millennium. It's not because I just want to be confrontational, or because I've just arbitrarily picked this position even though I'm too lazy to reconcile it. I'm amil because it makes the most sense to me, and if you want to know why, all you have to do is ask.

LastSeven"

Now to my mind this sounds like a more reasonable position..... as I also am always open to correction an training in righteousness.

You said to ask ..... so for starters.... you believe that we are currently in the Millennium and that Satan is currently bound ? that He was 'bound' when Jesus died on the cross ?

Well the binding could not be working because...

Really ? do you see the evidence of this in the world around you ? I assure you that Satan is deceiving the nations like never before ....

In fact we are moving to the time of the anti-christ with alarming speed..... the evidence of what is going on in the world around us should be sufficient for us to see that far from being bound..... Satan is more active than ever before..... because he knoweth that he has but a short time.

By the way, when responding to a post, please use the "Reply" button. It will automatically quote the post you're replying to and makes it easier to distinguish between your words and the words you're quoting.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yet Revelation 20 places a thousand years between the two. How are you getting around that?

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finish This is the first resurrection.

In this verse, the part about the rest of the dead, this is meaning the resurrection unto damnation. The first resurrection is meaning the resurrection unto life, and that the text indicates that the rest of the dead don't get resurrected when those of the first resurrection do, but that they are resurrected after the thousand years have finished.

This is the first resurrection---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years----Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


This is the 2nd resurrection----But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

As can be clearly seen, those of the first resurrection, in order to reign with Christ a thousand years, and in order for the rest of the dead to not rise until the thousand years are finished, this requires that the first resurrection takes place a thousand years earlier than the 2nd resurrection. Totally impossible for them to reign with Christ a thousand years without first being resurrected, that according to the text.

The chronology is apparently this---the first resurrection takes place, these live and reign with Christ a thousand years. When the thousand years are finished, then the rest of the dead also live again.

There is one future resurrection of all John 5:28-29 this resurrection takes place immediately after the tribulation at the second advent, Matthew 24:29-31, Daniel 12:1-2

Those that live and reign are in the spiritual realm, and they wont receive their resurrected body until the non-literal 1000 years is finished at the second advent.

No mystery in Revelation 20:4-6 simple and straight forward.

Grasping at straws, disregarding the whole of scripture.

 

[seventysevens]

There is one future resurrection of all John 5:28-29 this resurrection takes place immediately after the tribulation at the second advent, Matthew 24:29-31, Danial 12:1-2

Those that live and reign are in the spiritual realm, and they wont receive their resurrected body until the non-literal 1000 years is finished at the second advent.

No mystery in Revelation 20:4-6 simple and straight forward.

That is incorrect again

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is incorrect again

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

There is one future resurrection of all John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2

This resurrection takes place on the "Last Day" John 6:40

At this time "Two" resurrections take place "First" the righteous to eternal life, "Second" the wicked to the lake of fire.

The righteous are blessed to be in the "First" resurrection, on them the "Second Death/Resurrection" has no power.

 

[seventysevens]

There is one future resurrection of all, at this time "Two" resurrections take place "First" the righteous to eternal life, "Second" the wicked to the lake of fire.

The righteous are blessed to be in the "First" resurrection, on them the secon death/resurrection has no power.

There is 1000 years from the time first resurrection happens to the time the second resurrection happens

1000 years after the first resurrection happens then the second resurrection happens

People in the first resurrection spend eternity with Christ
people in the second resurrection that are the second death that spend eternity in damnation

 

[DavidPT]

There is one future resurrection of all John 5:28-29 this resurrection takes place immediately after the tribulation at the second advent, Matthew 24:29-31, Daniel 12:1-2

Those that live and reign are in the spiritual realm, and they wont receive their resurrected body until the non-literal 1000 years is finished at the second advent.

No mystery in Revelation 20:4-6 simple and straight forward.

Grasping at straws, disregarding the whole of scripture.

It seems to me then, this would make those of the first resurrection also of those of the rest of the dead. The text indicates it is only the rest of the dead who lived again after the thousand years are finished. It doesn't say those of the first resurrection also don't live again until the thousand years are finished.

BTW, a person only needs to live again only one time, not multiple times. If as of the first resurrection these live again, they don't need to live yet again as well when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years are finished. When Jesus lived again, that only required one resurrection. He wasn't spiritually resurrected then later on bodily resurrected. One would think our resurrection would be patterned after His.

 

[Truth7t7]

It seems to me then, this would make those of the first resurrection also of those of the rest of the dead. The text indicates it is only the rest of the dead who lived again after the thousand years are finished. It doesn't say those of the first resurrection also don't live again until the thousand years are finished.

BTW, a person only needs to live again only one time, not multiple times. If as of the first resurrection these live again, they don't need to live yet again as well when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years are finished. When Jesus lived again, that only required one resurrection. He wasn't spiritually resurrected then later on bodily resurrected. One would think our resurrection would be patterned after His.

Human reason again Dave, whose living again, resurrection?

What can I see to keep my 1000 year kingdom alive?

Dave saved believers are living and reigning with Christ in his spiritual kingdom presently, Jesus Christ has overcome and currently sits on the throne reigning as King.

The believer has been translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, as we are currently in his eternal spiritual kingdom.

Its in the future Jesus Christ Will remove all things that offend/wicked, he will do so by fire 2 Peter 3:10, all men's works are judged by this fire, no man will escape 1 Corinthians 3:13, Malachi 3:2

You want to have multiple times of different resurrections, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2, John 6:40 teaches otherwise.

John 6:40 places the resurrection at "The Last Day"

Matthew 24:29-31 places the resurrection "immediately after the tribulation"

Daniel 12:1-2 is in perfect agreement, and also shows the final judgment takes place also, as the book of life is open at the resurrection.

You sweep this scripture under your magic carpet, that's as high as a pitchers mound.

There are Two resurrections that take place on the last day, "First" the righteous to eternal life, "Second" the wicked to the lake of fire.

The righteous are blessed to be in the "First" resurrection, on such the "Second Death/Resurrection has no power.