Millennial Considerations

[LastSeven]

One problem about now being in the millennium is this. The 42 month reign of the beast precedes the 2nd coming. According To Revelation 20:4, that verse places the time of the beast in Revelation 13 prior to satan being loosed. The time of the beast in Revelation 13 can't happen while satan is in the pit.

I disagree with your assertion that Revelation 13 doesn't work if Satan is bound. Keep in mind that Satan is spiritually bound. He's lost access to heaven and no longer accuses us before the throne, and in Christ we have authority over him, but he can still cause havoc down here on earth with those who allow him to.

What beast, what image, what mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands? How about Revelation 13 explaining these things? Does not then Revelation 20:4 clearly place the time of Revelation 13 as being already in the past and fulfilled before satan is even loosed

I agree that Revelation 13 is in the past, but probably also in the present. Keeping in mind that not everything is easily explained. And many things we can only speculate about. Like what is the beast, what is meant by the image that speaks, what is meant by buying and selling? These things are not easy to understand, but we have to always remember to interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture.

And the most clear scriptures in regard to the millennium are that Satan is bound, Christ is reigning, and we have been spiritually resurrected already with a new life in Christ. Those three facts are indisputable and with those things in mind we have to try to interpret those other, more difficult passages.

The mark upon the forehead and hands is pretty easy to explain however.

 

[LastSeven]

On the other hand the Spiritualizing of literal passages so common with the Amils in NOT intuitive

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to spiritualize scripture when the entire book is about spiritual warfare.

 

[LastSeven]

...in the middle of the trib, we see that he is contained even more, limited to just being on the earth and not able to go through out the universe...

That's already happened.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is 1000 years from the time first resurrection happens to the time the second resurrection happens

1000 years after the first resurrection happens then the second resurrection happens

People in the first resurrection spend eternity with Christ
people in the second resurrection that are the second death that spend eternity in damnation

The bible teaches the resurrection takes place on the "Last Day" John 6:40

you teach in error that time exist beyond this.

 

[LastSeven]

To be bound "in chains" means literally to be imprisoned to be disallowed freedom , if satan were to be currently bound he would not be able to deceive anybody , which shows that satan is not currently bound as satan is still actively deceiving many people all over the world

You're looking at the binding from a human point of view. Satan is a spiritual being. Surely you can understand that there's a difference. Besides, as others have already pointed out, the scriptures clearly tell us that Satan has been defeated and bound. Just because those scriptures don't seem to mesh with your understanding of what a binding is, doesn't mean he's not bound.

 

[LastSeven]

The simple fact that satan has not ever in the history of the earth been locked up in the abyss No not yet! He is as he has always been free to roam the earth seeking who he can deceive.

I know this binding of Satan is the stumbling block for premils but if you look at the following you may be able to see it from a different point of view and, if not agree with, at least understand the amil position.

1. In order for Jesus to have all the authority, he must first bind the strong man

Mark 3:27
In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house.

2. Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

3. When Satan fell from heaven, Jesus received his authority.

Revelation 12:8
But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb

Notice that Revelation 12 says “Now has come the authority of the Messiah”. This is exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me”. This links the two passages together on the timeline, and confirms that Satan was cast out of heaven when Jesus was sacrificed and resurrected.

Since Jesus can not have authority and power without first binding the strong man, and Jesus has received his authority and power, we can know that he has bound the strong man. But how is he bound? He is bound to earth, with no authority over Christ or those who believe in Him.

 

[DavidPT]

Dave saved believers are living and reigning with Christ in his kingdom presently, Jesus Christ has overcome and currently sits on the throne reigning as King.

The believer has been translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

You want to have multiple times of different resurrections, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2, John 6:40 teaches otherwise.

John 6:40 places the resurrection at "The Last Day"

Matthew 24:29-31 places the resurrection "immediately after the tribulation"

Daniel 12:1-2 is in perfect agreement, and also shows the final judgment takes place also, as the book of life is open at the resurrection.

You sweep this scripture under your magic carpet, that's as high as a pitchers mound.

There are Two resurrections that take place on the last day, "First" the righteous to eternal life, "Second" the wicked to the lake of fire.

The righteous are blessed to be in the "First" resurrection, on such the "Second Death/Resurrection has no power.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


When John initially sees these as souls, he is seeing them in their physically dead state. When John sees these same ones living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, he is seeing them in their bodily resurrected state. No one is sitting on thrones in heaven reigning with Christ a thousand years in heaven. The 5th seal depicts the exact opposite, actually.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


These are seen under the altar, and not sitting and reigning on thrones. They are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, when their fellowservants also and their brethren, are also killed, do these join these in this rest for a little season, or do these instead join with Christ and reign on thrones with Him for a thousand years? Obviously their fellowservants also and their brethren, when they are killed, they join these that are seen under the altar, and join them in this rest for a little season. But if not, what makes these latter martyrs more privileged than the former ones, in that the former ones don't also sit on thrones reigning with Christ a thousand years, but are instead told to rest a little season, which BTW, resting a little season hardly depicts anyone reigning on thrones.

 

[seventysevens]

The bible teaches the resurrection takes place on the "Last Day" John 6:40

you teach in error that time exist beyond this.

The problem you continue to have is that the scripture specifically identifies 1000 years of time passes from the first resurrection to the second resurrection , it seems it is apparent you don't want that 1000 year time to exist --but IT DOES
The bible teaches that there is 1000 years that satan is locked away and 1000 years later he is allowed to go out and deceive who he can
It your error in teaching that you knowingly insist that the scripture that says point blank 1000 later satan is allowed to deceive people is there but you pretend that it is not there

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


When John initially sees these as souls, he is seeing them in their physically dead state. When John sees these same ones living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, he is seeing them in their bodily resurrected state. No one is sitting on thrones in heaven reigning with Christ a thousand years in heaven. The 5th seal depicts the exact opposite, actually.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


These are seen under the altar, and not sitting and reigning on thrones. They are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, when their fellowservants also and their brethren, are also killed, do these join these in this rest for a little season, or do these instead join with Christ and reign on thrones with Him for a thousand years? Obviously their fellowservants also and their brethren, when they are killed, they join these that are seen under the altar, and join them in this rest for a little season. But if not, what makes these latter martyrs more privileged than the former ones, in that the former ones don't also sit on thrones reigning with Christ a thousand years, but are instead told to rest a little season, which BTW, resting a little season hardly depicts anyone reigning on thrones.

You claim John sees resurrected bodies of a believer in Revelation 20:4?

Your claim is 100% in error, as the resurrection of the tribulation saint believer, and all believers, takes place at the "Last Day" as John 6:40 teaches.

Its you private interpretation that resurrected bodies are seen, in disregard of Jesus Christ teaching in John 6:40

Dave you have a predetermined bias to sweep John 6:40 under the carpet, it's that of a future 1000 year kingdom on this earth, found no place in the scripture.

Will you now try to reinterpret "Last Day" grasping at straws, or just leave this scriptural truth under your carpet?

 

[seventysevens]

You're looking at the binding from a human point of view. Satan is a spiritual being. Surely you can understand that there's a difference. Besides, as others have already pointed out, the scriptures clearly tell us that Satan has been defeated and bound. Just because those scriptures don't seem to mesh with your understanding of what a binding is, doesn't mean he's not bound.

The point I make is as always is that satan is not permitted to deceive people for 1000 years , after 1000 years he is then permitted to deceive people
angels do have a form of body , they can take human form , then there are those demons that are now locked up in the abyss that will be released during the wrath of God ,spirits are not some disembodied thing , just because they are in a dimension that humans cannot see right now they exist with a body

 

[DavidPT]

I know this binding of Satan is the stumbling block for premils but if you look at the following you may be able to see it from a different point of view and, if not agree with, at least understand the amil position.

1. In order for Jesus to have all the authority, he must first bind the strong man

Mark 3:27
In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house.

The problem with that reasoning is this. According to the text satan is loosed, which obviously means he is no longer bound. You indicated--- In order for Jesus to have all the authority, he must first bind the strong man. Ok then, does that mean when satan is no longer bound, Jesus no longer has all authority? Wouldn't that be the logical conclusion, assuming you are correct here? But if He still retains all authority regardless whether satan is loosed or whether satan is bound, what exactly is your point then?

 

[seventysevens]

I know this binding of Satan is the stumbling block for premils but if you look at the following you may be able to see it from a different point of view and, if not agree with, at least understand the amil position.

1. In order for Jesus to have all the authority, he must first bind the strong man

Mark 3:27
In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house.

2. Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

3. When Satan fell from heaven, Jesus received his authority.

Revelation 12:8
But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb

Notice that Revelation 12 says “Now has come the authority of the Messiah”. This is exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me”. This links the two passages together on the timeline, and confirms that Satan was cast out of heaven when Jesus was sacrificed and resurrected.

Since Jesus can not have authority and power without first binding the strong man, and Jesus has received his authority and power, we can know that he has bound the strong man. But how is he bound? He is bound to earth, with no authority over Christ or those who believe in Him.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to spiritualize scripture when the entire book is about spiritual warfare.

You have a spirit , you are a spirit being with a human body , the spirit is eternal , but to spiritulize things is the excuse that amil use to explain away things they choose not to believe is real and literal
Jesus when he walked through a door without it being opened had a physical body though he was spirit , he told doubting Thomas to touch him as His body was real

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus when he walked through a door without it being opened had a physical body though he was spirit , he told doubting Thomas to touch him as His body was real

Good point. If this doesn't prove what you were concluding overall, I guess nothing can.

 

[BABerean2]

The problem with that reasoning is this. According to the text satan is loosed, which obviously means he is no longer bound. You indicated--- In order for Jesus to have all the authority, he must first bind the strong man. Ok then, does that mean when satan is no longer bound, Jesus no longer has all authority? Wouldn't that be the logical conclusion, assuming you are correct here?

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Where is the beast now?

.

 

[seventysevens]

The problem with that reasoning is this. According to the text satan is loosed, which obviously means he is no longer bound. You indicated--- In order for Jesus to have all the authority, he must first bind the strong man. Ok then, does that mean when satan is no longer bound, Jesus no longer has all authority? Wouldn't that be the logical conclusion, assuming you are correct here?

You misunderstand what I say or the scripture
When Jesus returns to take control of what is happening on earth - it is at that time he binds satan to the pit , meaning satan is no longer able to have access to any humans to deceive them for a period of 1000 years , then he is released to deceive people , I have never even hinted at Jesus not having all authority
Do you recall the Centurion asking Jesus for help , When someone has all authority it means they make the decisions of who is to do what , like a boss manager determines who is team lead

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[DavidPT]

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Where is the beast now?

.

Clearly this is referring to Revelation 13 for one. According to Revelation 20:4, John placed the time of Revelation 13 prior to the time of satan's loosing. Revelation 13 cannot come to pass while satan is in the pit. Satan has to be loosed when this chapter is fulfilled. This obviously places the time of Revelation 13 as occurring before the beginning of the thousand years, therefore proving Premil and disproving Amil.


and I saw the souls of them ------which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

If this did not take place during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, where are the Scriptures showing when it did take place then? Who does the text indicate lives and reigns with Christ a thousand years? Is it not those which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands? Does or does not the thousand years precede satan's little season?

You in particular are always pointing out how others are ignoring this or that in order to make their theories work. But you're not doing the same thing yourself at times? Aren't you ignoring the fact that John places the time of Revelation 13 prior to satan's little season and that Revelation 13 can't be fulfilled while satan is bound, therefore the only logical place the events of Revelation 13 can fit is before the beginning of the thousand years?

 

[BABerean2]

Clearly this is referring to Revelation 13 for one. According to Revelation 20:4, John placed the time of Revelation 13 prior to the time of satan's loosing. Revelation 13 cannot come to pass while satan is in the pit. Satan has to be loosed when this chapter is fulfilled. This obviously places the time of Revelation 13 as occurring before the beginning of the thousand years, therefore proving Premil and disproving Amil.


and I saw the souls of them ------which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

If this did not take place during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, where are the Scriptures showing when it did take place then? Who does the text indicate lives and reigns with Christ a thousand years? Is it not those which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands? Does or does not the thousand years precede satan's little season?

You in particular are always pointing out how others are ignoring this or that in order to make their theories work. But you're not doing the same thing yourself at times? Aren't you ignoring the fact that John places the time of Revelation 13 prior to satan's little season and that Revelation 13 can't be fulfilled while satan is bound, therefore the only logical place the events of Revelation 13 can fit is before the beginning of the thousand years?

It is you who is attempting to ignore where the beast is now...


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.




.

 

[seventysevens]

It is you who is attempting to ignore where the beast is now...


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


.

Satan is short for Ha~satan which means 'the accuser of the brethren'
satan is free to roam the earth right now and when he sees people sinning he goes to the throne of the courtroom of God and presents the accusations about the sins a person has committed , as in the case of Job , he was accusing Job of only praising God because God was blessing Job well and satan made the accusation that if Job was to lose all he would curse God

 

[DavidPT]

It is you who is attempting to ignore where the beast is now...


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.




.

Obviously the beast is initially in the pit, and is then released, this occurring in this age. But the beast in the pit is not meaning satan though, if that's what you are ultimately implying.