Millennial Considerations

[Marilyn C]

Hebrews 11:40

(CJB) because God had planned something better that would involve us, so that only with us would they be brought to the goal.

(ESV) since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

(Geneva) God prouiding a better thing for vs, that they without vs should not be made perfite.

(GW) God planned to give us something very special so that we would gain eternal life with them.

(LITV-TSP) God having foreseen something better concerning us, that they should not be perfected apart from us.

(KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

(KJV+) GodG2316 having providedG4265 someG5100 better thingG2909 forG4012 us,G2257 thatG2443 they withoutG5565 usG2257 should notG3361 be made perfect.G5048

(NKJV) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

(YLT) God for us something better having provided, that apart from us they might not be made perfect.


The verse is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.
We will be one with the Old Testament Saints.

.

Thank you bro for all those variations on Heb.11: 40.

So are you telling me that that `oneness` means we have the same inheritance, promises?
Also if we are one then why did not God make us all one many centuries before and work so long with the Nation of Israel if He knew they were not going to receive Him?
Why not just start off with the Body of Christ in the first place?

Marilyn.

 

[Truth7t7]

You keep indicating I'm creating 3 groups. Except it's actually 4 groups at least, not 3. 1---the sheep. 2---the goats. 3----the rest of the dead who don't live again until the thousand years are finished. 4----mortals remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem(Zechariah 14).

There may be more groups, too, but at least 4 as a minimum. Your number 3 above, they would likely fit with the 3rd group, the rest of the dead. I don't take the group wicked to account for everyone who do not fit into the sheep or goats groups though. There has also to be some remaining mortals that fit group 4.

There are "Two Groups" Revelation 20:11-15

1. Names In The Book Of Life/ Sheep

2. Names Not In The Book Of Life/Goats

You Have A Completely Private Interpretation Not Found In Scripture.

You Have No Explanation For The Book Of Life, that teaches "Two Groups"

Your Interpretation Stands Above The Book Of Life, A Dangerous Stand!

 

[Marilyn C]

There are "Two Groups" Revelation 20:11-15

1. Names In The Book Of Life/ Sheep

2. Names Not In The Book Of Life/Goats

You Have A Completely Private Interpretation Not Found In Scripture.

You Have No Explanation For The Book Of Life, that teaches "Two Groups"

Your Interpretation Stands Above The Book Of Life, A Dangerous Stand!

Bro you are on shaky ground as you are saying that people can get into the book of life because of `GOOD WORKS!!!!`

 

[BABerean2]

Thank you bro for all those variations on Heb.11: 40.

So are you telling me that that `oneness` means we have the same inheritance, promises?
Also if we are one then why did not God make us all one many centuries before and work so long with the Nation of Israel if He knew they were not going to receive Him?
Why not just start off with the Body of Christ in the first place?

Marilyn.

Throughout the history of the nation of Israel there were two different groups of Israelites.
One group rejected God and the other group remained faithful to God.

During the Exodus Korah led a rebellion against Moses, while others remained faithful.

During the time of Elijah most had turned to Baal worship, while the remnant of 7,000 remained faithful.
In Romans 11 Paul said the same was true during his time and the same is true today.

All of the nation of Israel did not reject Christ.

In the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 God deals with individuals, based on faith.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Based on what Christ said on the road to Emmaus, the whole Old Testament is about Him.
Luke 24:25-27.

The purpose of the nation of Israel was to produce the seed of the woman from Genesis 3:15.

He is the seed of Abraham through which all the nations would be blessed in Genesis chapter 12.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

[iamlamad]

I just started this topic on my Bible Blog with a view to comparing the various beliefs.... one of the biggest problems I find when people start constructing explanations of passages is that anyone can have a go at it.... and there can be as many 'interpretations' as there are people !

Therefore I have to adopt the LITERAL approach (where possible)..... I am absolutely convinced that the Bible is written to be understood by average humans.... it is counterproductive to suppose that God would communicate in such an obscure way that we would have to 'invent' an interpretation to make a passage agree with our 'conceived storyline'.

The evidence suggests that God talks to humans in plain language so as to ensure both understanding and compliance...... it is us, people, who would want to construct alternative interpretations.... so we could either justify ourselves for non-compliance or at least excuse ourselves for misinterpretation and/or lack of understanding the instructions.

Starting with a literal reading of the text (and only interpreting obvious non-literal parts to fit with the literal parts) has to be the 'proper' approach..... the approach that God expects.... otherwise the Bible has NO 'authority' at all ..... and we can make Bible say whatever we want..... and it's quite obvious to me that many groups of people have done that and are quite happy about it too.

Stephen's Bible Insights

I think it would be a fallacy to believe Isaiah was written in Chronological order. Revelation is.

 

[LastSeven]

Your views of "Soul Sleep" & "Hell" match the teachings of Ellen G. White in 7th day Adventism to a capital "T"

I believe 7th day Adventism is nothing more than a Cult, just as the JW'S and Mormons are.

Well if my beliefs match 7th day adventists then those are some smart people in that church.

Except there's at least one thing they and I disagree on. I don't believe in church. They do.

 

[seventysevens]

I said I believe the lake of fire is "real" but it's probably more symbolic than literal. So it's real in the sense that there is a real punishment reserved for certain people.

I don't know anything about 7th day adventist beliefs, and I don't care either. I just believe what I believe.

As for hell, you might want to do some research. It's not what you think.

Wrong!

How would you know what I think Until I tell you ?

You simply misunderstand what Ps139:8 means , God is omnipresent , God is everywhere just as God is omnipotent , God created hell and he created the lake of fire for satan and the angels that followed satan .

Think of a prison with it's tall walls and buildings and high barbed wire fences and when people say someone is sent to prison they mean they are a prisoner , locked down unable to leave .
The prison warden and all those people who work there are in the prison as well; they walk the same halls and floors and buildings ; but they are not prisoners as they are there to and run the place ,
When Ps 139 says God is in hell it means he is overseeing hell , God is omnipresent he is not sent there as others there are as prisoners.

Hell is a real place of torment and so is the lake of fire , since it is located in another realm we cannot know specifics other than what scripture declares it to be ; but it repeatedly says it is a place of torment and weeping and of gnashing of teeth , temperatures that are extremely uncomfortable ; a most undesirable place to be

I use an analogy- say you are having financial problems and someone gives you a lottery ticket and tells you that with it all will be well with you. You being a scoffer think that lottery ticket is of no value at all, and scoffing give it to the first person that passes by you -kinda laughing about it as someone suggested it would make your life better . Then you see on TV the person whom you gave that lottery ticket to has won the $850 Million dollar prize , you like most would be seeing that it would have been you as the winner if you hadn't scoffed had simply accepted that gift.

That simply comparing the gift of salvation that Jesus is offering for free and people in hell and lake of fire will lament and be tormented every minute of everyday non-stop for eternity - it never ends; the torment of knowing what they could of had and never will because of something as simple as a choice they made not to follow what Lord Almighty said. Merry Christmas

 

[LastSeven]

Hell is exactly as Luke 16:19-31 states, pretty clear, a place of torment as the burning flame, taught from the creator Jesus Christ himself.

That's obviously a parable, unless you think people in heaven and people in hell are close enough together that they can see each other and talk to each other, and that a drop of water would quench the thirst or relieve the torment of hell.

The lake of fire, no guess work there either
Revelation 14:10-11

Ya, as long as you take everything literally, you don't have to even use your brain.

"Soul Sleep" not found in the scripture.

Of course it is.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Daniel 12:13
“As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

There is plenty of other evidence in scripture, but of course, you think I'm just making it all up.

After the unsaved leave this body, its hell

Now that is not in scripture.

After the saved leave this body, Abrahams Boosom.

Also not in scripture.

Both waiting for the resurrection and final judgment.

Now this I can agree with, but it doesn't appear that you do because you just said the wicked go to hell immediately upon death and the righteous go immediately to "abraham's bossom", whatever that is. So you're saying that people are judged and punished or rewarded immediately upon death. So in your world there's no reason for judgment day.

In your world there's also no reason for a resurrection because according to you we live as immortal spirits immediately after death. So what's the point of the resurrection?

Name In The Book Of Life: New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem Revelation chapters 21 & 22

Name Not In The Book Of Life: Lake Of Fire, Revelation 20:11-15

Yup. No argument there.

 

[LastSeven]

Wrong!

How would you know what I think Until I tell you ?

You think hell is a place of torment. That's pretty obvious. And as I said, hell is not what you think.

You simply misunderstand what Ps139:8 means , God is omnipresent , God is everywhere just as God is omnipotent , God created hell and he created the lake of fire for satan and the angels that followed satan .

Think of a prison with it's tall walls and buildings and high barbed wire fences and when people say someone is sent to prison they mean they are a prisoner , locked down unable to leave .
The prison warden and all those people who work there are in the prison as well; they walk the same halls and floors and buildings ; but they are not prisoners as they are there to and run the place ,
When Ps 139 says God is in hell it means he is overseeing hell , God is omnipresent he is not sent there as others there are as prisoners.

Hell is a real place of torment and so is the lake of fire , since it is located in another realm we cannot know specifics other than what scripture declares it to be ; but it repeatedly says it is a place of torment and weeping and of gnashing of teeth , temperatures that are extremely uncomfortable ; a most undesirable place to be

I use an analogy- say you are having financial problems and someone gives you a lottery ticket and tells you that with it all will be well with you. You being a scoffer think that lottery ticket is of no value at all, and scoffing give it to the first person that passes by you -kinda laughing about it as someone suggested it would make your life better . Then you see on TV the person whom you gave that lottery ticket to has won the $850 Million dollar prize , you like most would be seeing that it would have been you as the winner if you hadn't scoffed had simply accepted that gift.

That simply comparing the gift of salvation that Jesus is offering for free and people in hell and lake of fire will lament and be tormented every minute of everyday non-stop for eternity - it never ends; the torment of knowing what they could of had and never will because of something as simple as a choice they made not to follow what Lord Almighty said. Merry Christmas

So you think God walks around in a place of torment overseeing the people who are in torment. Interesting.

 

[seventysevens]

You think hell is a place of torment. That's pretty obvious. And as I said, hell is not what you think.

So you think God walks around in a place of torment overseeing the people who are in torment. Interesting.

This post not only reveals the error of your thinking , it also truly reveals that you have not read the scripture to really know and understand what it says or means ,
soul sleep is ridiculous as you seem not able to see that when the body dies it appears to be sleeping , but the body is dead but the soul/spirit leave the body and are gone to the place of where they are to be - as the scripture says "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

The soul/spirit go into the presence of the Lord or into the presence of the hell , If a person is a follower of Christ they will be with Christ for eternity from the moment of their death , if a person does not repent and accept Christ as savoir they go into hell and will be judged at the great white throne judgment and be cast into the lake of fire then
A HUGE difference with the way some people study scripture and other religions is as when person simply wants to know what various religious teaching teach they'll study and compare and get an academic and/or carnal understanding ;- but when a person truly sees that their own life is a mess and they truly repent and desire to serve God with all their heart - all their mid- all of their self and die to the carnal self then the Holy spirit will reveal things they could not see prior to giving their self -all of self unto God , as long as a man still tries to figure it all out by their own level of reasoning they willnot understand some of what the scripture teaches
You read scripture - but you don't see what it teaches as you only seek out what men who were not inspired by the Holy Spirit have taught

 

[Truth7t7]

Bro you are on shaky ground as you are saying that people can get into the book of life because of `GOOD WORKS!!!!`

I would appreciate if you "Stop The Bro" thing with me, thanks.

You are jumping in mid stream, and don't have a clue on what's going on.

Once again I request you stop the Bro, thanks

 

[Truth7t7]

You

That's obviously a parable, unless you think people in heaven and people in hell are close enough together that they can see each other and talk to each other, and that a drop of water would quench the thirst or relieve the torment of hell.

Ya, as long as you take everything literally, you don't have to even use your brain.

Of course it is.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Daniel 12:13
“As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

There is plenty of other evidence in scripture, but of course, you think I'm just making it all up.


Now that is not in scripture.

Also not in scripture.

Now this I can agree with, but it doesn't appear that you do because you just said the wicked go to hell immediately upon death and the righteous go immediately to "abraham's bossom", whatever that is. So you're saying that people are judged and punished or rewarded immediately upon death. So in your world there's no reason for judgment day.

In your world there's also no reason for a resurrection because according to you we live as immortal spirits immediately after death. So what's the point of the resurrection?
Yup. No argument there.

You believe in "Soul Sleep" and deny "Hell"

Your arguments and teaching are exactly the same as the Ellen G. White, 7th Day Adventist.

We will disagree, the horse is dead

 

[DavidPT]

You

You believe in "Soul Sleep" and deny "Hell"

Your arguments and teaching are exactly the same as the Ellen G. White, 7th Day Adventist.

We will disagree, the horse is dead

If one believes in a literal place named Abraham's bosom, one thing that is obvious would be this, there couldn't be such a place until there was first an Abraham to name this place after. Take Adam then, for instance. He was already long dead and gone before Abraham was ever born. So where did he go when he died? Couldn't have been to a place that didn't even exist yet, that assuming this place eventually begins existing sometime after Abraham is born. So where did Adam go upon death?

 

[Truth7t7]

If one believes in a literal place named Abraham's bosom, one thing that is obvious would be this, there couldn't be such a place until there was first an Abraham to name this place after. Take Adam then, for instance. He was already long dead and gone before Abraham was ever born. So where did he go when he died? Couldn't have been to a place that didn't even exist yet, that assuming this place eventually begins existing sometime after Abraham is born. So where did Adam go upon death?

To be absent from the body, present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

To state Abrahams Bossom is a figure of speech in biblical reference to Luke 16:19-31

If you would like to use the term " Present With The Lord" we can use that, if it helps your rational, human reasoning

As Luke 16:19-31 clearly shows a place of comfort for the righteous, and a place of torment "Hell" for the wicked.

 

[LastSeven]

This post not only reveals the error of your thinking , it also truly reveals that you have not read the scripture to really know and understand what it says or means ,
soul sleep is ridiculous as you seem not able to see that when the body dies it appears to be sleeping , but the body is dead but the soul/spirit leave the body and are gone to the place of where they are to be - as the scripture says "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

The soul/spirit go into the presence of the Lord or into the presence of the hell , If a person is a follower of Christ they will be with Christ for eternity from the moment of their death , if a person does not repent and accept Christ as savoir they go into hell and will be judged at the great white throne judgment and be cast into the lake of fire then
A HUGE difference with the way some people study scripture and other religions is as when person simply wants to know what various religious teaching teach they'll study and compare and get an academic and/or carnal understanding ;- but when a person truly sees that their own life is a mess and they truly repent and desire to serve God with all their heart - all their mid- all of their self and die to the carnal self then the Holy spirit will reveal things they could not see prior to giving their self -all of self unto God , as long as a man still tries to figure it all out by their own level of reasoning they willnot understand some of what the scripture teaches
You read scripture - but you don't see what it teaches as you only seek out what men who were not inspired by the Holy Spirit have taught

Without any scriptural support this is nothing but drivel. If you want to debate this, give me something to consider.

 

[LastSeven]

You

You believe in "Soul Sleep" and deny "Hell"

Your arguments and teaching are exactly the same as the Ellen G. White, 7th Day Adventist.

We will disagree, the horse is dead

Why should I care who Ellen G White is? I only care what the Bible teaches. If you don't want to even look at these issues then how can you be sure that you're right?

 

[DavidPT]

To be absent from the body, present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

To state Abrahams Bossom is a figure of speech in biblical reference to Luke 16:19-31

If you would like to use the term " Present With The Lord" we can use that, if it helps your rational, human reasoning

As Luke 16:19-31 clearly shows a place of comfort for the righteous, and a place of torment "Hell" for the wicked.

In order for a position such as Amil to be legit, souls can't literally be going to heaven upon death. Because if they are, this leads to nothing but Catholic dogma nonsense, the fact these souls would be priests of God and Christ while being souls in heaven without physical bodies yet. Everything in Revelation 20:6 has to also apply to the souls John initially sees in Revelation 20:4.

Per a position such as Premil, if souls literally go to heaven upon death, it doesn't matter, because Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 20:6 are not yet applicable to them at this point. So souls can literally go to heaven upon death per Premil and not make nonsense out of anything in Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 20:6, but per a position such as Amil, the exact opposite is the case.

 

[LastSeven]

To be absent from the body, present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

All scripture, including the one you quoted here is true. However, if you consider all scripture, there are plenty that contradict your interpretation of this particular passage.

Take for example these two very simple verses. There are many others, as I posted earlier, but for now these will do.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

So I assume that you believe these to be true, just as I believe 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 to be true, otherwise there's no point in continuing to debate with somebody who does not believe the Bible to be true.

So if on the one hand you have scripture that says you return to the earth when you die, and on the other hand you have scripture that says "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord", which of these two more definitively explains what happens when you die?

Keep in mind that 2 Corinthians 5 does not even mention death, yet my two examples do clearly mention death. You could infer death from the words, as you have obviously done, but you have to admit it doesn't actually mention it.

So do you take two clear passages that need no interpretation or inferencing, or do you explain them away while accepting your own interpretation of a much less clear passage? And if so, how do you explain them away?

 

[DavidPT]

To be absent from the body, present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

If that was already true when Adam died, meaning the way you seem to be interpreting that verse to mean, I guess that pretty much makes Jesus a liar on numerous occasions, such as the following.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[seventysevens]

Without any scriptural support this is nothing but drivel. If you want to debate this, give me something to consider.

You stated Drivel many times , just trying to get you to look at things that are not stemming from people who teach amil , then your eyes will open, but you prefer to keep them closed