Messiah resurrected on Sabbath & the early church met on Sabbath

[zeke25]

To Standing Up, You must have me confused with someone else's post. I never said anything about a Wednesday crucifixion. He was crucified on Thursday Abib 13. Abib 13 always lands on a Thursday, it never changes in the Calendar of Scripture. If you insist on using the corrupt Jewish calendar or some other corrupt calendar, then you will never understand this. But at the time of Christ, the Calendar of Scripture was still being used by Christ and by the Jews. Why would Yahoshua the Messiah use any other calendar, other than the one He created? Simple answer, He would not.

You said the day changes at sunset and that is why the 9th is mentioned. What day was it before sunset and what day is it at sunset? I'll answer this for you. It was the 9th the day before the Day of Atonement. It was the 9th all day. At sunset on the 9th it was still the 9th. The following sunrise it became the 10th. The Day of Atonement begins at sundown on the 9th and continues until sundown on the 10th. This is exactly what Le 23:32 says. If you can squeeze anything else out of Le 23:32 you have a great imagination. Actually, the real problem is that you are stuck on the indefensible sundown day start. If you would like to learn about a Biblical day beginning at sunrise, then I can lead you there. If you don't want to learn it, then nevermind.

 

[Standing Up]

-snip-
Another mistake many make in considering the day of Passover during crucifixion week. They use the current Jewish calendar and work backwards in time. The calendar in use during crucifixion week was the same calendar in use since the beginning (with a few necessary tweaks due to changes in the relationship between the earth, sun, and moon over the millenniums). But tweaks or no tweaks, Passover is always on a Friday - never any other day of the week. Passover is always on Abib 14. Any other calendar that identifies it at a different time is corrupted and not worthy of use. The first day of the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is always on a Saturday/sabbath - never any other day of the week: It also always begins on Abib 15.

There's a SDA group "out there" that teaches this idea. It's based on theory of a resetting 28 day calander with 2 new moon days. Close?

 

[Standing Up]

To Standing Up, You must have me confused with someone else's post. I never said anything about a Wednesday crucifixion.

But did you used to believe that?

You said the day changes at sunset and that is why the 9th is mentioned. What day was it before sunset and what day is it at sunset? I'll answer this for you. It was the 9th the day before the Day of Atonement. It was the 9th all day. At sunset on the 9th it was still the 9th. The following sunrise it became the 10th. The Day of Atonement begins at sundown on the 9th and continues until sundown on the 10th. This is exactly what Le 23:32 says. If you can squeeze anything else out of Le 23:32 you have a great imagination. Actually, the real problem is that you are stuck on the indefensible sundown day start. If you would like to learn about a Biblical day beginning at sunrise, then I can lead you there. If you don't want to learn it, then nevermind.

That's called begging the question. You haven't shown anything except to assert the day before sunset was the ninth and after sunset it was the ninth.

Lev. 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

From evening of the ninth to evening of the 10th is the sabbath. 24 hours. Sunset to sunset.

Neh. 13:19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and [some] of my servants set I at the gates, [that] there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

Sunset to sunset was the sabbath.

 

[zeke25]

Standing Up,
I am not SDA, nor am I former SDA. I am a Christian. Yes, I've seen the calendar that some from the SDA arena have developed. They have done a good job of finding the format of the Calendar of Scripture, although they have a different name for their calendar. But there calendar is only correct in its format. It is not calculated correctly. They do not begin the month in conjunction with the new moon. Since they understand that the new moon begins at conjunction, I am mystified as to how they miss it - but miss it they do.

For example this is now (Feb 18, 2013) day 9 of month 12 on the Calendar of Scripture. Since it is day 9, then it is in the weekly spot of Sunday. All day 9's throughout the entire year fall on a Sunday. On the SDA calendar they may not consider this to be day 9. They may be up to 2 to 3 days off in one direction or another. But I don't keep up with the SDA calendar, I became bored with the constant errors I continued to uncover.

But getting back to your assertion about the Day of Atonement. I wanted to give you a graphic of a calendar for this day, but my pages software will not allow me to paste and copy a calendar, or even a partial calendar. And the format in this forum will not allow me to freestyle a calendar with boxes.

So, try to imagine a calendar in front of you with two boxes: the 9th and the 10th. It will be a mini calendar.



Each one of these boxes starts a day at approximately 6 PM (approximate time of sundown).

Assuming a sundown to sundown day, per Le 23:32, the ninth day at even would fall into the box with a 9. It would also begin at the beginning of box nine and continue until the end of box 9 - a 24 hour period. So, from sundown on the 9th to sundown on the 10th, it would cover the entire time period in box 9. There would be no time allotted to box 10.

So, with a sundown day start the Day of Atonement has been moved completely into box 9. Box 10 is excluded. So, a sundown day start causes the Scriptures of Le 23:27 and Le 23:32 to contradict each other.

But, with a sunrise day start, the Day of Atonement covers part of the 9th. And it covers the day time part of box 10. Thus, there is no contradiction between Le 23:27 and 23:32.

Getting back to crucifixion week. It also baffles me why people take the current Jewish calendar and work backwards and try to place crucifixion week into the current corrupted Jewish calendar. The current corrupted Jewish calendar was not developed until a couple of centuries after the time of Christ, by Hillel II and later Rambam. This is why, by using the correct calendar that was in use by the Jews during crucifixion week, it is easy to calculate that the Last Supper was on Wednesday Abib 12, the crucifixion was on Thursday Abib 13, Passover was Friday Abib 14, and resurrection day was Saturday/sabbath Abib 15 prior to sunrise on Sunday Abib 16. I assume one of the reasons people try using the current corrupted Jewish calendar is because they do not have or understand the Calendar of Scripture. It is the same with God's name. Few know how to pronounce the tetragrammaton, so they erroneously use LORD or GOD instead.

There is no need to discuss Ne 13:19 until you grasp Le 23. If you do not understand Le 23, then there is no way to properly understand Ne 13:19.

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up,
I am not SDA, nor am I former SDA. I am a Christian. -snip-

So you never thought a Wed crucifixion was accurate?

Each one of these boxes starts a day at approximately 6 PM (approximate time of sundown).

Assuming a sundown to sundown day, per Le 23:32, the ninth day at even would fall into the box with a 9. It would also begin at the beginning of box nine and continue until the end of box 9 - a 24 hour period. So, from sundown on the 9th to sundown on the 10th, it would cover the entire time period in box 9. There would be no time allotted to box 10.

So, with a sundown day start the Day of Atonement has been moved completely into box 9. Box 10 is excluded. So, a sundown day start causes the Scriptures of Le 23:27 and Le 23:32 to contradict each other.

Evening begins and ends the day.

The 9th is ending---sunset---the 10th begins.

Sunrise---still the 10th.

The 10th is ending---sunset--the 11th begins.

Evening to evening. One 24 hour period.

But, with a sunrise day start, the Day of Atonement covers part of the 9th. And it covers the day time part of box 10. Thus, there is no contradiction between Le 23:27 and 23:32.

Let's see.

Sunrise of the 9th.
Sunset of the 9th.
Sunrise begins the 10th.
Sunset of the 10th.

So, in your scenario, it doesn't correspond to the evening to evening scripture of Lev. 23. You'd have 2 days of atonement, rather than 1.

Getting back to crucifixion week. It also baffles me why people take the current Jewish calendar and work backwards and try to place crucifixion week into the current corrupted Jewish calendar. The current corrupted Jewish calendar was not developed until a couple of centuries after the time of Christ, by Hillel II and later Rambam. This is why, by using the correct calendar that was in use by the Jews during crucifixion week, it is easy to calculate that the Last Supper was on Wednesday Abib 12, the crucifixion was on Thursday Abib 13, Passover was Friday Abib 14, and resurrection day was Saturday/sabbath Abib 15 prior to sunrise on Sunday Abib 16. I assume one of the reasons people try using the current corrupted Jewish calendar is because they do not have or understand the Calendar of Scripture. It is the same with God's name. Few know how to pronounce the tetragrammaton, so they erroneously use LORD or GOD instead.

There is no need to discuss Ne 13:19 until you grasp Le 23. If you do not understand Le 23, then there is no way to properly understand Ne 13:19.

The problem, amongst other things, is no one from scripture or very early tradition believed Christ died on the 13th. Also, no one, at that time, except Egypt, thought the day started at sunrise.

Try your hand about Neh. 13:19.

 

[zeke25]

You do not understand how a calendar works. In the Gregorian calendar 11:59:59 PM it is the 9th, at 12:00:00 AM it is the 10th. So, if we change the day from midnight to midnight and make it from sunset to sunset, here is the way it goes (assuming a 6 PM sundown): 05:59:59 PM is the 8th; 06:00:00 PM is the 9th; 24 hours later 05:59:59 PM it is still the 9th; one second later it is 06:00:00 PM the 10th.

In your example you say: "The 9th is ending---sunset---the 10th begins". There is no reason to mention the 9th, at sunset it is the 10th and the Day of Atonement begins. There is no Day of Atonement on the 9th at all. But Le 23:32 says that the Day of Atonement starts on the 9th: "...in the ninth day of the month at even…". There is no such thing as the 9th day at even. It does not exist in a sundown to sundown day scheme. When even (sundown) strikes it becomes the 10th.

The same is true for your speculation that at sunset the next day it is the 11th. The next day at sunset, in the real world of a sunrise to sunrise day, it is still the 10th, but for you it is the 11th. What you have done, and please go back and look at it, you have taken a 24 hour period from the 9th to the 10th and turned it into a period that touches three days. You have started with the 9th and made it all the way to the 11th.

This is the problem with those who try to justify a sundown to sundown day start. They must learn to think and talk in doublespeak. You cannot have it both ways. You must begin a day at the proper time and count it as such or you end up with confusion. And a sundown day start is nothing but pure confusion. Would you like to know who started this lunacy? It's in the Scriptures.

You also said, "Sunrise of the 9th.
Sunset of the 9th.
Sunrise begins the 10th.
So, in your scenario, it doesn't even include the 10th at all."
Come on now. You are moving from confusion and doublespeak to scholastic dishonesty. Of course my scenario includes the 10th. It includes sunrise on the 10th and continues until sundown on the 10th, an approximate 12 hour period. I never said that sunrise on the 9th was part of the Day of Atonement, because that is not what the Scriptures teach.

Then you said, "The problem, amongst other things, is no one from scripture or very early tradition believed Christ died on the 13th." That's a whopper. So how do you verify this statement? Especially, since Scripture teaches that He was crucified on preparation day. Preparation Day is not the 14th, the 14th is Passover. There were no preparation days for the Feast of Unleavened Bread in Scripture. That is a recent corruption and tradition instituted by the Jews, not by Scripture. Besides, you have conveniently left out identifying which day of the week you think the 13th is. The 13th is Thursday - I doubt seriously if you believe this: Now you are purposefully resorting to tactics that cause confusion rather than dialoging with integrity. Do not confuse current traditions with Biblical teachings. You have done this with a day start and now you are expanding it to the day of crucifixion. Do you respect the Bible as the word of God? If not, then we have nothing further to discuss. If you want to make things up, go make them up with someone else. I'm not buying it.

 

[Standing Up]

You do not understand how a calendar works. In the Gregorian calendar 11:59:59 PM it is the 9th, at 12:00:00 AM it is the 10th. So, if we change the day from midnight to midnight and make it from sunset to sunset, here is the way it goes (assuming a 6 PM sundown): 05:59:59 PM is the 8th; 06:00:00 PM is the 9th; 24 hours later 05:59:59 PM it is still the 9th; one second later it is 06:00:00 PM the 10th.

In your example you say: "The 9th is ending---sunset---the 10th begins". There is no reason to mention the 9th, at sunset it is the 10th and the Day of Atonement begins. There is no Day of Atonement on the 9th at all. But Le 23:32 says that the Day of Atonement starts on the 9th: "...in the ninth day of the month at even…". There is no such thing as the 9th day at even. It does not exist in a sundown to sundown day scheme. When even (sundown) strikes it becomes the 10th.

It's not like they had digital watches. What time is this:

Lev. 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.

Is that at sunrise?

The same is true for your speculation that at sunset the next day it is the 11th. The next day at sunset, in the real world of a sunrise to sunrise day, it is still the 10th, but for you it is the 11th. What you have done, and please go back and look at it, you have taken a 24 hour period from the 9th to the 10th and turned it into a period that touches three days. You have started with the 9th and made it all the way to the 11th.

This is the problem with those who try to justify a sundown to sundown day start. They must learn to think and talk in doublespeak. You cannot have it both ways. You must begin a day at the proper time and count it as such or you end up with confusion. And a sundown day start is nothing but pure confusion. Would you like to know who started this lunacy? It's in the Scriptures.

You also said, "Sunrise of the 9th.
Sunset of the 9th.
Sunrise begins the 10th.
So, in your scenario, it doesn't even include the 10th at all."
Come on now. You are moving from confusion and doublespeak to scholastic dishonesty. Of course my scenario includes the 10th. It includes sunrise on the 10th and continues until sundown on the 10th, an approximate 12 hour period. I never said that sunrise on the 9th was part of the Day of Atonement, because that is not what the Scriptures teach.

Mark 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Why do you think they waited to sun set to bring the diseased and possessed?

Then you said, "The problem, amongst other things, is no one from scripture or very early tradition believed Christ died on the 13th." That's a whopper. So how do you verify this statement?

Look up quartodeciman. The conflict centered on whether Christ died on the 14th or the 15th. Never have I come across anyone from early tradition that thought He died on the 13th.

Your theory has done nothing but cause confusion, rather than clarity.

Especially, since Scripture teaches that He wascrucified on preparation day. Preparation Day is not the 14th, the 14th is Passover. There were no preparation days for the Feast of Unleavened Bread in Scripture. That is a recent corruption and tradition instituted by the Jews, not by Scripture. Besides, you have conveniently left out identifying which day of the week you think the 13th is. The 13th is Thursday - I doubt seriously if you believe this: Now you are purposefully resorting to tactics that cause confusion rather than dialoging with integrity. Do not confuse current traditions with Biblical teachings. You have done this with a day start and now you are expanding it to the day of crucifixion. Do you respect the Bible as the word of God? If not, then we have nothing further to discuss. If you want to make things up, go make them up with someone else. I'm not buying it.

The feast of unleavened bread on the 15th was prepared for.

The 13th was Wednesday. Christ died on the 14th, Passover, a Thursday.

 

[zeke25]

You said, "It's not like they had digital watches. What time is this:

Lev. 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.

Is that at sunrise?"

No, not even close. The problem is that most people do not know what "even" means in Scripture. In this case, from the context, it means from noon until sundown. In other words, it means the same as our modern day afternoon, because that is when the Passover is sacrificed. Even/evening in Scripture means either noon, sundown, or the entire period between noon and sundown; it is determined by the context in which it is used. Without this understanding, it is impossible to understand how to determine time and days in the Biblical accounts. I have developed an entire teaching on this subject.

 

[zeke25]

Standing Up said, "The feast of unleavened bread on the 15th was prepared for."

Exodus 12:39 begs to differ with your dogma. "And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual." This is why it was called the Feast of Unleavened Bread, they had no time to prepare. Do not be confused by the modern day Jews who have added their own rules and traditions to Scripture. I do not speak or teach on their terms. I only teach about what the Bible teaches. During crucifixion week any preparation days were for Passover, not UB.

 

[zeke25]

Standing Up said: "Mark 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Why do you think they waited to sun set to bring the diseased and possessed?"

I think that by the time Christ and His followers had finished in the synagogue and began to return to Simon's house, the people watched to see where He would go. Then they had their evening meal, gathered their sick together, and headed for Simon's house. By the time they got there and Christ began to minister unto them, it was about the time of sundown. Mark 1:32 is yet another indication that the people of this era where keenly aware of time. This story is told with a reference to what time of day it was. Verse 32 is not inserted to teach a doctrine of a day start. I assume you think they couldn't bring their sick before sundown because it was the sabbath. The sabbath didn't keep them from going to the synagogue and it didn't keep Christ from ministering. People were not under house arrest every sabbath.

 

[zeke25]

Standing Up said: "Look up quartodeciman. The conflict centered on whether Christ died on the 14th or the 15th. Never have I come across anyone from early tradition that thought He died on the 13th."

I am not the least impressed by quartodeciman or any other writings of men. I have my Bible and I can live my life by it. I cannot say the same for any other documents. Besides, if Wikipedia is even close to correct, the quartodeciman is chocked full of errors. The Bible teaches that the crucifixion was on Thursday and that Thursday was Abib 13. But you have me repeating myself. You cannot possible understand the proper sequence of events as long as you hate truth and refuse to submit to the Biblical teaching of a sunrise day start. Have you bothered to even pray about the correct answer? Have you heard from the Holy Ghost? No, it is obvious that you have not. Our conversation is finished, unless you have any substantive reason to give for me to continue. There are other children to feed who are hungry and teachable.

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up said: "Mark 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Why do you think they waited to sun set to bring the diseased and possessed?"

I think that by the time Christ and His followers had finished in the synagogue and began to return to Simon's house, the people watched to see where He would go. Then they had their evening meal, gathered their sick together, and headed for Simon's house. By the time they got there and Christ began to minister unto them, it was about the time of sundown. Mark 1:32 is yet another indication that the people of this era where keenly aware of time. This story is told with a reference to what time of day it was. Verse 32 is not inserted to teach a doctrine of a day start. I assume you think they couldn't bring their sick before sundown because it was the sabbath. The sabbath didn't keep them from going to the synagogue and it didn't keep Christ from ministering. People were not under house arrest every sabbath.

Could they carry a load on the sabbath?

Jer. 17:22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers.

Therefore, they waited until sunset, sunday began, they carried the diseased to Jesus for healing.

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up said: "Look up quartodeciman. The conflict centered on whether Christ died on the 14th or the 15th. Never have I come across anyone from early tradition that thought He died on the 13th."

I am not the least impressed by quartodeciman or any other writings of men. I have my Bible and I can live my life by it. I cannot say the same for any other documents. Besides, if Wikipedia is even close to correct, the quartodeciman is chocked full of errors. The Bible teaches that the crucifixion was on Thursday and that Thursday was Abib 13. But you have me repeating myself. You cannot possible understand the proper sequence of events as long as you hate truth and refuse to submit to the Biblical teaching of a sunrise day start. Have you bothered to even pray about the correct answer? Have you heard from the Holy Ghost? No, it is obvious that you have not. Our conversation is finished, unless you have any substantive reason to give for me to continue. There are other children to feed who are hungry and teachable.

You've missed the point. Polycarp was taught by apostles; the same apostles who wrote scripture. No one at that time, including the bible, teaches that Christ died on the 13th.

Here's a substantive reason to stop teaching--you have zip with which to continue; what you have is myth and Egyptian time keeping.

 

[zeke25]

You've missed the point. Polycarp was taught by apostles; the same apostles who wrote scripture. No one at that time, including the bible, teaches that Christ died on the 13th.

Here's a substantive reason to stop teaching--you have zip with which to continue; what you have is myth and Egyptian time keeping.

Of course the Bible teaches that He died on Thursday Abib 13. However, you are not interested in learning how this is so. Catholics need Polycarp, Christians need the Bible. Why would I study the writings of Polycarp - once removed from the Bible, when I still have the Bible to study? It amazes me that so many antichrists discard the Bible and settle for a supposed authority that is not part of the canon. Are you Roman Catholic?

 

[zeke25]

Could they carry a load on the sabbath?

Jer. 17:22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers.

Therefore, they waited until sunset, sunday began, they carried the diseased to Jesus for healing.

You are starting to sound extremely ignorant in your apostasy. Is a reasonable person supposed to believe that every sick person in the city needed to be carried? Of course not! Are there not many sick and ambulatory? Of course there is!

And this people was so completely obedient to the requirements of the law? Not! For the most part they did what they pleased if they could get away with it. Why do you think that God exiled them to Babylon and Assyria? Why do you think He drove them away in 70 AD? Give me a break, you have not a clue about what you speak. This people was not obedient to the law. They illegally tried and condemned Christ. They were chief of the law breakers.

But for those who loved their sick ones and wanted to see them healed, what do you suppose they would do? Wait for your sabbath to end, or rush the sick at any time (sabbath or not) to Him that would heal them? Christ Himself continually demonstrated that it was okay to heal on a sabbath. And this was not lawbreaking. Miraculous healing was not a work.

Why do you continue to squeal like a stuck pig? Your god is a sundown day start. You cannot bear to see it denigrated. Oh please, you cry, stop attacking my god. My god cannot defend itself, so I must defend it. Repent and serve the One True God.

And I told you that Scripture shows who changed the times to a sundown day start, but you never asked for where that Scripture was. That's because you do not want to hear or learn anything that would destroy your god; especially if it comes from the Word of the Living God.

 

[Standing Up]

Of course the Bible teaches that He died on Thursday Abib 13. However, you are not interested in learning how this is so. Catholics need Polycarp, Christians need the Bible. Why would I study the writings of Polycarp - once removed from the Bible, when I still have the Bible to study? It amazes me that so many antichrists discard the Bible and settle for a supposed authority that is not part of the canon. Are you Roman Catholic?

You have no idea the issue.

PS no not Roman Catholic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Summary
Messiah died on Tuesday, and rose three full days and three full nights later on a Friday evening. The early believers gathered and worshipped on Friday evening after sunset or on Saturday morning - the Sabbath. Mainstream translators falsely changed "one of the Sabbaths" into "first [day] of the week aka Sunday".

Sunday or Sabbath?
"Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων (mia ton Sabbaton) συνηγμένων τῶν μαθητῶν τοῦ κλάσαι ἄρτον ..." - "Now on the one of the Sabbaths, having gathered together we break bread ..." (Acts 20:7)

How & why did mia ton sabbaton, literally translated "one of the Sabbaths", turn into "on the first day of the week aka Sunday" (the reading found in most mainstream translations)?! In the Greek, we find:

1. mia ("one"), not protos ("first");
2. hemera ("day") is not found in this verse (compare Mk 14:12 "prote/first hemera/day ton azymon/of unleavened bread");
3. sabbaton ("Sabbaths") is used, instead of ἑβδομάδας/ebedomas (Septuagint's word for "week", cf. Lev 23:15, Deu 16:9, etc.). The LXX uses h/ebdomadas to refer to "seven-day week" - Lev 23:15, Deu 16:9, etc, and by all indications, Messiah and the apostles were familiar with the LXX.Therefore it is reasonable to suggest that they would have used the word "h/ebdomadas" instead of "sabbaton" to clearly refer to the "seven-day week", and to avoid the ambiguity introduced by using a word which would likely make the reader think "Sabbath" instead.
​

It is extremely forced to interpolate "day" into the translated phrase, to wrest "mia"'s meaning from "one" to "first", to change the meaning of the plural "Sabbaton" - ("Sabbaths") into the singular word "week". Also, to my knowledge, nowhere else outside of the NT is "mia ton sabbaton" found translated "first day of the week aka Sunday".

"Sabbaton" - to my knowledge - is always translated "Sabbath" in the NT, except when it's paired with "mia ton"!? This hints to me of theological bias among translators who imposes the meaning on the Greek, to preserve the church's traditions regarding Sunday. I suggest that most mainstream translators translated the phrase as "first day of the week aka Sunday" because many centuries of church tradition demands it. Few would dare to rock the big boat called Christianity in such a dramatic way, and fewer would willingly place their personal academic careers in danger, in releasing a translation significantly different than most others and thus forcing billions to reexamine their fundamental beliefs about Sunday vs. the Sabbath. Lastly, I'm sure they also have translation sales and profits to think about, and corporate sponsors to answer to.

Finally, Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1; Jn 20:19; Act 20:7 should all read "one of the Sabbaths" - not "first day of the week aka Sunday"!

Proposed Passion Week Timeline:
Here's my proposal for a revised timeline if the various passion accounts are read with the phraseology "one of the Sabbaths" instead of "on the first day of the week":

Messiah died on the first day (beginning) of the High Passover Sabbath (15 Aviv; Mar 27, 31ad/Tuesday) near sunset (Mt 27:66-28:1a: "they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch; now it was the evening of the sabbath"). After He died on the cross, on late Mar 27th (still on the Passover Sabbath, 15 Aviv), Joseph of Arimathaea placed His body in the tomb (Lk 23:51-56), and likely the Marys and Salome witnessed this. The Marys and Salome then rested, and immediately after the High Passover Sabbath was over, they went and purchased spices (Mk 16:1) to anoint Messiah's body. They had two days & nights to prepare the spices into an ointment before the weekly Sabbath (Lk 23:54-56). Thus Messiah rose exactly three full days and three full nights after His death on the cross, on the sunset of Mar 30, 31 a.d., Friday - 18 Aviv (which marked the beginning of the weekly Sabbath, the prote/first Sabbath counting to Shavuot (Mk 16:9)). The women, early on Mar 31, Saturday (before the sun rose, still on the weekly Sabbath, 18 Aviv; Mt 28:1b: ""As it began to dawn on one of the Sabbaths ...", Jn 20:1, Mk 16:2) went to the tomb intending to anoint Messiah's body, but they saw the angel and the empty tomb. They reported the missing body to the other disciples, and finally the resurrected Messiah appeared to the assembled disciples near the end of the weekly Sabbath (Jn 20:19), still on Saturday.

Also, Lev 6:9 states that the sacrifice shall burn 1. all night into 2. all morning. Note the order: all night first, then morning. My proposal shows precisely this & in that precise order!: Messiah was sacrified over the course of three full nights and days: 15 Aviv all night & morning, 16 Aviv all night & morning, and 17 Aviv all night & morning!

Finally, Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three full days and nights; to my knowledge there is not indicated fractions of a day. Also, by Messiah's own recorded testimony, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" Jn 11:9. My theory includes 72 hours - three full days, and three full nights, and Messiah's testimony eliminates the possibility of inclusive counting of days. By Messiah's own testimony, He would be raised in three days and nights. Messiah proclaimed this to the disciples, priests, Pharisees, etc. I believe He would not have given the skeptic Pharisees and priests the least bit of wiggle room to claim that He failed to fulfill His own prediction.

Sounds good to me....

 

[zeke25]

LittleLambofJesus,

You have agreed with a previous post. Possibly you have overlooked some details.

First, the post attempts to take the current Jewish calendar and the Gregorian calendars and back them up in time and fit them into the events of crucifixion week. This cannot be done, these two calendars did not exist at that time in history. Therefore, they are irrelevant.

Second, without the Biblical knowledge and understanding that a day start is sunrise, it is impossible to properly construct the events of crucifixion week.

This being said, Yahoshua the Messiah did rise on Saturday night sometime prior to sunrise Sunday morning. This Saturday was the same Saturday that was from the beginning in Exodus 12 and Leviticus 23, Abib 15. That day never changes. It is the first day of the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The previous day is the single day of Passover and it is always on Friday Abib 14, it never changes on the Calendar of Scripture. Christ must have died the day before, Thursday Abib 13, because He died on the last preparation day before the single day of Passover, John 19:14 KJV, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

Third, the idea that the following Scriptures were mistranslated in order to push a Sunday sabbath onto the world is not supported by the very Scriptures that were quoted. The quote was "Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1; Jn 20:19; Act 20:7 should all read "one of the Sabbaths" - _not_ "first day of the week aka Sunday." The reason these Scriptures were not translated as well as they should have been is because the translators missed the full meaning just as the person whose quote is listed here has failed to understand their full meaning. Matthew 28:1 gives the clearest rendition to bring out the full meaning of what has been said.

Matthew 28:1 TIB, "After the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the grave." Whether mia is translated as one or first is of no consequence, the meaning has not been changed. After the sabbaths means that the single day of the Passover sabbath (Friday Abib 14) and the first day of the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Saturday Abib 15) had just passed. Actually, the Abib 15 had not passed, but was passing. It will pass when the sun breaks the eastern horizon and a new day begins. Therefore, at dawn it would be Sunday Abib 16. (BTW this verse proves twice that a day begins at sunrise. The 2nd of the two sabbaths was ending because a new day was dawning. The 2nd sabbath had not ended at sundown the day before. Plus, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths is showing us again that a day start is sunrise, because the count of the seven sabbaths does not start until sunrise Sunday Abib 16). This is what the first or one of the sabbaths means. On Sunday Abib 16, Sheaf Wave Day, is the first day of the first week of the seven perfect (or complete) weeks that are counted to reach Shavuot: See Leviticus 23:15.

So, the dawning into the first of the sabbaths most definitely means Sunday. This doesn't change the seventh day sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The sabbath is the sabbath and Sunday is Sunday. There is no such thing as a Sunday sabbath except in the fantasies of confused men. But this too is of no consequence. No one is required to observe the weekly sabbath anymore: not Jews, not Christians, not Martians, no body<Staff Edit> .

<Staff Edit>

 

[JDMiowa]

[FONT=Segoe Script, sans-serif] A Bible Riddle ![/FONT]

[FONT=Segoe Script, sans-serif]When Did The Women Buy And Prepare The Spices ?[/FONT]

A story is told of a young man who left home and ran a little way, and then turned left ran a littlemore and turned left again ran some more then turned left and ran home. At home he found two maskedmen. What were they doing there, and who were they?


Many times our brains are stuck in thinking a certain way, and it becomes almost impossible tosee any differently. This is called a "paradigm." Now I can break your "old paradigm" by answering the
question in this story. The answer will change your whole perspective of the story. The identity of themasked men are Catcher and Umpire and they were there to play a baseball game. Now you see the story in a whole new way.




A famous quote that has been attributed to Benjamin Franklin says, "A man convinced againsthis will, is of the same opinion still." Mark Twain said, “In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten(sic) at second hand, and without examination." In 2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is inspired of God and useful for teaching."




Let's consider Mark 16:1, the women BOUGHT spices AFTER the Sabbath, the Gospel of Luke Ch.23:55-56 says that the women PREPARED spices at home BEFORE the Sabbath! Can both be true?


Before we focus on that question, let's see what Genesis 22 can reveal. Abraham is a type showing what God the anti-type would do in their future for them and us. Let's look closely at the time line when Abraham considered Isaac to be as good as dead. It was evening when God instructed Abraham that Isaac must be killed. It was after a total of three days of traveling to Moriah, Abraham building an altar, and Isaac carrying the wood for the altar that he was to die upon, that God says, "Stop do not harm your son." After three days, believing Isaac was as good as dead, God restores Isaac's life. Abraham saw Isaac as good as dead, starting in the evening, then night, day, night, day, night, day. The same time line as God saw Jesus as dead. Then God / Jesus restores Jesus’ life. Jesus said, "I lay it down, I take it up".




In prophecy a day can equal a day as when Jesus said in Matthew 12:39-40, "Three days and three nights the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth." This isn't a prophecy of how long he would be dead, but how long he would be in the tomb. Or in John 2:19, Matthew 26:61 and Mark 14:58 it states that Jesus will rebuild the temple (his body) in three days.



In prophecy a day can also equal a year. In Luke 13:32, Jesus says, "Go tell that fox that, Behold I cast out devils and do cures, today, tomorrow, and the third day** I will be perfected." This is after John the Baptist was arrested. Most scholars agree John died six months into Jesus ministry. When Jesus said, "the third day** I will be perfected," He was saying he had three more full years to do miracles, then he will be glorified, not in two years, but three.




In prophecy a day can also equal a 1,000 years as with 2 Peter 3:8. No man has lived past 1,000 years of age, so it can be said that they died on day one. Genesis 2:17 says,"The day you eat of it you will surely die", but Adam lived 930 years. Methuselah lived the longest of all 969 years, yet still short of the 1,000 years needed to reach the end of day one. Some say, “Adam and Eve died instantly". Wouldn't God have said, "The instant you eat of it you will surely die?"




Now let’s consider Daniel 9:26-27, I believe this is a prophecy of Jesus's crucifixion from three perspectives. [When looking through a microscope you first focus on the large picture, then middle, then you turn the lens to focus up close, you see the same object from three perspectives]. This is how the angel Gabriel reveals this prophecy to Daniel. First you see a day equals a 1,000 years. Looks like Jesus died on the Cross at the end of day Four, or the end of the four thousandth year since Creation. Second you see a day equals a year in this prophecy, or a week equals 7 years. Middle of the week, (Fourth year) after the Messiah (Jesus) is anointed (baptized), he is cutoff (dies). A synonym of circumcised in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary is to cutoff. Christ is called the circumcised of God in the New Testament. This is a picture of Jesus being One with the Father until he is, "cutoff" and dies on the cross. In Genesis 17:11, God reveals this through Abraham's own circumcision. Abraham being a "type", and God the "anti-type", as told in Colossians 2:11, "in who also (like Christ) are circumcised with a circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS (this is by God's own doing), in putting (cutting) off the body of the sins of the flesh (God became flesh) by the circumcision, (cutting off as stated in Daniel 9:26-27) of Christ." Now let's adjust the microscope lens to see up close the prophecy in Daniel 9:26-27. We see the Messiah will be cut off in the midst of the week, or middle of seven, and cause the end of sacrifice. Middle of seven is four. On the FOURTH day of the week the Messiah will die as told by Gabriel. Clearly Gabriel reveals in the middle of the fourth year of Seven, Jesus would be the final sacrifice. That's three and a half years after he was baptized. In the same passage, Gabriel reveals in the middle of the week, (the FOURTH day of the week), which is commonly called Wednesday, Jesus would be the final sacrifice for all time. This is one prophecy with three focal points, large, middle and small.

On...
the FOURTH Millennium after CREATION
the FOURTH year after Jesus BEGAN his MINISTRY
the FOURTH day after the FIRST day of the CRUCIFIXION WEEK
...Jesus dies for our sins.


The angel Gabriel in Daniel 9:22-23 gives this understanding to Daniel. Much earlier on the same day (Tuesday night/FOURTH day) Jesus and his disciples had the "last supper" meal. The last supper was in fact the Seder meal, remembering the Passover Lamb that brought protection and deliverance in Egypt.* Jesus drinks from the first three cups, (three times from one cup) but not the fourth cup.* The fourth cup is the Passover cup. Pesach translated Passover literally means "protection."* Jesus would not take this cup of protection, because the protection is possible only because he (God's first born) substituted his death for us and them. If God's first born did not die in their place on the cross, (the first born sons of Israel in Egypt) there would not have been a fourth cup of protection, (remembering God's protection of their first born in Egypt) in their past to remember. Kind of like the movie, "Back to the future" where they were concerned about changing the future, by changing some past event. But Jesus was concerned about changing the past, by not fulfilling the prophecy of his future. The significance of the Passover (first day of Unleavened Bread) which is also a Preparation Day for the Feast of
Unleavened Bread (a HIGH Sabbath) is truly great. Then he also rested until the end of the Seventh Day Sabbath showing its significance also. Both Sabbaths were needed to reveal the reason for Christ's death. Pasach, a Jewish festival that commemorates the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, is marked chiefly by the Seder ritual and the eating of matzoth. It begins on the 14th day of Nisan. The 15th day of Nisan is a HIGH Sabbath. The last cup or the fifth cup, he took alone, on the Mount of Olives.* It did not have wine, but was filled with "God's wrath meant for the nations" also known as, "Elijah's cup."* This cup was the cause of Jesus great anguish that made him sweat large drops of blood. Hematidrosis (also called hematohidrosis ) is a very rare condition in which a human being is suffering extreme levels of stress causing capillaries to burst under the skin.*** Probably from high blood pressure, and then the
blood passing through the skin.*** Leonardo da Vinci described a soldier who sweated blood before battle.*** Also men unexpectedly given a death sentence have suffered from the condition.*** This condition is normally fatal. In Luke 22:23-24, Dr. Luke describes this condition with Jesus, he also tells how an angel from heaven strengthened him. If not for this angel strengthening him, he most likely would have died right then and there.


Then day FIVE was the Passover Sabbath. Now let's focus on Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:55-56 again. Day SIX is now a day AFTER the Passover SABBATH and BEFORE the Seventh Day SABBATH. Day six is also named the Preparation Day. This is to give time to prepare so you don't have to work on the Seventh Day Sabbath. The Passover Sabbath is no different, it also requires a Preparation Day ahead of it.




Day SIX is when I believe the Matthew 27:62-63 events occurred. "On the next (preparation) day" which precedes the Seventh Day Sabbath, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. They never would have done any common business on any Sabbath day, and there was no need to, they had time to wait. They ask permission from Pilate to place a guard at the tomb until the third day.** (A proper definition of the term, "the third day,"** idiomatic expression-and difficult to translate
into English is, "three days have already passed"**). It can be translated, "They ask permission from Pilate to place a guard at the tomb, until three days have already passed."** They told Pilate that they
REMEMBERED Jesus saying while still alive, "AFTER THREE DAYS I will rise again." [This passage states, "AFTER THREE DAYS" and, "the third day"** are "Phrase Synonyms". The BIBLE gives the DEFINITION of, "the third day"** clearly, by none other than the chief priests and the Pharisees! The bible always gives the definitions we need.] Too bad the women did not remember, "AFTER THREE DAYS I will rise again," it would have saved them a lot of grief, work and money. In Luke 24:6-8, two angel's reminded them how Jesus must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and "the third day rise again." Once again "Phrase Synonyms". One must be dead for over three days before a death certificate can become, "Official" according to Jewish law.** It is widely taught and believed, "Jewish reckoning of time" allows Jesus to be dead less than three full days, yet at the same time full-filling the requirements of being dead three full days. This application of time reckoning is backwards to all applications of time reckoning presented in scripture. The King that reined two and a half years is given credit for ruling three years, not two years. In the Lord's parable of the laborers, the workers that worked a hour at the end of the day was credited with a full days pay (Matt. 20:1-15). A partial workday was considered a full workday. If a worker worked half a day, the employer could not say, "I owe you nothing, because not working any part of a day, is the same as not working at all that day." It's not what you don’t do that’s enlarged, but what you do. The day Jesus died on the cross he put in twenty-one hours, so the whole day he is considered working, even if he died with three hours left in that twenty- four hour day to go. You cannot say, "Because he died with three hours left to go that day, he was dead the whole day, and did no work that day." The correct way to apply Jewish reckoning of time to a Friday Crucifixion and Sunday Resurrection would be, Jesus worked all day Friday, was dead Saturday and worked all day Sunday. It's a good thing God credits us only for what we do for Jesus, and places on Jesus to bear what we did not do for him. How long did Jesus delay before raising Lazarus from, “the dead?" The answer is recorded in the 11th and 12th chapters of the fourth gospel. Did Jesus delay past three days to prove "officially"** he can raise Lazarus and likewise us from the dead? Was Jesus "officially"**dead? You decide for yourself.


The SEVENTH Day of the week is a permanent Sabbath. Then Jesus rose after the end of the (Seventh Day) Sabbath (the original text says, "end of Sabbaths"**** meaning more than one), that being the FIRST day of the week, (commonly called Saturday night). Psalm 121:4 says, "God does not sleep." This destroys one reason commonly given for transferring the Seventh Day Sabbath to Sunday.




Mark 16:1-2, says, “when the (Passover) Sabbath was past (over)...bought spices, that they might come (later on the First Day of the week) and anoint him." (Now the seventh day Sabbath comes and
goes). "And (now) very early in the morning (on) the first day of the week, [could not have prepared it on this day, no time, but this was the day, "That they might come, later"] they came unto the sepulcher at
the rising of the sun." Luke 24:1-3 says, "Now upon the first (day) of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had (previously) prepared (on day six), and certain (others) with them." Luke 23: 53-56, (53, Jesus laid in sepulcher), verse 54, "and that day was the (Passover) preparation, and the (Passover) Sabbath drew on" (was about to begin, no time here for preparation). Then the Passover Sabbath on Day five, no work is done, [verse 55-56, day Six the Preparation Day women followed after (Joseph, before tomb was sealed) and beheld (the) sepulcher, and how his body was (previously) laid. They may have met the guards when leaving the
tomb and learned it wouldbe sealed closed for a time. Then they bought spices in Jerusalem (as in Luke), then returned home and prepared spices and ointments. The day was almost over so they prepared for
the coming Sabbath. Then they rested according to the (Fourth) Commandment until the (Seventh Day) Sabbath was over. Luke 24:1 says, "The women returned very early the first day of the week bringing
spices they had (previously) prepared (on the Preparation Day) (no pun intended, well... maybe yes) to the sepulcher in Jerusalem."



Now we see clearly, Mark 16:1-2 and Luke 23:55-56 totally agree!


The women BOUGHT the spices AFTER the Passover SABBATH
and PREPARED it BEFORE the Seventh Day SABBATH
ON the, "PREPARATION DAY"! THE RIDDLE SOLVED ! Hope this topical study of God's Word has blessed you. JDMiowa

 

[JDMiowa]

* Faith Lessons by Ray Vander Laan: The Fifth Cup



** Study of the term;" the third day" and length of death needed to be "official" by Jewish law

[FONT=MS Gothic, monospace]&#12288;[/FONT]
*** Study of Hematidrosis: JAMA
Leonardo da Vinci; Describing a soldier who sweated blood.


**** Study of the word Sabbaths: