Messiah resurrected on Sabbath & the early church met on Sabbath

[Mikeb85]

And I've explained, one must understand the nature of inflected languages; this is the basis for the variations in the endings. I just disagree with your conclusions that they point to completely different meanings.

It's not my conclusion. It's in the Hebrew language. Look it up.

&#1513;&#1489;&#1514; <- Sabbath
&#1513;&#1489;&#1493;&#1506; <- Week

 

[Harry3142]

Where confusion has occurred has been in identifying the 'Sabbath' which immediately followed Jesus' crucifixion with Saturday alone. The following day was the first day of Passover, which was a special Sabbath, as was the seventh day (Lev. 23:7-8). In the year of Jesus' crucifixion that day was a Friday, so the 'Sabbath' which they had to rest on was 48 hours long, rather than its being 24 hours long.

 

[Mikeb85]

שָׁ×&#8216;×&#8226;Ö¼×¢Ö· (shavoa) - How to say 'week' in Hebrew - Ma Kore

&#1513;&#1464;&#1473;&#1489;&#1493;&#1468;&#1506;&#1463;
shavoa
Noun
week

Notice how they say shabbat is a related word?

Now of course this is modern Hebrew, which is different from Biblical Hebrew, but it illustrates that week and sabbath are similar words, and would have been transliterated in a similar fashion...

 

[Thekla]

My citation satisfies my requirements. The NT writers quoted extensively from the LXX, and the LXX has a specific word for "week". The NT writers were not referring to the "week", so they did not use that word.

The NT writers cleared used a made-up Greek word "sabbaton" which was used nowhere outside of the Greek-speaking Jews. It was clearly in reference to "Sabbath"; I do not believe the NT writers would have used this word to cause confusion by referring to "week" instead, when there was another perfectly good, clear, word to use.

Yet the clear term used in the NT for "week" (in the Luke passage re: the Pharisee) is the genitive form of Sabbath.

Ie, the LXX term (roughly ebdomas) is not used in the NT.

 

[ananda]

Yet the clear term used in the NT for "week" (in the Luke passage re: the Pharisee) is the genitive form of Sabbath.

Not so. Check Mt 12:18, Mk 2:28, Mk 6:2, Mk 16:1, Lk 6:5, Lk 13:14, Lk 13:16, Lk 14:5, Jn 19:31, Acts 1:12 where the genitive is translated "Sabbath"

 

[Thekla]

Not so. Check Mt 12:18, Mk 2:28, Mk 6:2, Mk 16:1, Lk 6:5, Lk 13:14, Lk 13:16, Lk 14:5, Jn 19:31, Acts 1:12 where the genitive is translated "Sabbath"

So the Pharisees did fast twice a day on the Sabbath ?

What then was the NT term for "week" ?

And what was the (1st c.) Hebrew term for week ?

 

[Standing Up]

Note that Friday = preparation/paraskeui a term meaning both preparation (in general) and also used as a day name.

I do not know the ancient day names offhand, but your understanding is reflected in the Modern Greek day-names (which are unlike the Ancient Greek day names).

Yep, preparation day was not called a Friday before the weekly sabbath or whatever-day before a feast sabbath. Just preparation day.

I don't believe the ancient greek had names for the days of the week per se, but the days of the week were 'counted' from the weekly sabbath. thus the mia ton sabbath was the first day from the weekly 7th day (sabbath), which would be our (or Roman) sunday.

 

[Standing Up]

And I've explained, one must understand the nature of inflected languages; this is the basis for the variations in the endings. I just disagree with your conclusions that they point to completely different meanings.

There may be a simple explanation for the one/first of the sabbaths translation, though it'll take a bit of clarification.

The time frame between pascha and pentecost included a count of 7 weeks and 50 days. There was a dispute over whether the count began on the day after (the 16th) the feast sabbath (the 15th) or the day after the weekly sabbath.

The LXX renders the start of the count this way-

23:6 And on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened bread to the Lord; seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread. 23:7 And the first day shall be a holy convocation to you: ye shall do no servile work. ... 23:11 and he shall lift up the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you. On the morrow of the first day the priest shall lift it up. ... 23:15 And ye shall number to yourselves from the day after [sunday] the [weekly] sabbath, from the [morrow of the first] day on which ye shall offer the sheaf of the heave-offering, seven full weeks:

Now, it helps to know that in the year of our Lord's death, the 16th fell on a weekly sabbath. The next day began the count of 7 full weeks to the 50th day (always a sunday).

So, in the death/burial/resurrection passages of the "mia ton sabbaton" we find the first day of the count to pentecost, beginning on sunday. It's not some misguided translation to one sabbath, but rather the first of the sabbaths (the first day of the first week of 7 sabbaths).

Make sense?

 

[annier]

There may be a simple explanation for the one/first of the sabbaths translation, though it'll take a bit of clarification.

The time frame between pascha and pentecost included a count of 7 weeks and 50 days. There was a dispute over whether the count began on the day after (the 16th) the feast sabbath (the 15th) or the day after the weekly sabbath.

The LXX renders the start of the count this way-

23:6 And on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened bread to the Lord; seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread. 23:7 And the first day shall be a holy convocation to you: ye shall do no servile work. ... 23:11 and he shall lift up the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you. On the morrow of the first day the priest shall lift it up. ... 23:15 And ye shall number to yourselves from the day after [sunday] the [weekly] sabbath, from the [morrow of the first] day on which ye shall offer the sheaf of the heave-offering, seven full weeks:

Now, it helps to know that in the year of our Lord's death, the 16th fell on a weekly sabbath. The next day began the count of 7 full weeks to the 50th day (always a sunday).

So, in the death/burial/resurrection passages of the "mia ton sabbaton" we find the first day of the count to pentecost, beginning on sunday. It's not some misguided translation to one sabbath, but rather the first of the sabbaths (the first day of the first week of 7 sabbaths).

Make sense?

Jos 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
Jos 5:11 And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.
Lev 23:.9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: {sheaf: or, handful: Heb. omer&#8202;}
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

 

[annier]

There may be a simple explanation for the one/first of the sabbaths translation, though it'll take a bit of clarification.

The time frame between pascha and pentecost included a count of 7 weeks and 50 days. There was a dispute over whether the count began on the day after (the 16th) the feast sabbath (the 15th) or the day after the weekly sabbath.

The LXX renders the start of the count this way-

23:6 And on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened bread to the Lord; seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread. 23:7 And the first day shall be a holy convocation to you: ye shall do no servile work. ... 23:11 and he shall lift up the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you. On the morrow of the first day the priest shall lift it up. ... 23:15 And ye shall number to yourselves from the day after [sunday] the [weekly] sabbath, from the [morrow of the first] day on which ye shall offer the sheaf of the heave-offering, seven full weeks:

Now, it helps to know that in the year of our Lord's death, the 16th fell on a weekly sabbath. The next day began the count of 7 full weeks to the 50th day (always a sunday).

So, in the death/burial/resurrection passages of the "mia ton sabbaton" we find the first day of the count to pentecost, beginning on sunday. It's not some misguided translation to one sabbath, but rather the first of the sabbaths (the first day of the first week of 7 sabbaths).

Make sense?

Another explanation could be the way they did the count itself. They counted the days by number, as well as the weeks. Example the 8th day would be, today is day eight of the omer, which is 1 day and 1 week. Day one of the the weeks, would not be out of line for the cultural counting.

 

[Standing Up]

Another explanation could be the way they did the count itself. They counted the days by number, as well as the weeks. Example the 8th day would be, today is day eight of the omer, which is 1 day and 1 week. Day one of the the weeks, would not be out of line for the cultural counting.

Not uncoincidentally that example is in scripture. They found the empty tomb on the first day after the sabbath w/out Thomas. Then on the following sunday (8 days again counting inclusively)

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.

 

[Standing Up]

Jos 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
Jos 5:11 And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.
Lev 23:.9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: {sheaf: or, handful: Heb. omer&#8202;}
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

Not sure your point here.

14-passover
15-first day of unleavened bread
16-first fruit

That is also found in Joshua when they cross the Jordan.

 

[ananda]

So the Pharisees did fast twice a day on the Sabbath?

The Pharisee fasted "twice of a Sabbath period", a figure of speech for "twice in a period of seven days of which Sabbath is the highest point in the period of time". Secondly, "sabbatou" (singular) is used in Lk 18:12 which contrasts with the plural used otherwise as "sabbaton".

What then was the NT term for "week" ?

In my opinion, there is no reference to a "week" (on its own) in the NT. Contemporary Greek usage shows ebdoma* was the word used for "week".

And what was the (1st c.) Hebrew term for week ?

&#1513;&#1489;&#1506;&#1514;, to my knowledge.

 

[ananda]

Now, it helps to know that in the year of our Lord's death, the 16th fell on a weekly sabbath. The next day began the count of 7 full weeks to the 50th day (always a sunday).

Your explanation rests on the premise that He died on the 16th (a weekly sabbath). According to my timeline, the 16th was the first day of Unleavened Bread, and was not a High or weekly Sabbath.

 

[Mikeb85]

The Pharisee fasted "twice of a Sabbath period", a figure of speech for "twice in a period of seven days of which Sabbath is the highest point in the period of time". Secondly, "sabbatou" (singular) is used in Lk 18:12 which contrasts with the plural used otherwise as "sabbaton".

You just used it as 'week'...

In my opinion, there is no reference to a "week" (on its own) in the NT. Contemporary Greek usage shows ebdoma* was the word used for "week".

The writers of the New Testament were Jews, who spoke Greek. Hence the language is a bit different than contemporary Greek, there were transliterations...

&#1513;&#1489;&#1506;&#1514;, to my knowledge.

Seven... Which of course, has the same root as Sabbath and Week...

 

[ananda]

You just used it as 'week'...

Lk 18:12 is clearly figurative language; (it would not make sense that the Pharisee is fasting twice on one Sabbath day).

Not so with "mia ton sabbaton" - there is no reason to believe that this phrase is being used figuratively, among other problems (as I've documented in the OP) which crop up once one tries to force it to mean "first day of the week".

The writers of the New Testament were Jews, who spoke Greek. Hence the language is a bit different than contemporary Greek, there were transliterations...

Would the inspired Jewish writers of the NT seek to confuse the issue?

Seven... Which of course, has the same root as Sabbath and Week...

Doesn't mean that they are the same.

 

[Standing Up]

Your explanation rests on the premise that He died on the 16th (a weekly sabbath). According to my timeline, the 16th was the first day of Unleavened Bread, and was not a High or weekly Sabbath.

No, it is this timeline.

14-passover, death
15-first day unleavened bread, burial
16-first fruit, resurrection

17-empty tomb, w/o Thomas, sunday, first of the first week to pentecost
24-w/ thomas, sunday, first of the second week to pentecost

 

[Standing Up]

Lk 18:12 is clearly figurative language; (it would not make sense that the Pharisee is fasting twice on one Sabbath day).

Not so with "mia ton sabbaton" - there is no reason to believe that this phrase is being used figuratively, among other problems (as I've documented in the OP) which crop up once one tries to force it to mean "first day of the week".

Would the inspired Jewish writers of the NT seek to confuse the issue?

Doesn't mean that they are the same.

of the count of Pentecost.

Believe all references are to that. In this case, it was a sunday.

 

[ananda]

No, it is this timeline.

14-passover, death
15-first day unleavened bread, burial
16-first fruit, resurrection

17-empty tomb, w/o Thomas, sunday, first of the first week to pentecost
24-w/ thomas, sunday, first of the second week to pentecost

Thanks you're correct about the 15th - I had a brain hiccup.

Yes, the 14th is Passover, and 15th is unleavened bread. So in my timeline:

14th - Passover, death & burial at the end of the 14th
15th - First Day of Unleavened Bread (High Sabbath), no burial, no work allowed on this day
16th - Messiah in tomb
17th - Messiah in tomb until His resurrection at the end of the 17th
18th - weekly sabbath, women & Peter saw empty tomb; Messiah met with Peter etc on road to Emmaus. Messiah met with the apostles in the upper room.

 

[Mikeb85]

Lk 18:12 is clearly figurative language; (it would not make sense that the Pharisee is fasting twice on one Sabbath day).

Not so with "mia ton sabbaton" - there is no reason to believe that this phrase is being used figuratively, among other problems (as I've documented in the OP) which crop up once one tries to force it to mean "first day of the week".

Now you're injecting your own interpretation. You're right about this particular verse, but your reasoning is flawed.

Would the inspired Jewish writers of the NT seek to confuse the issue?

They were Jews writing mainly to Jews. I doubt anyone was confused...

Doesn't mean that they are the same.

No, but it means that when transliterated, there's going to be the same similarities.... Etymology says alot about a culture's beliefs, so ignoring the etymology, and assuming they wouldn't carry it over to another language seems kind of silly...