Messiah resurrected on Sabbath & the early church met on Sabbath

[zeke37]

Summary: Messiah died on Tuesday, and rose three full days and three full nights later on a Friday evening. The early believers gathered and worshipped on Friday evening after sunset or on Saturday morning - the Sabbath. Translators falsely changed "one of the Sabbaths" into "first [day] of the week aka Sunday".

Wed at dusk, until Sat at dusk.
3 days and 3 nights.
Sabbath to Sabbath

He's not there by Sunday morning

It appears to me the law and customs of the Jews is being ignored in this presentation.

There is no requirement for an exact 72 hour period anywhere in the Scripture.

bugkiller

Yes there is, when both three days and three nights are given,
plus the only sign they got was the sign of Jonas
who was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights.

Nonsense. He passed on Friday, was raised on Sunday, and only ancient heresy says otherwise.

lol. that does not line up with Jonas at all.

There's a few things wrong with the OP.

Messiah died on the first day (beginning) of the High Passover Sabbath (15 Aviv; Mar 27, 31ad/Tuesday) at sunset

Wed at sunset.

(Mt 27:66-28:1a: "they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch; now it was the evening of the sabbath"). After He died on the cross, on late Mar 27th (still on the Passover Sabbath, 15 Aviv), Joseph of Arimathaea placed His body in the tomb (Lk 23:51-56), and likely the Marys and Salome witnessed this. The Marys and Salome then rested, and immediately after the High Passover Sabbath was over, they went and purchased spices (Mk 16:1) to anoint Messiah's body. They had two days & nights to prepare the spices into an ointment before the weekly Sabbath (Lk 23:54-56).

actually they had only 1 day
Christ dies Wed at dusk, and that began a Sabbath...no work...
so they only had in between Thurs from sunset and Fri till sunset,
because Fri sunset also began the weekly Sabbath

1) He didn't die at sunset. Lk. 23:44, Mk 15:34 suggests near 3pm (ninth hour). But the OP has to say at sunset in order to force the 3 days/nights idea.

you forget that the Lord caused the land to become dark right at His death,
ushering in the Sabbath Passover right there and then.
it did not get light again at 3:05 pm...it remained dark till the morning.

2) Jesus appeared to the disciples on a Sunday, not Sabbath. It was the first Sunday counting toward Pentecost.

He could have been gone from the grave anytime after sunset Sat night...we don't know exactly when.
but we know He was already gone from the grave by the first light of Sunday morning.

3) Given the OP timeline, the high passover sabbath was over when Joseph put Jesus in the tomb. IOW, the Mary's would not have needed to rest.

'Nuff for now.

you have Him crucified at the wrong day too...so don't judge him to harshly.

 

[ananda]

Wed at dusk, until Sat at dusk. 3 days and 3 nights. Sabbath to Sabbath He's not there by Sunday morning

I disagree. Your timeline does not agree with Mt 28:1b, where it is written that the women went and saw the empty tomb as it began to dawn on the Sabbath - not Sunday.

 

[zeke37]

I disagree. Your timeline does not agree with Mt 28:1b, where it is written that the women went and saw the empty tomb as it began to dawn on the Sabbath - not Sunday.

my timeline is in perfect agreement with the scriptures.
you are in error about Mat28:1. i'll post it for you.

28In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
​

this is Sunday morning, the first day of the week, as the sun is rising.

 

[Standing Up]

my timeline is in perfect agreement with the scriptures.
you are in error about Mat28:1. i'll post it for you.

28In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
​

this is Sunday morning, the first day of the week, as the sun is rising.

Wondered if you were gonna show up

 

[ananda]

my timeline is in perfect agreement with the scriptures. you are in error about Mat28:1. i'll post it for you.

28In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
​

this is Sunday morning, the first day of the week, as the sun is rising.

Did you read my OP?

How does "mian Sabbaton" ("one of the Sabbaths") magically transform into "first [day] of the week" (in your translation)?

τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαριὰ θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον

I suggest this is a more correct translation:

27:66 they went, and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch. Now it is the evening of the High Sabbath. 28:1b As it began to dawn in one of the weekly sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the tomb.

 

[Standing Up]

Did you read my OP?

How does "mian Sabbaton" ("one of the Sabbaths") magically transform into "first [day] of the week" (in your translation)?

τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαριὰ θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον

From what I recall, they numbered their days by the Sabbath. One day after, two days after, etc. So mia sabbaton is one day after sabbath (aka sunday). Much like we today count our week from Sunday. Monday is day 2, Tuesday is day 3, etc.

 

[ananda]

From what I recall, they numbered their days by the Sabbath. One day after, two days after, etc. So mia sabbaton is one day after sabbath (aka sunday). Much like we today count our week from Sunday. Monday is day 2, Tuesday is day 3, etc.

I do not find the words "day" or "after" in the Greek, associated with "mia sabbaton".

 

[Standing Up]

I do not find the words "day" or "after" in the Greek, associated with "mia sabbaton".

What do you make of Mark 16:1 and 2?

Your version creates a contradiction:
When the sabbath was past ...., on the sabbath the women came to the tomb...

KJV
When the sabbath was past ... on the first day of the week, the women came to the tomb...

 

[ananda]

What do you make of Mark 16:1 and 2?

Your version creates a contradiction:
When the sabbath was past ...., on the sabbath the women came to the tomb...

KJV
When the sabbath was past ... on the first day of the week, the women came to the tomb...

There is no contradiction. These verses were integrated into my timeline in my OP. They are talking about two different Sabbaths.

Mk 16:1: "When the Sabbath was past" - referring to the High Passover Sabbath that just ended on 15 Aviv, the women purchased spices.

On 16 Aviv & 17 Aviv, they worked on the spices to turn them into perfume to anoint Messiah's body.

Mk 16:2 & Jn 20:1: "As it began to dawn on one of the Sabbaths ..." - the weekly Sabbath on Saturday, 18 Aviv, the women went to the tomb.

 

[Standing Up]

Turns out the idea of translating mia ton sabbaton as sabbath, rather than sunday, (see OP) is "out there". Here's another commentary:

Jesus once used the term “Sabbath” in this sense while teaching about the sinfulness of self-righteousness (Luke 18:9). He told a parable of the sanctimonious Pharisee who prayed: “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, emp. added). The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).
According to R.C.H. Lenski, since “[t]he Jews had no names for the weekdays,” they “designated them with reference to their Sabbath” (1943, p. 1148). Thus, mia ton sabbaton means “the first (day) with reference to the Sabbath,” i.e., the first (day) following the Sabbath (Lenski, p. 1148), or, as we would say in 21st century English, “the first day of the week.”
After spending years examining Jewish writings in the Babylonian Talmud, Hebraist John Lightfoot wrote A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica, in which he expounded upon the Hebrew method of counting the days of the week. He noted: “The Jews reckon the days of the week thus; One day (or the first day) of the sabbath: two (or the second day) of the sabbath;” etc. (1859, 2:375, emp. in orig.). Lightfoot then quoted from two different Talmud tractates. Maccoth alludes to those who testify on “the first of the sabbath” about an individual who stole an ox. Judgment was then passed the following day—“on the second day of the sabbath” (Lightfoot, 2:375, emp. in orig.; Maccoth, Chapter 1). Bava Kama describes ten enactments ordained by a man named Ezra, including the public reading of the law “on the second and fifth days of the sabbath,” and the washing of clothes “on the fifth day of the sabbath” (Lightfoot, 2:375; Bava Kama, Chapter 7). In Michael Rodkinson’s 1918 translation of Maccoth and Bava Kama, he accurately translated “the second day of the sabbath” as Monday, “the fifth day of the sabbath” as Thursday, and “the first of the sabbath” as Sunday.
If the word sabbaton in passages such as Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, and Acts 20:7 actually denoted “the Sabbath day,” rather than “a period of seven days,” one would expect some of the foremost Bible translations to translate it thusly. Every major English translation of the Bible, however, translates mia ton sabbaton as “the first day of the week.” Why? Because scholars are aware of the Jewish method of counting the days of the week by using the Sabbath as a reference point.
Apologetics Press - “The First Day of the Week”

 

[ananda]

Turns out the idea of translating mia ton sabbaton as sabbath, rather than sunday, (see OP) is "out there". Here's another commentary ... Jesus once used the term “Sabbath” in this sense while teaching about the sinfulness of self-righteousness (Luke 18:9). He told a parable of the sanctimonious Pharisee who prayed: “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, emp. added). The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).

"dis tou sabbatou" is literally "twice of a sabbath". By implication, it does means "twice in a sabbath period, which is a week of 7 days". Secondly, "sabbatou" is singular (referring to a singular block of 7 days), whereas "sabbaton" is plural (referring to one of many Sabbaths in "mia ton sabbaton"). If translators insist on translating "mia ton Sabbaton" as "first day of the week", why did they change the plural "Sabbaton" into the singular "week"?!

According to R.C.H. Lenski, since “[t]he Jews had no names for the weekdays,” they “designated them with reference to their Sabbath” (1943, p. 1148). Thus, mia ton sabbaton means “the first (day) with reference to the Sabbath,” i.e., the first (day) following the Sabbath (Lenski, p. 1148), or, as we would say in 21st century English, “the first day of the week.” ... “The Jews reckon the days of the week thus; One day (or the first day) of the sabbath: two (or the second day) of the sabbath;” etc. (1859, 2:375, emp. in orig.). Lightfoot then quoted from two different Talmud tractates. ... scholars are aware of the Jewish method of counting the days of the week by using the Sabbath as a reference point.

This Jewish practice described ("first day in reference to the Sabbath"), to my understanding, started hundreds of years after the NT era. This type of counting was not known or recorded in any literature of the NT era or before. Also, nowhere else in NT-era or earlier Greek literature (outside of the NT), is "sabbaton" ever translated as anything but "Sabbath". NT writers could have used the Greek word "ebdomadas" to undoubtedly refer to a week, but is it reasonable to believe that they chose to use "sabbaton" instead and obscure the intent?! I say "no"!

If the word sabbaton in passages such as Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, and Acts 20:7 actually denoted “the Sabbath day,” rather than “a period of seven days,” one would expect some of the foremost Bible translations to translate it thusly. Every major English translation of the Bible, however, translates mia ton sabbaton as “the first day of the week.” Why? Because scholars are aware of the Jewish method of counting the days of the week by using the Sabbath as a reference point.

I suggest that most mainstream translators translated the phrase as "first day of the week aka Sunday" because many centuries of church tradition demands it. Few would dare to rock the big boat called Christianity in such a dramatic way, and fewer would willingly place their personal academic careers in danger, in releasing a translation significantly different than most others and thus forcing billions to reexamine their fundamental beliefs about Sunday vs. the Sabbath. Lastly, I'm sure they also have translation sales and profits to think about, and corporate sponsors to answer to.

There are a few honest translations out there that does translate "mia ton Sabbaton" as "one of the Sabbaths", and I stand by them.

 

[zeke25]

In order to understand the chronology of crucifixion week, one must first use the same calendar and times that Christ and the Pharisees were using. A day start is sunrise, not sundown. Without this understanding, and a few others, you cannot come to a proper conclusion.

 

[ananda]

In order to understand the chronology of crucifixion week, one must first use the same calendar and times that Christ and the Pharisees were using. A day start is sunrise, not sundown. Without this understanding, and a few others, you cannot come to a proper conclusion.

Where does it say that sunrise marks the beginning of a day in Scripture?

 

[zeke25]

Where does it say that sunrise marks the beginning of a day in Scripture?

The Bible teaches that a day begins at sunrise in about a dozen places, both OT and NT.

From the OT.
Exodus 12:6 TIB, "And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day (Strong's H3117 yowm) of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings (Strong's H6153 ereb). "Exodus 12:8 KJV, "And they shall eat the flesh in that night (Strong's H3915 layelah), roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it." Exodus 12:14 KJV, "And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to [Yahowah] throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever." In verse 6, the instructions given require that the animal be sacrificed in the day time on Abib 14; specifically, between the evenings. In verse 8, they are told to eat the flesh that night, which is after sundown. In verse 14, they are reminded that this day is to be kept as a memorial and a feast; and this day means both the daylight hours and the night time hours that follow the daylight hours, until the sun rises and a new day starts.

This begs the question: Which day is to be kept as a feast? The day of Passover is first identified as the fourteenth. The Passover lamb was to be sacrificed on the fourteenth (verse 6) prior to sundown. But the feast was to be conducted after sundown, at night (verse 8). If a day begins at sunrise, then there is no problem, both the day and the night that follows are the fourteenth. But if a day begins at sundown (and it does not), then the sacrifice occurs on the fourteenth and the feast occurs on the fifteenth. How can verse 14 be correct - "And this day…keep it a feast" - if the feast is not on Abib 14?

There can be no Passover feast without a Passover sacrifice. Thus, the instructions in verse 14 to keep this day as a memorial, must mean the day of Passover. It does not mean the days of Passover, as if there are two separate days: one for the sacrifice and the second for the feast. It means that there is only one day and only one Passover. Yes, the Passover comes in two parts, but both parts must occur on the same day because verse 14 says "this day shall be unto you for a memorial".

Besides, the Hebrews departed from Rameses on the night of Abib 15 (which is the following night after Passover, Ex 12:42 & Dt 16:1). Those who teach that a day begins at sundown would have the Hebrews departing on the same night in which they ate the Passover. This we know, in accordance with the Scriptures, is impossible.

From the NT:
Matthew 28:1 KJV, "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." Matthew 28:1 TIB, "After the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the grave."

The wording in Matthew 28:1 in both of these translations make it clear that the sabbath was ending because the day was dawning. The wording does not permit the sabbath to have ended the night before at sundown, and now the Marys were arriving approximately twelve hours later. Even the statement "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths" shows that a day begins at sunrise. This first of the sabbaths, beginning at dawn, was the beginning of the count of the seven sabbaths to the Feast of Weeks. In other words, the beginning of the counting is shown to be starting at sunrise, not sundown the night before.

Zeke25

 

[ananda]

The Bible teaches that a day begins at sunrise in about a dozen places, both OT and NT. From the OT. Exodus 12:6 .. Exodus 12:8 ... Exodus 12:14 KJV ...this day means both the daylight hours and the night time hours that follow the daylight hours, until the sun rises and a new day starts.

None of these verses you quoted states that a day starts with sunrise.

From the NT: Matthew 28:1 KJV, "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." Matthew 28:1 TIB, "After the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the grave." The wording in Matthew 28:1 in both of these translations make it clear that the sabbath was ending because the day was dawning. The wording does not permit the sabbath to have ended the night before at sundown, and now the Marys were arriving approximately twelve hours later. Even the statement "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths" shows that a day begins at sunrise. This first of the sabbaths, beginning at dawn, was the beginning of the count of the seven sabbaths to the Feast of Weeks. In other words, the beginning of the counting is shown to be starting at sunrise, not sundown the night before.

Not so.

I suggest this as a more correct translation:

27:66-28:1a they went, and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch: now it is the evening of the [High] Sabbath. ("opse de Sabbaton" in the Greek).
28:1b As it began to dawn in one of the [weekly] sabbaths ("mian sabbaton" in the Greek), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the tomb.

I suggest that whomever divided the Greek into verses made a bad choice to start 28:1 where it is in most Bibles today. The first part of 28:1 actually belongs with 27:66.

The account is stating that the tomb was sealed on the evening of the High Sabbath (First Day of Unleavened Bread). Then, on the weekly sabbath, as it began to dawn (yet while it was still dark, harmonizing with Jn 20:1, e.g.: around 3.a.m. on Saturday), the women came to see the tomb. This occurred before sunrise.

 

[zeke25]

netzarim said: None of these verses you quoted states that a day starts with sunrise.

zeke25:Of course Ex 12:6,8,14, demonstrate that a day start is sunrise. For you to merely state that it doesn't, does not support your cause. Please, place those Scriptures in a sundown to sundown day and demonstrate how they can possibly fit into that defunct scenario. Passover is continually identified as a single day, it is never described anywhere in Scripture as more than one day.


netzarim said: Not so.

I suggest this as a more correct translation:27:66-28:1a they went, and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch: now it is the evening of the [High] Sabbath. ("opse de Sabbaton" in the Greek).


zeke25: I don't know which translation you are using, but it is not superior to the Textus Receptus. I quoted from the TIB (The Interlinear Bible) which is a word for word translation from the Textus Receptus (I also quoted from the KJV). Mt. 28:1 does not begin with your suggested translation (I am glad you merely suggested it): "now it is the evening of the [High] Sabbath."

Here is Mt. 28:1a again from another valid word for word translation: Matthew 28:1a YLT, "And on the eve of the sabbaths…". This translation is in agreement with Jay P. Green's TIB from the Textus Receptus: "After the sabbaths...".

So if you want to go against the King James Version and the Textus Receptus and Young's Literal Translation and insert your "suggestion" that is fine as long as you are comfortable with it. I prefer to be scholastically honest and not manipulate the Scriptures with a predetermined agenda. I have no agenda to make the Scriptures teach a sundown day start or a sunrise day start. I merely studied them to see what they teach. I found that they teach a sunrise day start. Also, you inserted "High" sabbath with no justification for doing so: "High" is not in the manuscripts for Matthew 28:1. Therefore, if you were asserting more than a mere "suggestion" you would be guilty of adding to the Scriptures (which is forbidden).

netvarim said: 28:1b As it began to dawn in one of the [weekly] sabbaths ("mian sabbaton" in the Greek), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the tomb.

zeke25:Here you have added "weekly" with no justification for doing so. The King James translators added "week" as well with no justification for doing so: One might conclude that they failed to recognize that the counting of the sabbaths to Shavuot was being. Jay P. Green and Robert Young made no such assumptions, nor were they pushing an agenda. They simply translated the manuscript as it was written.

netvarim said: I suggest that whomever divided the Greek into verses made a bad choice to start 28:1 where it is in most Bibles today. The first part of 28:1 actually belongs with 27:66.

zeke25:I don't agree with this of course. But it is not relative. We are told by YLT that it was the eve (ending of the sabbaths) and we are told by the Textus Receptus that it was dawning into the first (not "one" as you pose) of the sabbaths. This first of the sabbaths was certainly not referring to the past week, because those two sabbaths were already history. (Besides, the two sabbaths that just passed were referred to in Mt. 28:1a where it states "after the sabbaths"). "The first of the sabbaths" was clearly referring to the seven sabbath count to Shavuot as it teaches us in the Pentatuch. The second day after Passover Abib 14 is Sunday Abib 16 - Sheaf Wave Day. This is where the counting of the seven sabbaths to the Feast of Weeks begins. Surely you do not need the Scriptures quoted for you.

netvarim said: The account is stating that the tomb was sealed on the evening of the High Sabbath (First Day of Unleavened Bread). Then, on the weekly sabbath, as it began to dawn (yet while it was still dark, harmonizing with Jn 20:1, e.g.: around 3.a.m. on Saturday), the women came to see the tomb. This occurred before sunrise.


zeke25:The account is not referring to the evening of the "High Sabbath" at all. The Pharisees asked Pilate to seal the tomb on the day after the crucifixion. Therefore, it was Friday Abib 14 when they made their request. Yahoshua had already been in this sepulchre one night. Why were they not worried that His body could have been stolen the first night? Why did they wait? They were not concerned because they believed Him. He told them He would rise on the third day, not after one day.

Also, you have introduced a term that confuses many: "First Day of Unleavened Bread". It can also be used to cause confusion when not defined. The first day that unleavened bread was eaten was Friday Abib 14 after sundown during the Passover Feast. But this is technically not the first day of unleavened bread. The seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins the day after (the morning after) Passover. The Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on Saturday Abib 15 - this is the first day of unleavened bread. It will continue for seven days until Friday Abib 22. I am not discussing how the Jews currently celebrate these two back-to-back sabbaths in modern times, in our times - because they have a corrupted approach. I am discussing how the Bible teaches that these sabbaths are to be celebrated.

John 20:1 shows that the women did arrive at the tomb on Saturday, prior to Sunday sunrise. Where you got 3 AM from I'll never know, because Mt. 28:1 says that it was dawning - dawn doesn't happen at 3 AM. Mark 16:2 says that the sun was rising - the sun doesn't start rising at 3 AM.

I am getting the impression that you are not serious about this discussion or are grossly deficient in your studies. Another possibility is that you have an agenda. Whatever, I can see no value in continuing to critique your short-sighted observations and suggestions. It would behoove you to accept what the Scriptures teach, not what man has taught you. Besides, you have two hurdles of a sunrise day start that you cannot overcome, and there are about 10 more to go.

 

[ananda]

netzarim said: None of these verses you quoted states that a day starts with sunrise. zeke25:Of course Ex 12:6,8,14, demonstrate that a day start is sunrise. For you to merely state that it doesn't, does not support your cause.

None of your verses state "sunrise". Your constant re-assertion does not make it true.

netzarim said: Not so. I suggest this as a more correct translation:27:66-28:1a they went, and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch: now it is the evening of the [High] Sabbath. ("opse de Sabbaton" in the Greek). zeke25: I don't know which translation you are using, but it is not superior to the Textus Receptus ... So if you want to go against the King James Version and the Textus Receptus and Young's Literal Translation and insert your "suggestion" that is fine as long as you are comfortable with it. Also, you inserted "High" sabbath with no justification for doing so: "High" is not in the manuscripts for Matthew 28:1. ... Here you have added "weekly" with no justification for doing so.

"High" and "weekly" were my glosses, and I made it clear it was so by italics and brackets.

netvarim said: I suggest that whomever divided the Greek into verses made a bad choice to start 28:1 where it is in most Bibles today. The first part of 28:1 actually belongs with 27:66. zeke25:I don't agree with this of course. But it is not relative. We are told by YLT that it was the eve (ending of the sabbaths) and we are told by the Textus Receptus that it was dawning into the first (not "one" as you pose) of the sabbaths.

I disagree. "μίαν" is always properly translated "one" - not "first."

netvarim said: The account is stating that the tomb was sealed on the evening of the High Sabbath (First Day of Unleavened Bread). Then, on the weekly sabbath, as it began to dawn (yet while it was still dark, harmonizing with Jn 20:1, e.g.: around 3.a.m. on Saturday), the women came to see the tomb. This occurred before sunrise. zeke25:The account is not referring to the evening of the "High Sabbath" at all. The Pharisees asked Pilate to seal the tomb on the day after the crucifixion. Therefore, it was Friday Abib 14 when they made their request. Yahoshua had already been in this sepulchre one night. Why were they not worried that His body could have been stolen the first night? Why did they wait? They were not concerned because they believed Him. He told them He would rise on the third day, not after one day.

Correct, and my timeline incorporates three full days and three full nights - not one and a half days, if according to you, He was buried on a Friday and rose Sunday.

Also, you have introduced a term that confuses many: "First Day of Unleavened Bread". It can also be used to cause confusion when not defined. The first day that unleavened bread was eaten was Friday Abib 14 after sundown during the Passover Feast.

Passover itself occured on a Monday-Tuesday (March 26th-27th, 14 Aviv) on my timeline in 31 A.D. Which year are you referrring to?

John 20:1 shows that the women did arrive at the tomb on Saturday, prior to Sunday sunrise. Where you got 3 AM from I'll never know, because Mt. 28:1 says that it was dawning - dawn doesn't happen at 3 AM. Mark 16:2 says that the sun was rising - the sun doesn't start rising at 3 AM.

The time period referred to is the time when the sky begins to get brighter, before actual sunrise itself. I merely suggested 3 a.m. as a potential reference, not as a definite & specific time. Mk 16:2 uses the Greek word "πρωῒ" which refers to the period of time between 3am and 6am - easily the period of time before sunrise. This harmonizes easily with the accounts in the other gospels, and supports my timeline.

I am getting the impression that you are not serious about this discussion or are grossly deficient in your studies. Another possibility is that you have an agenda. Whatever, I can see no value in continuing to critique your short-sighted observations and suggestions. It would behoove you to accept what the Scriptures teach, not what man has taught you. Besides, you have two hurdles of a sunrise day start that you cannot overcome, and there are about 10 more to go.

Obviously, you have not read through this thread where I addressed many of your points already. Secondly, everyone has an "agenda" - yours apparently is to defend orthodoxy. Also, since you have decided to descend into ad hominem attacks instead of sticking to addressing the facts, this ends my conversation with you.

 

[Standing Up]

netzarim said: None of these verses you quoted states that a day starts with sunrise.

zeke25:Of course Ex 12:6,8,14, demonstrate that a day start is sunrise. For you to merely state that it doesn't, does not support your cause. Please, place those Scriptures in a sundown to sundown day and demonstrate how they can possibly fit into that defunct scenario. Passover is continually identified as a single day, it is never described anywhere in Scripture as more than one day.
-snip-

Sunset to sunset was the day (evening morning a day).

This is the 10th day of the 7th month, atonement.
Lev. 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

They slew the lamb at sunset as the 14th began per Ex. 12:6,8,14.

 

[zeke25]

Sunset to sunset was the day (evening morning a day).

This is the 10th day of the 7th month, atonement.
Lev. 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

They slew the lamb at sunset as the 14th began per Ex. 12:6,8,14.

Standing Up said: "Sunset to sunset was the day (evening morning a day)."

Why would this convince anyone that a day begins at sunset when you have ended your sentence with the morning beginning? When morning begins (sunrise), then a day begins.

Leviticus 23:32 KJV, "It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." This Scripture, possibly more than any other, proves a sunrise day start. The Day of Atonement is identified as the 10th of the month in other Scriptures (one place is Le 23:27). If a day start was sundown (and it is not) there would be no need for the instructions given here in verse 32: "...in the ninth of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." The ninth of the month at the second even (sundown) it would become the tenth, if a day start was sundown (which it is not). Therefore, why even mention the 9th? There is no need to mention the 9th if a day start is sundown. But a day start is sunrise, therefore these instructions are needed to show that Yahowah wanted this particular sabbath (and no other) to begin approximately 12 hours early, which would be the 9th. If a day start were sundown (and it is not) then to mention the 9th is irrelevant. The Holy Spirit does not speak irrelevancies.

Exodus 12:6,8,14 in no way states that the lamb was slain at sunset; nor do these verses state that the lamb was slain as the 14th began. The lamb was slain between the evenings - that is the afternoon of the 14th in modern (our time) time keeping. The Hebrew Stone Edition Tanach Bible words it this way: "It shall be yours for examination until the fourteenth day of this month; the entire congregation of the assembly of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon."

The KJV says in Ex 12:6 that it will be killed in the evening. One must study the Scriptures to know that in Biblical time keeping there is no such time period as "afternoon". Whenever, any Scripture uses the word "afternoon" they are bringing the verse into a modern (our time) context. In the Bible there are only three parts of a day: morning, evening, night. "Evening" is from noon to sundown; in other words, it is our modern day concept of "afternoon".

Another mistake many make in considering the day of Passover during crucifixion week. They use the current Jewish calendar and work backwards in time. The calendar in use during crucifixion week was the same calendar in use since the beginning (with a few necessary tweaks due to changes in the relationship between the earth, sun, and moon over the millenniums). But tweaks or no tweaks, Passover is always on a Friday - never any other day of the week. Passover is always on Abib 14. Any other calendar that identifies it at a different time is corrupted and not worthy of use. The first day of the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is always on a Saturday/sabbath - never any other day of the week: It also always begins on Abib 15.

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up said: "Sunset to sunset was the day (evening morning a day)."

Why would this convince anyone that a day begins at sunset when you have ended your sentence with the morning beginning? When morning begins (sunrise), then a day begins.

Leviticus 23:32 KJV, "It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." This Scripture, possibly more than any other, proves a sunrise day start. The Day of Atonement is identified as the 10th of the month in other Scriptures (one place is Le 23:27). If a day start was sundown (and it is not) there would be no need for the instructions given here in verse 32: "...in the ninth of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." The ninth of the month at the second even (sundown) it would become the tenth, if a day start was sundown (which it is not). Therefore, why even mention the 9th? There is no need to mention the 9th if a day start is sundown. But a day start is sunrise, therefore these instructions are needed to show that Yahowah wanted this particular sabbath (and no other) to begin approximately 12 hours early, which would be the 9th. If a day start were sundown (and it is not) then to mention the 9th is irrelevant. The Holy Spirit does not speak irrelevancies.

The day changes at sunset. That's why the 9th is mentioned.

Start early? There's nothing in scripture about starting early.

Exodus 12:6,8,14 in no way states that the lamb was slain at sunset; nor do these verses state that the lamb was slain as the 14th began. The lamb was slain between the evenings - that is the afternoon of the 14th in modern (our time) time keeping. The Hebrew Stone Edition Tanach Bible words it this way: "It shall be yours for examination until the fourteenth day of this month; the entire congregation of the assembly of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon."

The KJV says in Ex 12:6 that it will be killed in the evening. One must study the Scriptures to know that in Biblical time keeping there is no such time period as "afternoon". Whenever, any Scripture uses the word "afternoon" they are bringing the verse into a modern (our time) context. In the Bible there are only three parts of a day: morning, evening, night. "Evening" is from noon to sundown; in other words, it is our modern day concept of "afternoon".

Another mistake many make in considering the day of Passover during crucifixion week. They use the current Jewish calendar and work backwards in time. The calendar in use during crucifixion week was the same calendar in use since the beginning (with a few necessary tweaks due to changes in the relationship between the earth, sun, and moon over the millenniums). But tweaks or no tweaks, Passover is always on a Friday - never any other day of the week. Passover is always on Abib 14. Any other calendar that identifies it at a different time is corrupted and not worthy of use. The first day of the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is always on a Saturday/sabbath - never any other day of the week: It also always begins on Abib 15.

So, you no longer argue for a Wednesday crucifixion?