• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by AbbaLove, Mar 17, 2016.

  1. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,026
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    It did not take long after Paul died for wolves, false teachers, false prophets, and false brethren to corrupt the truth. The Sabbath was one of the first truths to be corrupted.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  2. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

    +587
    Messianic
    In Relationship

    ... we hope RT is close to being down and out for the final count ...
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,450
    Messianic
    No.. you can't teach doctrine contrary to the bible and Messianic Judaism
     
  4. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

    +319
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    But several of the doctrines being taught on here by Messianic Jews are contrary to the Bible. And doctrines consistent with the Bible are shunned with anti-gentile scorn. So this is really just a thread of fiat doctrine. You're all correct because you say so, and lacking the proper pedigree, no one from the outside has the innate ability to have knowledge to the contrary.

    That's essentially what I've been told. Feel free to review the posts.
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,026
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    There are Messianics that do believe Messiah died on a Friday. Since this is not a salvation issue, I don't see why we can't entertain various views. Messianics are fallible people who might possibly have a wrong understanding. I can see not allowing non-Messianics to teach against the Sabbath since that is a crucial doctrine, but what day Messiah died isn't.
     
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,450
    Messianic
    When it comes to the Sabbath, the Bible is clear and there is no authorization from God to keep Sunday as the day of worship.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  7. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

    +319
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    This thread was Maybe, "three nights and three days" ? I wasn't debating the Sabbath. I was on here hoping to discuss and debate the 72-hour hypothesis, and to test my theories against a new audience to see if they passed muster. But no one really seemed too interested in talking about three nights and three days on the three nights and three days thread.

    But relative to the topic you mentioned, let me give my two cents. There are instances in the New Testament where they are meeting on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2), and Paul does say not to let any man be our judge as it concerns new moons, feast days, or sabbaths (Colossians 2:16). I personally think the whole argument is misplaced. We're in a new covenant now. He took away the first covenant so he could establish the second (Hebrews 10:9). This pointless clinging to the old law is self destructive (Galatians 5:4). We are told to cast out the bondwoman and her son (Galatians 4:30). We shouldn't frustrate the grace of God. If righteousness is by the law, then Christ is dead in vain (Galatians 2:21).

    Ergo, if the old law is no longer relevant, which it is not, then it doesn't rightly matter what day a person chooses to worship. We should each be fully persuaded in our own minds (Romans 14:5-6). This whole thing is just a stumbling block (Romans 14:13). And it's worth noting further that the disciples were in the temple daily, not just on the sabbath (Acts 2:46).

    So seriously ... who cares if the early church changed the day of worship from the sabbath ritual of an annulled covenant to a Sunday liturgy in recognition of Christ's day of resurrection? I know I don't.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,026
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    It is obvious you don't care who changed the Sabbath because you erroneously believe the Sabbath is no longer relevant. It is also obvious from your post that you believe that way because you totally misunderstand the verses you cited. Since anti-Sabbath discussions are not permitted in this forum, I would be happy to show you, and anyone else who cares to join a PM, an alternate way of understanding those verses.
     
  9. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

    +319
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Why is it that everyone else is always the wise sage who understands better than I do? What makes you so special that you have the right of it, but I don't?

    If you want to PM me, feel free to do so with an answer as to how you figure the sabbath is still a relevant statute when the law of Moses has been conspicuously disanulled, and especially in the case of this gentile, whom the apostles themselves wrote that I was under no obligation to keep said commandment (Acts 15:23-29).

    Truthfully, I don't want to argue about such a petty topic. But it really does get my goat to see these topics day in and day out, with people arguing in complete disregard of plain, black and white scripture. I just don't get it. I don't understand how so many people can lie to themselves and be in such blatant denial about things that are clear as day.

    Would that we still had the Jews of Jesus' day. At least they knew to be quiet when the scripture proved them wrong.
     
  10. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,450
    Messianic
    And that is where you are wrong... But like you said this thread is not about the Sabbath issue, which I responded to your post about, and if you want to continue, please start another thread specific to the subject. Like you said this thread is about the three day and night which we shall return to.
     
  11. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

    +319
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Glad to do so. That's what I was invited over to discuss, and what I enjoy discussing. So if you or anyone else is open to intelligent discussion and debate about that subject matter, then let's let iron sharpen iron.
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

    +1,605
    Canada
    Messianic
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    Personally.... I think that it is a lot easier to admit that the crucifixion may have been on a Wednesday........
    the High Holy Day of the First Day of Unleavened Bread may have began Wednesday at sunset and went to Thursday at Sunset........

    Messiah Yeshua - Jesus may have been buried late Wednesday afternoon or early evening.... before sunset.

    Then the disciples rested on the annual High Sabbath.... Then the disciples prepared the spices for his burial on Friday..... and went early Sunday morning to the tomb...... and he was already risen...... I would assume 72 hours from the time of his burial..... so a late Sabbath Afternoon resurrection.........

    I think that that is a lot easier to explain.......
     
  13. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

    +319
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    What Hebrew date would you suggest is being represented in these two passages?

    Mark 14:12 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

    Luke 22:7-8 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
     
  14. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,026
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    I would say Abib 14.
     
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,450
    Messianic
    MARK 14:1 After two days was the feast of the Passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.... 17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

    To understand the Hebrew mindset, we can see even to this day where an orthodox rabbi will meet on the day before the Passover with His students and conduct a training lesson on the Passover Seder. In the Lubavitch rabbinic movement they gather together the night before the Passover for what they call the “Moschiach’s Supper”. Belief in the eventual coming of the Mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism and Lubavitch is considered a Messiah by many of his followers. The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

    They were going to eat the Passover (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12,14; Luke 22:8). The explicit statement of Yeshua that he was eating the Passover with his disciples (Luke 22:15). Yeshua said He had wanted to eat the Passover with them, doesn't mean that what they were eating was the Passover. He could have easily meant that He was disappointed that He would not be able to do so. "And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer" This doesn't mean that He did.

    It was on eve of the 14th of Nisan, Yeshua met with his disciples in the Upper Room which stood over the Tomb of David. This supper was a rehearsal supper for the Passover Seder to be done after the slaying of the Lambs on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan, and to be eaten on the eve of the 15th of Nisan, the Passover Seder. Although it does get confusing when you read MARK 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, (14 Abib-Nisan) his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? 13. And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. 14. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guest chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 15. And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. 16. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 17. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

    In that night, 14 Nisan, Yeshua was betrayed and arrested.

    It was here Yeshua had the famous Last Supper. Was the Last Supper a Passover Seder? I could have been an Essene Seder. The evidence suggests that they were discussing and preparing for the Sedar. On the table in the Upper Terrace, there was no evidence of a Passover lamb, but this is the reason it could have been an Essene Passover on Wednesday.

    During the Last Supper, Yeshua sopped the bread suggesting that it was leavened. Neither does it specifically state that it was unleavened bread. All through the gospels there are specific references when the rules of the halakah or the rules on how to observe the Mosaic law were followed. There is no such mention here. Yeshua gave the last piece of leavened sopped bread to Judas. This suggests that Judas was the leavening in the disciples. He was the contaminated one. When Yeshua gave Judas the sopped bread and he exited, "some (the other disciples) thought that, because Judas had the money box, Yeshua was telling him."Buy what we need for the feast". (John 13:29) Maybe this was a ceremony to clean the house and get rid of Chametz (leavening). When Judas left, the Chametz (leavening) was gone.

    Of the four gospels, only John was an eyewitness. As a Levite or intimately known to the House of Ananas, he stated, “now before the feast of the Passover”. So that again suggest to me that this Passover Seder could have been an Essene seder, that was celebrated without the Korban Lamb. (John 13:1-20) According to Mark and Luke, they wrote, “And before the first day of Chag Matzoth (Feast of Unleavened Bread), when they killed the Pesach (Passover lamb), His talmidim (disciples) said to Him, ‘Where do You desire that we go and prepare so that you may eat the Pesach?’” (Mark 14:12-16, Luke 22:7-13 Restoration Scripture)

    Pilgrims were already purified by this time by immersing in their mikvah baths, so the washing of feet would not have been performed on the Passover. The washing of feet could have been a symbolic mikvah, to occur prior to the Passover. I am not to sure if this was no more than a regular feature of guests of the house getting their feet washed.
     
  16. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

    +319
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I didn't ask for all of that explanation you gave. I simply asked: What Hebrew date would you suggest is being represented in these two passages?

    Mark 14:12 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

    Luke 22:7-8 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

    These two passages are key to the whole debate.

    I see from the interpretation of the passages you've given where your point of view is coming from; a "Restoration Scripture." I'm here to tell you that it's a corruption. I don't know if you mean to say that you're quoting a formal work that has this corruption, or if you are the one to "restore" the scripture in this example and create the corruption. Either way, it's a corruption. Neither passage says that it was the day before the first day of unleavened bread.

    The clause is καὶ τῇ πρώτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν ἀζύμων.

    There is case and number agreement between τῇ, πρώτῃ, and ἡμέρᾳ, causing πρώτῃ (which as a superlative means the very first, or first-most) to function as an adjective modifying ἡμέρᾳ (day), and not as a preposition expressing time (before). It’s not “on the before day,” but, “on the very first day.”

    The remainder of the clause, in a plural, genitive agreement, then forms the prepositional phrase τῶν ἀζύμων, or “of the [days] of unleavened [bread],” to define the range of days that the very first day is the very first of.

    The clause reads, And on the very first day of the [days of] unleavened [bread] …

    Those considering this line of reasoning a valid retranslation should abandon it. In its context, πρώτῃ is an adjective, and can’t be translated as before, however much some might want it to be. There's a reason it has been translated as it has.
     
  17. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,026
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    So what do you do with the phrase, "when they killed the passover"? It was always killed on the afternoon of Abib 14, not at any time on Abib 15. Yeshua's death at exactly 3:00 pm on Abib 14 fulfills the Passover exactly.
     
  18. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

    +319
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    That's quite the important question.

    Mark and Luke are explicit that the afternoon preceding the last supper was the 14th day of Nisan. It was the first day of unleavened bread, which is the 14th day (all leaven was burned at noon on the 14th day), and it was the day when the passover was slain, which is the 14th, from the ninth to the eleventh hour.

    Thus, the physical chronology, all theological interpretations notwithstanding, puts the last supper on the evening of the 14th, and the crucifixion on the morning of the 15th. Understand that theology does not dictate physical chronology. It would be ideal if Jesus died on the 14th, but three of the gospels are specific in stating otherwise.

    What I "do" with the phrase, "when they killed the passover," is accept it as the truth, since it is the word of God. On the 14th day of Nisan, which is the first day when leaven was not to be possessed, and the day when the passover is slain, the disciples came to Jesus asking where he wanted them to prepare so he could eat the passover. He sent them to Jerusalem, where they would find a certain man. He would show them to the guestchamber, which would be furnished and prepared. There they were to make ready the passover so they could all eat. And the disciples did as instructed and made ready the passover.
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,450
    Messianic
    Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43. Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Yeshua.

    John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

    There was one vital nugget of information. Joseph of Arimathea was the brother to the father of Yeshua’ mother, Miriam, and the great uncle to Yeshua HaMaschiach (Yeshua the Messiah). Together, Joseph and Nicodemus took the body of Yeshua and placed Him in a newly cut family tomb. After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a DISCIPLE OF YESHUA, BUT SECRETLY, FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Yeshua; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Yeshua. And NICODEMUS, who at first came to Yeshua by night, also came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. Then they took the body of Yeshua, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. So there they laid Yeshua, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. -- John 19:38-42, NKJV.

    Feast of Unleaven Bread [known today as just Passover] begins on the 15th day of the month of Nisan in the Jewish calendar, which is in spring in the Northern Hemisphere, and is celebrated for seven or eight days. It is one of the most widely observed Jewish holidays. It is a Sabbath, a high holiday day.

    There were two Sabbaths that week that Yeshua died. The first one occurred on the evening of the crucifixion. Luke 23:52–54; Mark 15:42 Yeshua is buried at the end of preparation day before the Sabbath. He is took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone. The “sacrifice” and “festival” could not begin until the sun had set on the western horizon and three stars were seen in the darkness of the heavens that occurred on the “first day” after the seventh-day Shabbat of the Passover weekend. The fact that Yeshua was in the tomb from Wednesday evening (eve of Thursday) until Saturday evening (eve of Sunday), the first day, made this Passover celebration three days until the “Counting of the Omer” could begin on the first day after the seventh-day Shabbat of Passover.

    Leviticus 23:6-8 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation [Sabbath]: ye shall do no servile work therein.

    You can not purchase spices until after the Sabbath, and yet prepare those spices before the Sabbath.

    Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

    Luke 23:56 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

    Yeshua was crucified on Wednesday and then the high Holy Day [Feast of Unleaven Bread] began Wednesday night at sundown and end at Thursday sundown which would be the beginning of the Friday, the weekly preparation for weekly Sabbath. This is why the women did not have time between the Sabbaths to anoint him.

    I don't see how they could be furnished with pestles and mortars and other vessels for pounding mixing and melting spices in short order. I rather think they bought spices already mixed into an ointment prepared and fitted for the use intended by them. In countries where embalming was in use and where they buried soon after men had expired and especially in great cities and near them such as Jerusalem there must have been shops or warehouses of apothecaries or embalmers or confectioners where spices of all sorts proper for funeral rites and also bandages and rollers might be had and upon the shortest notice for all sorts of persons according to their circumstances. It would be costly. In this instance, the apostles and friends were not prepared for the burial of our Savior and the women would have to take up a collection.

    Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus came to the place bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes about an hundred pound weight because they could afford the best. They took the body of Yeshua and wound it in linen clothes or bandages with spices as the manner of the Jews used is to bury. After the death, the family members gathered to ceremoniously prepare the body. The body was cleansed, anointed with oils and spices, and wrapped in a special linen cloth. The anointing and preparing of the body requires a special blend of essential oils and spices. The common essential oils and spices used include sandalwood, myrrh, spikenard, frankincense, fir balsam, myrtle, pine, cypress and spruce with extra virgin olive oil. These oils have been used for hundreds of years for this primary purpose of preparing and purifying the dead. Joseph, being the rich uncle could afford and probably thought it was his job as the family member to step up to the plate and do this.



     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,450
    Messianic
    I believe Yeshua followed and fulfilled the feasts even in his death and resurrection.

    I Corinthians 15:20 - “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.”

    Colossians 1:18 - “And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”


    Understanding the details of the Festival of Fruit Fruits leads one to suspect that the resurrection of Yeshua was actually just after the evening sunset of the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. The great energizing power of the Divine quickened the body of Yeshua and brought him forth from the grave in his glorified body. Many tombs were opened at the time of the earthquake at Yeshua’s death, and

    Matthew 27:52-53 – “Many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared too many people.

    So the evidence of the harvesting of the first fruits for the Festival of First Fruits very well gives us clues as to the timing of the resurrection of Yeshua and those saints which arose with him, the latter as the “first fruits of they that slept.”

    Matthew 28:1-8 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightening, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Yeshua who has been crucified. He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you." And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples.

    John 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. The disciples who walked with Yeshua on the road to Emmaus did so on the “same day” of His resurrection.

    Luke 24:13-22 the disciples who didn’t recognize Yeshua, told Him about His resurrection “it is now the third day since these things happened.”
     
Loading...