Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

[klutedavid]

​

Thank goodness as the LORD knew it is based on RCC religious interpretation. Less reason to read RCC literature supporting a 'good friday' after you used the expression "but no dice" (as not thrown in favor of RCC interpretation) ...

dice: any game involving chance in which dice are thrown​

Mr. Tennet's very knowledgeable Biblical research supports a 5th Jewish Day (not a Roman friday) for the Crucifixion and burial. Tennet's detailed research is online for you to examine for your own benefit.

The Messianic Feast by author T. Alex Tennent
​

The Messianic Feast was awarded a gold medal by the prestigious 2014 Independent Publisher (IPPY) awards. Out of some 5,500 entries there were only about 90 gold medals awarded.

A fair-minded researcher should be willing to examine other definable research even if it calls into question the RCCs pedagogical dogma. Just one of many examples of the RCCs complicity in the wrongful act of eliminating the 2nd Commandment and changing the wording and order of GOD's Ten Commandments. The following is the RCCs change of the Ten Commandments from the original in Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:7-21 to that of their man-made Catechism ...

1. I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt not have any strange gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. (NOTE: The RCC likes to place graven images in prominent places in their church edifices so they removed GOD's 2nd Commandment)
   
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day. (NOTE: Changed to the Roman sunday instead of the original Sabbath being the 7th Day of the Hebrew week.
   
4. Honor thy Father and Mother.
   
5. Thou shalt not kill.
   
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
   
7. Thou shalt not steal.
   
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife.
   
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods. (NOTE: The RCC divided the original 10th Commandment into two parts in order to again arrive at their ten commandments having removed GOD's 2nd Commandment).

Original Order As Ordained By GOD ...

1. “You shall have no other gods before me."
2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God and only worthy of worship, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."
3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."
6. “You shall not murder."
7. “You shall not commit adultery."
8. “You shall not steal."
9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”

You come across as if GOD has chosen the RCC to be the world's religious order and everyone including Messianic Jews should fall inline to the Crucifixion and burial occurring on a Roman friday as if whatever the RCC mandates is ordained by GOD.

​

You mentioned the RCC and changing the Sabbath day?

You need to examine church history.

 

[AbbaLove]

I actually invited Mr Frazier to this thread because I wanted to get comments here regarding his theory. We had quite a debate in the other thread.
Shabbat Shalom!

Agreed, his "theory" is not consistent with more knowledgeable Biblical interpretation by Messianic Judaism that favors either the 4th day or 5th day of the Jewish week for the Crucifixion and burial of Yeshua HaMashiach. He is lacking in the understanding of Hebrew/Jewish beliefs about their dead. One example is the reason why it's believed that Yeshua waited into the 4th Jewish Day before raising Lazarus again to life. Thus the reason why some translations of Yeshua's words read "after three days he will rise again" (Mark 9:31).

Of all his many posts no MJ member of this Messianic forum has yet to award him a "Like", "Agree," "Informative" or even "Useful" rating and now he's insulted because i listed seven reasons why i believe that is the case. And yet as an invited guest to this MJ forum he now threatens to report me.

You need to examine church history.

Whether correct or not it's generally believed that as early as Augustine that the ingrained thinking within the "church" was to make changes to the LORD's Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) by eliminating the LORD's original Second Commandment, eliminating the LORD's 7th Day Sabbath Commandment by replacing it with Sunday, and dividing the LORD's original Tenth Commandment into two parts so as to end up with the "church's" altered ten commandments. And yet he believes the "church's" Friday "theory" is definable truth. In like manner the "church" believes their altered ten commandments are definable truth. Perhaps, it should be him that is reported for teaching a Friday timeline doctrine in this Messianic Judaism forum when it is not embraced by Messianic Judaism.

Yeshua honored the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20:1-17. There is no reference in the Gospels that Yeshua ever suggested that Messianic Jews need not honor the Fourth Commandment to remember the 7th Day Sabbath to keep it Holy.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."​

Shabbat Shalom!
​

 

[visionary]

You mentioned the RCC and changing the Sabbath day? You need to examine church history.

and you found different?

 

[AFrazier]

​

Agreed, his "theory" is not consistent with more knowledgeable Biblical interpretation by Messianic Judaism that favors either the 4th day or 5th day of the Jewish week for the Crucifixion and burial of Yeshua HaMashiach. He is lacking in the understanding of Hebrew/Jewish beliefs about their dead. One example is the reason why it's believed that Yeshua waited into the 4th Jewish Day before raising Lazarus again to life. Thus the reason why some translations of Yeshua's words read "after three days he will rise again" (Mark 9:31).

Of all his many posts no MJ member of this Messianic forum has yet to award him a "Like", "Agree," "Informative" or even "Useful" rating and now he's insulted because i listed seven reasons why i believe that is the case. And yet as an invited guest to this MJ forum he now threatens to report me.

Let me clarify a few things for you.

Firstly, I am quite educated in Judaism. I'm not the least bit ignorant of the arguments that have been presented on this thread, where they come from, how they are defended, etc. Besides the Bible, I also study the Talmud, and a wide variety of Jewish and secular histories. I have spent nearly twenty years researching the topics being discussed here. Your elitist attitude is presumptuous, to say the least. I know perfectly well the relevance of three days dead versus four days dead in first century Jewish culture. Talking about me as though I'm just some ignorant Catholic who doesn't understand the deeper subject matter is arrogant on your part.

Secondly, I've only made a couple of brief posts in the last few days, on a thread that is two years old. There hasn't been much time for anyone to "Like," "Agree," or consider them "Useful." Furthermore, I don't expect any such ratings, because this thread is full of people who believe that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday or a Thursday, and who believe that he was crucified on the 14th of Nisan. Worse still, several are leaning towards a year as early as 30 CE. Since I believe that he died on a Friday (per the scripture), and on the 15th of Nisan (per the scripture), and in 34 CE, I fully expect that my posts will not be "Liked," "Agreed" with, or "Useful," because no one likes to be disagreed with, no one agrees with something that disagrees with them, and no one who has their mind made up and is incapable of objective reasoning is going to find a rebuttal useful.

As for your list ...

• One doesn't put out a book in a year. It takes years of research and study. I'm in that process, and have been for almost twenty years.
• You have no actual idea how knowledgeable I am, or am not, when it comes to the timeline of Pesach and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That's pure presumptuousness on your part.
• I went to the link you provided for Tennent's work. I read what was available. You only assumed I had not. Nothing he had to say was new to me, and I wasn't all that impressed.
• What "Likes" or "Agrees" I get, or do not get, have no bearing on the truth of scripture. Truth by popular consent is not how one determines the validity of a theory. Facts are.
• After nearly twenty years of researching the topics being discussed here, I am an expert. This is my field of expertise. And Tennent is as published as I am. As you noted, he won the 2014 Independent Publisher (IPPY) award. That's an independent publisher, meaning he's self published. I'm self published as well. The Salvation Enigma has been available for a year now. It's not like Tennent is on the level of Vered Noam. She is an expert in Hebrew subject matter.
• Jewish nomenclature and lineage has no bearing whatsoever on facts, conclusions, or the level or range of someone's knowledge on a subject. I acknowledge that passover begins on the 14th of Nisan. And just because I choose to say Thursday or Friday instead of the fifth day or sixth day, that does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that I don't know the Jewish nomenclature. I just choose not to use it, because I speak English. I don't see the point. And in fact, I have often considered the use of Hebrew nomenclature in English conversations to be pretentious (although I do now acknowledge that in certain groups, such a thing may be the norm, so I am reconsidering my point of view on that).
• And no, I did not come to argue. I came to discuss and debate. Although I do think that if Tennent's conclusion is that Jesus was crucified on the 5th day of the week, then his knowledge, whether he be a Messianic Jew or a Green Spaghetti Monster, is not superior to my own. As I pointed out, which you completely ignored in your demeaning and degrading posts ... a fifth day crucifixion has Jesus profaning the sabbath by riding an ass on the sabbath day. I provided all the scripture and support for the argument. If you don't agree, you have but to rebut what I posted with facts to support an opposing conclusion.

Finally, I'm insulted because you insulted me. There are strict rules against goading. You have condescended to me because I'm not a Jew. And that's wrong. You shouldn't have done it.

If you care to discuss the topics on the thread, I'm game, as long as you can be civil. If you can't behave like a Christian and show me at least a modicum of courtesy, then we don't need to speak at all.

 

[klutedavid]

and you found different?

There was a church council held in Laodicea in 363 AD. This council introduced two canons.

Canon XVI
The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath, with the other Scriptures.

Canon XXIX.
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

No bishop from Rome was in attendance at this council in Laodicea. In fact, the RCC did not yet exist in 363 AD. The catholic (universal) church was a democratic institution until at least the end of the fourth century.

The council of Laodicea was not introducing a new idea, i.e., a Sunday celebration; because churches were already gathering on Sunday.

The Laodicea council law was introduced to get universal practice across all churches.

 

[klutedavid]

​

Agreed, his "theory" is not consistent with more knowledgeable Biblical interpretation by Messianic Judaism that favors either the 4th day or 5th day of the Jewish week for the Crucifixion and burial of Yeshua HaMashiach. He is lacking in the understanding of Hebrew/Jewish beliefs about their dead. One example is the reason why it's believed that Yeshua waited into the 4th Jewish Day before raising Lazarus again to life. Thus the reason why some translations of Yeshua's words read "after three days he will rise again" (Mark 9:31).

Of all his many posts no MJ member of this Messianic forum has yet to award him a "Like", "Agree," "Informative" or even "Useful" rating and now he's insulted because i listed seven reasons why i believe that is the case. And yet as an invited guest to this MJ forum he now threatens to report me.

​

Whether correct or not it's generally believed that as early as Augustine that the ingrained thinking within the "church" was to make changes to the LORD's Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) by eliminating the LORD's original Second Commandment, eliminating the LORD's 7th Day Sabbath Commandment by replacing it with Sunday, and dividing the LORD's original Tenth Commandment into two parts so as to end up with the "church's" altered ten commandments. And yet he believes the "church's" Friday "theory" is definable truth. In like manner the "church" believes their altered ten commandments are definable truth. Perhaps, it should be him that is reported for teaching a Friday timeline doctrine in this Messianic Judaism forum when it is not embraced by Messianic Judaism.

Yeshua honored the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20:1-17. There is no reference in the Gospels that Yeshua ever suggested that Messianic Jews need not honor the Fourth Commandment to remember the 7th Day Sabbath to keep it Holy.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."​

Shabbat Shalom!
​

Hello abbalove.

What you stated is not correct.

Whether correct or not it's generally believed that as early as Augustine that the ingrained thinking within the "church" was to make changes to the LORD's Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17)

Augustine was late fourth century and into the fifth century. Changes to the Sabbath commandment to rest, had already been instituted by the Laodicea council in 363. At this time (363 AD), I remember that Augustine was just a child.

Even at the end of the first century, a letter by Barnabus mentioned gathering on Sundays. The council of Laodicea merely confirmed what had already been practiced for two centuries.

 

[visionary]

There was a church council held in Laodicea in 363 AD. This council introduced two canons.

Canon XVI
The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath, with the other Scriptures.

Canon XXIX.
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

No bishop from Rome was in attendance at this council in Laodicea. In fact, the RCC did not yet exist in 363 AD. The catholic (universal) church was a democratic institution until at least the end of the fourth century.

The council of Laodicea was not introducing a new idea, i.e., a Sunday celebration; because churches were already gathering on Sunday.

The Laodicea council law was introduced to get universal practice across all churches.

And no churches of the east who were keeping the Sabbath were invited.

 

[klutedavid]

And no churches of the east who were keeping the Sabbath were invited.

A puzzling statement by you?

Laodicea was in Asia minor which was the eastern empire.

The west was missing from the council of Laodicea.

The reverse is true.

 

[visionary]

A puzzling statement by you? Laodicea was in Asia minor which was the eastern empire. The west was missing from the council of Laodicea. The reverse is true.

The very fact that "judaizing" is mentioned should tell you that there were Sabbath keepers who were not invited. Check out all that I have collected on this matter.. Messianic History

 

[klutedavid]

The very fact that "judaizing" is mentioned should tell you that there were Sabbath keepers who were not invited. Check out all that I have collected on this matter.. Messianic History

Wait a moment my friend, you said that no churches from the east were invited, to the council of Laodicea. I just told you that the west was not in attendance. You got that wrong.

Then you replied with something about, 'judaizing'. The truth, is that both the Sabbath day and Sunday were being practiced by many churches and regions. All the council of Laodicea was really about, was a standardization of which day was celebrated and which day was important to Christianity.

The church established Christian law, and uniformity, not Judaic law.

The inquisitions, though majestic affairs, have nothing to do with this early recorded church history.

 

[klutedavid]

The very fact that "judaizing" is mentioned should tell you that there were Sabbath keepers who were not invited. Check out all that I have collected on this matter.. Messianic History

Sabbath keepers?

The church focused on celebrating the risen Christ, love feasts, these were celebrated (not resting) across the Christian world. This celebration always took place on the first day.

As I have said before, both the Sabbath and the Sunday celebration are observed in the early church (four centuries). All the council at Laodicea (east) did, was stop Christians resting on the Sabbath.

 

[visionary]

Wait a moment my friend, you said that no churches from the east were invited, to the council of Laodicea. I just told you that the west was not in attendance. You got that wrong.

Then you replied with something about, 'judaizing'. The truth, is that both the Sabbath day and Sunday were being practiced by many churches and regions. All the council of Laodicea was really about, was a standardization of which day was celebrated and which day was important to Christianity.

The church established Christian law, and uniformity, not Judaic law.

The inquisitions, though majestic affairs, have nothing to do with this early recorded church history.

After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice [the crucifixion] is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God [Hebrews 4:9] (Homily on Numbers 23, para. 4, in Migne, Patrologia Græca, Vol. 12, cols. 749, 750).

Similarly the Constitution of the Holy Apostles (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 7, p. 413; c. 3rd century) states: Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

The Sabbatati of Europe established in Milan kept the Sabbath. It was the practice generally of the Eastern Churches; and some churches of the West ... For in the Church of Millaine [Milan]; ... "it seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme ... Not that the Easterne Churches, or any of the rest which observed that day were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath " (Dr. Peter Heylyn History of the Sabbath, London 1636, Part 2, para. 5, pp. 73-74; original spelling retained).

 

[visionary]

"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church in the hands of the papacy enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments." -Walter W. Hyde, Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire, 1946, p. 261.

"Constantine's decree marked the beginning of a long, though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest" -Vincent J. Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations, 1943, p. 29.

"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation ..Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their sun-god [so they should now be combined]." -H. G. Heggtveit, Illustreret Kirkehistorie, 1895, p. 202.

 

[klutedavid]

After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice [the crucifixion] is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God [Hebrews 4:9] (Homily on Numbers 23, para. 4, in Migne, Patrologia Græca, Vol. 12, cols. 749, 750).

Similarly the Constitution of the Holy Apostles (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 7, p. 413; c. 3rd century) states: Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

The Sabbatati of Europe established in Milan kept the Sabbath. It was the practice generally of the Eastern Churches; and some churches of the West ... For in the Church of Millaine [Milan]; ... "it seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme ... Not that the Easterne Churches, or any of the rest which observed that day were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath " (Dr. Peter Heylyn History of the Sabbath, London 1636, Part 2, para. 5, pp. 73-74; original spelling retained).

This is not entirely correct.

The Sabbath day in the law is a day of rest, a day of rest from working on the other six days of the week.

The Sabbath day is not a special day to gather together to celebrate, the risen Christ, a love feast. This is exactly what the early church had to do, to define what the Sabbath represented. Then what day are we to celebrate the risen Christ.

Anyone who attempted to rest on the Sabbath, was seen to be honoring the Jewish law. They were called 'judaizers'. Church tradition before the council of Laodicea, clearly had two days recorded, the Sabbath and the Lord's day.

If you disagree with this, you are in conflict with church history.

 

[klutedavid]

"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church in the hands of the papacy enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments." -Walter W. Hyde, Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire, 1946, p. 261.

"Constantine's decree marked the beginning of a long, though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest" -Vincent J. Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations, 1943, p. 29.

"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation ..Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their sun-god [so they should now be combined]." -H. G. Heggtveit, Illustreret Kirkehistorie, 1895, p. 202.

Christians had already been gathering on the first day for over two centuries before Constantine. Emperor Constantine introduced a day of rest on Sunday for the Roman empire.

Where do you think Constantine got the idea from, out of thin air?

 

[visionary]

Christians had already been gathering on the first day for over two centuries before Constantine. Emperor Constantine introduced a day of rest on Sunday for the Roman empire.

Where do you think Constantine got the idea from, out of thin air?

Sun god Ra'

 

[klutedavid]

Sun god Ra'

Well no one is worshiping Ra, no one even knows who this this fellow is. Jews who honored the Sabbath did not even know who God was, Jesus arrived to say, hello, and no one recognized Him.

Christian history in the first three centuries is the final authority, on all matters of Christian behavior. Christian history also tells us what defines the New Testament. It has all been discussed, all the issues have been treated in the first three centuries.

 

[visionary]

This is not entirely correct.

The Sabbath day in the law is a day of rest, a day of rest from working on the other six days of the week.

The Sabbath day is not a special day to gather together to celebrate, the risen Christ, a love feast. This is exactly what the early church had to do, to define what the Sabbath represented. Then what day are we to celebrate the risen Christ.

Anyone who attempted to rest on the Sabbath, was seen to be honoring the Jewish law. They were called 'judaizers'. Church tradition before the council of Laodicea, clearly had two days recorded, the Sabbath and the Lord's day.

If you disagree with this, you are in conflict with church history.

I am in conflict with the contrived "church" history to prove the earliness of Sunday keeping. It did not happen on the apostle's watch.

 

[AbbaLove]

The gentile man-made belief that the Crucifixion occurred on the Roman day named Friday is religious "church theory". The Jewish day 14 Abib/Nisan more likely occurred on either the 4th or 5th Day of the Jewish week (Messianic Judaism timeline).

Guests (non-MJ members) posting in this Messianic Judaism forum are not allowed to teach a man-made gentile "church theory" or doctrine that is generally opposed by Messianic Judaism. That applies to the gentile church having altered the original Ten Commandments. Commandments ordained by the LORD God as honored and observed by both Yeshua and His fellow Jewish Apostles.
​

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."​

Paul's words to "highminded" religious gentile believers (e.g. altering the LORD's Ten Commandments) that justify their dogma ... "But I speak to you that are Gentiles ..." (Romans 11:20-21)

​

"After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!" (Romans 11:24)​

Guests posting in this MJ forum can ask questions but are not to teach church theory as being definable truth that is contrary/controversial to Messianic Judaism.
​

 

[AFrazier]

We can't teach what the Bible says. Got it.