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Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by AbbaLove, Mar 17, 2016.

  1. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Is it possible"three days and three nights" is a Greek mistranslation being that their day didn't begin at sundown like the Jewish day? Are we to assume that a Greek translation of a original Aramic text (Matthew 12:40) is without any translation error when Hebrew is read from right to left.

    Jonah 1:17 (Hebrew Bible)
    י u·iei and·he-is-becoming ינָה iune Jonah בִּ מְ עֵ י b·moi in·bowels-of הַ דָּ ג e·dg the·fish שְׁ 1שָׁ ה shlshe three יָמִ ים imim days וּשְׁ 1שָׁ ה u·shlshe and·three לֵ ילת liluth nights

    As we know Hebrew text (Jonah 1:17) is read from right to left which one could argue could be translated as "three nights and three days." This would then negate both a Wednesday and Friday crucifixion without the need for any so-called "synecdoche" logic; while legitimizing a 5th day (Thursday) crucifixion as well as all relevant verses (e.g. "after three days"). In other words sometime into the 4th day.

    Just maybe, Matthew 12:40 should instead have been translated as ...
    "For as Jonah was three nights and three days in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three nights and three days in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:40)

    Night 1 = 5th day beginning at sundown to 5th day sunrise (12 hrs)
    Day 1 = 5th day sunrise to 5th day sunsetting (12 hrs)
    Night 2 = 6th day beginning at sundown to 6th day sunrise (12 hrs)
    Day 2 = 6th day sunrise to 6th day sunsetting (12 hrs)
    Night 3 = 7th day beginning at sundown to 7th day sunrise (12 hrs)
    Day 3 = 7th day sunrise to 7th day sunsetting (12 hrs)
    Night 4 = 1st day beginning at sundown to 1st day sunrise when Mary approached the tomb.
    Is it not possible that Yeshua rose sometime during the first half of the 1st day of the week just before sunrise ("after three days")?​

    There are other parallels to support "after three days" (into the 4th day) ...

    There was a reason why Lazarus was in the tomb more than three days. Jesus waited four days because He knew of the Jewish superstition of that time. It was believed a soul stayed near the grave for three days, hoping to return to the body. Therefore, it was generally believed that by the fourth day there was no hope of resuscitation.

    Revelation 9:8-10 NKJV
    8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
    10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
    11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
     
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  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Friday - day
    Friday - night
    Saturday - day
    Saturday - night
    Sunday - day

    Obviously... still no three days and three nights with Friday crucifixion.

    Thursday - day
    Thursday - night
    Friday - day
    Friday - night
    Saturday - day
    Saturday - night
    Sunday - day

    That makes four days and three nights.. is that why you threw in the 1/2?
     
  3. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Now it is "three nights and three days" because it fits your scheme better? o_O
    Are you going to prove it is incorrect in Jonah 1:17 also? :D
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  4. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    What gets confusing is using Roman day names instead of 5th, 6th, 7th and 1st day. Let's use for example Nisan 14 occurring on the 5th day in 27 AD/CE. The Jewish 5th day is from sunset on the Roman western day Wednesday to sunset on Thursday. Check it out at ... http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y27M1

    A year ago i thought you agreed that Yeshua was more likely crucified in 27 AD/CE assuming that Herod the Great died in 4 BCE as most agree. The implication being that "ImmanuEl" was born at least 2+ years before Herod's death. Those that think Herod the Great died in 1 BCE do so to justify their belief that Yeshua was crucified on a Friday (Nisan 14) in 30 AD.

    We can't reckon days according to our western calendar (Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday). That's one reason why a "Good Friday" scenario is bogus. Likewise, it's very possible that the correct reading of Jonah 1:17 as well as the correct translation of Matthew 12:40 should be "three nights and three days."
     
  5. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    I'm left handed and right handed so trying to prove something isn't easy. That said i do tend to favor the right-side of my brain. That means reading from right to left is kosher or is it the other way around ?? ;)
     
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    One thing is for sure.. we all agree that First Fruits was Saturday night - Sunday.. We also agree the women came to the tomb to anoint the body of Yeshua that morning. The stone had been removed, the seal had been broken, and the body was gone. They find out that He has arisen.

    Luke 24:5 Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen.

    They went back to tell the other disciples, who at first did not believe their report.

    Luke 24:11 And these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them.

    However, they were persuaded to look for themselves, and they also found the tomb empty. This caused some serious confusion. The confusion vanished, of course, when the resurrected Yeshua finally appeared to the disciples.

    After being with the disciples for forty days, Yeshua ascended into heaven. Ten days later, at Pentecost, the disciples publicly proclaimed to all Jerusalem, and to the world, the fact that Yeshua had risen from the dead.
     
  8. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    4th day = Tuesday sunset to Wednesday sunset ( 6 hrs remaining of Tuesday | 18 hrs into Wednesday )
    5th day = Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset ( 6 hrs remaining of Wednesday | 18 hrs into Thursday )
    6th day = Thursday sunset to Friday sunset ( 6 hrs remaining of Thursday | 18 hrs into Friday )
    7th day = Friday sunset to Saturday sunset ( 6 hrs remaining of Friday | 18 hrs into Saturday )
    1st day = Satiurday sunset to Sunday sunset ( 6 hrs remaining of Saturday | 18 hrs into Sunday )

    "We also agree the women came to the tomb to anoint the body of Yeshua that morning."
    That would mean you believe they arrived at the tomb at the beginning of a new Hebrew/Jewish 12 hr day. Thought you believed the women came while it was still dark which is considered part of the Hebrew/Jewish 12 hr nighttime. A Hebrew/Jewish morning doesn't begin until sunrise which would be the beginning of 12 hrs of daylight from say, 6am to 6pm. The reason some refer to the 5th day as Thursday is because the fifth day only includes 6 hrs remaining of Wednesday, but 18 hrs into Thursday. Wouldn't you agree that the 5th day is more reasonable (no more then 4 nights) as compared to the 4th day (no more then 5 nights).
    4th day = 12 hrs nighttime and 12 hrs daytime = Tuesday sunset to Wednesday sunset
    5th day = 12 hrs nighttime and 12 hrs daytime = Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset

    6th day = 12 hrs nighttime and 12 hrs daytime = Thursday sunset to Friday sunset
    7th day = 12 hrs nighttime and 12 hrs daytime = Friday sunset to Saturday sunset
    1st day = 12 hrs nighttime (Mary comes to the tomb)

    Five Nights and Four Days
    Do you still believe Nisan 14 occurred on the 4th day ( Tuesday sunset to Wednesday sunset ( 6 hrs remaining of Tuesday | 18 hrs into Wednesday ) ... https://www.hebcal.com/converter/?gd=3&gm=4&gy=30&g2h=1
    Wed, 3 April 0030 = 14th of Nisan 3790

     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
  9. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Funny thing is that this is yet another dilemma you have, which I do not, and yet another reason why those things I have been trying to tell you are more likely true than anything else you can dream up. Will you change the words of both Messiah and Yonah to make them fit your own mindset? Neither Jonah 1:17 nor Matthew 12:40 say what you now suggest they say but it appears you have decided that they would fit your understanding better if the words were reversed in both Hebrew and Greek. Yeshua says three days and three nights because Yonah says the same and they both mean what they say in the order that they say it. You do have a dilemma though because you seem to have now realized that your understanding necessarily begins with night and not with day, and thus, you are left out to dry with three nights and three days even if you do find a way to make every other dilemma fit your prerequisites. In the understanding I have tried to explain this is not the case because Yeshua was arrested late at night, so late that his talmidim could not even stay awake any longer and fell asleep because their eyes were too heavy. When all is said and done in that night Yeshua stands before Ananus just before the morning dawn. Annas wants to know about only two things: his talmidim and his doctrine. The Master tells him nothing of his beloved but concerning his doctrine he says:

    John 18:19-24
    19 The high priest then asked Yeshua of his disciples and of his doctrine.
    20 Yeshua answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
    21 Why ask you me? ask them which heard me, what I have said to them: behold, they know what I said.
    22 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Yeshua with the palm of his hand, saying, You answer the high priest so?
    23 Yeshua answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smite you me?
    24 Annas then sent him bound unto Kaiaphas the high priest.


    Essentially Yeshua says to Ananus, "Call your witnesses", (and take it to trial) because he already knew they would not be able to find even two credible witnesses that would agree, because if they did, then Yeshua would not be crucified but rather stoned for the initial charge of having been a mesith, (which charges changed when Kaiaphas rent his garment and utterly disqualified himself). Therefore when Yeshua says these things Ananus then binds him over to stand trial before Kaiaphas and the twenty-three member criminal court of the Sanhedrin. Yeshua therefore begins three full days and three full nights in the Sanhedrin underground dungeon cistern-pit at the morning dawn of seventeen Abib. :)
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  10. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    How are we suppose to know when you don't have your tongue-in-your-cheek? (need to give Alex a head's up). You're not suppose to use Abib unless you are referring to the barley harvest to determine whether there's going to be an extra month (Aviv/Adar 2). http://abibofgod.com/6.html
     
  11. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Not easy to know when your tongue is in your check or when you're being sarcastic. So in order too hopefully appease you will post the following for any MJ (not you or me) that would like to believe that Yeshua arose sometime during the 7th day Sabbath. Yes, Virginia some MJs are so turned off by Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Easter Eggs, Easter Bunny, etc etc that they disregard certain scriptures that are hard to ignore.

    The Hebrew Word "EmmanuEl" is translated as "G-d with us" furthermore Jonah 1:17 reads from right to left in Hebrew.
    Jonah 1:17 (Hebrew is read from right to left ... "nights three and days three" )
    וַיְ הִ י u·iei and·he-is-becoming ינָה iune Jonah בִּ מְ עֵ י b·moi in·bowels-of הַ דָּ ג e·dg the·fish שְׁ 1שָׁ ה shlshe three יָמִ ים imim days וּשְׁ 1שָׁ ה u·shlshe and three לֵ ילת liluth nights

    The following timeline interpretation of: "after three days (after Yeshua was in tomb) He had to rise again" and "on the third day (of Unleavened Bread) He will rise again" and "three nights and three days" can be satisfied with a 7th Day resurrection.

    However, any proponents of a 7th Day resurrection have a problem with the following Gospel accounts ...
    Matthew 28:1 CJB
    After Shabbat, as the next day was dawning, Miryam of Magdala and the other Miryam went to see the grave.
    Mark 16:1 CJB
    When Shabbat was over, Miryam of Magdala, Miryam the mother of Ya‘akov, and Shlomit bought spices in order to go and anoint Yeshua.
    Luke 24:1 CJB
    but the next day, while it was still very early, they took the spices they had prepared, went to the tomb,
    John 20:1 CJB
    Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Miryam from Magdala went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb.

    However, for any MJs that may consider that "three days and three nights" should have been translated as "three nights and three days" such transposing is relevant in satisfying the following timeline ...

    Nisan 14 occurred on a Wednesday in *24 CE (Hebcal in 27 AD and 30 AD)
    *(according to the Torah Creation Calendar based on NASA calculations)

    4th Day from Tuesday 6pm to Wednesday 6pm = 24 hr Day
    Nisan 14 also known as the Day Of Preparation by some MJs
    Nighttime = 12 hrs
    Daylight = 12 hrs (Yeshua dies 3-4 hours before sunset)

    5th Day from Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm = 24 hr Day
    Nisan 15 is the First Day of Unleavened Bread
    Nighttime = 12 hrs is considered Night One
    Daylighbt = 12 hrs is considered Day One

    6th Day
    from Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm = 24 hr Day
    Nisan 16 is the Second Day of Unleavened Bread
    Nighttime = 12 hrs is considered Night Two
    Daylight = 12 hrs is considered Day Two

    7th Day
    from Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm = 24 hr Day
    Nisan 17 is the Third Day of Unleavened Bread
    Nighttime = 12 hrs is considered Night Three
    Daylight = 12 hrs is considered Day Three

    1st Day
    from Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm
    Nisan 18 the Fourth Day of Unleavened Bread
    +11 hrs into the nighttime when Mary headed to the tomb
    up to dawn is considered Night Four (3 1/2 days)​

    Although, "three nights and three days" can be used to satisfy Nisan 14 occurring on a Thursday in 27 CE, it can NOT satisfy a Good Friday scenario any more than can "three days and three nights" (which seems to be ignored).
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
  12. SistrNChrist

    SistrNChrist Newbie

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    That's the same thought I have regarding the three days/three nights scenario. While to the Greeks, their days were literal 24 hour periods, a Hebrew day lasts from sundown to sundown, and can often vary depending on when the moon rises or when it gets dark outside, which is why even now, their holidays never have a fixed date like the Western ones do. It is entirely possible, and most likely the correct scenario, that what the Greeks interpreted as three 24 hour days were really three Hebrew days that ended whenever the sun went down/the moon was spotted in the sky, therefore creating what seems to be a contradiction, but really means the same thing.
     
  13. sahjimira

    sahjimira God of miracles.. He saved ME!

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    Oh boy I confused. I guess I'm stuck on modern day/night and have a hard time converting the two ( Jewish nights being the beginning of the day). In those terms did Jesus getting crucified on a Wednesday and that being considered a day contributing to the time in the tomb? I hope someone can make sense of this post because I think I confused myself even more
     
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Again, the sign was not some exact time period. Who would believe in anything if they said they would be dead for a certain period of time...nobody. However if they were to be alive again, that WOULD be a sign! The resurrection was the sign. Jonah went to the Ninevites and they repented. Yeshua said that the Ninevites would judge the unbelieving generation He was speaking to. Jonah said that "forty days, and Nineveh shall be destroyed" and Jerusalem was destroyed 40 years after Yeshua died and rose. In Luke 11 it says "...just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so shall the Son of Man be to this generation." The SIGN was not that Jonah got swallowed by the whale or that Yeshua died...it is that God raised both up...ALIVE!
     
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    And it can't be both...??
     
  17. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Why would it need to be? They would believe because he was dead exactly 72 hrs or 24 hrs or ???
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    1.jpg
     
  19. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    As I said multiple times, it does NOT need to be 72 hrs. You all are taking what was said out of context! It also said in 3 days. on the 3rd day, after 3 days...
     
  20. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Hi Soyeong, it is a nice image file but do you see the point which I tried to make to AbbaLove previously above? The image file you posted clearly shows three nights and three days, not three days and three nights. How is it that everyone desires to be so absolute and precise with everything else stated concerning this matter but then completely ignore the fact that there is no way to make the count start at daytime because of when Yeshua died? (that is, if one is counting full days and full nights). :)
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