Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

henceforth being the operative word... the 16th falls on all days of the week, each year different.

yet THAT 16th WAS on the 1st day of the week

 

[AFrazier]

Ok.. Just for sake of continuity with the historical position on this matter, then how did "Christianity" nailed the resurrection [First Fruits] to Sunday hence forth?

Resurrection, First Fruits, and Sunday aren't synonymous terms. One can celebrate the resurrection without celebrating first fruits. It is an event worthy of its own celebration, regardless of any correlation it might have to an existing feast. They started recognizing Sunday as the Lord's day because he rose early on the first day of the week (Mark 16:9). Although it is only implied that it was the first day of the week in most instances, Mark 16:9 is explicit that Jesus rose early on the first of the week.

 

[AFrazier]

henceforth being the operative word... the 16th falls on all days of the week, each year different.

Relative to my other post, the Eastern church celebrated with the passover. The western church changed the celebration of Easter to follow the original Friday through Sunday, and to separate itself from its Jewish roots. This was a huge point of dispute between the two major groups of the church.

But it's worth noting that they were not changing the first fruits celebration. I don't think the first fruits was even on their mind when this issue came up. They were changing the death and resurrection celebration so it matched the days of the week in which it actually happened.

Thus, it doesn't much matter if first fruits ended up on different days, because they weren't trying to synchronize with it.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Relative to my other post, the Eastern church celebrated with the passover.

They were changing the death and resurrection celebration so it matched the days of the week in which it actually happened.

Probably why we still to this day call it "Pascha"

 

[AbbaLove]

Ok.. Just for sake of continuity with the historical position on this matter, then how did "Christianity" nailed the resurrection [First Fruits] to Sunday hence forth?

Because it's been ingrained over one thousand years by the RCC (the so-called Mother Christian Church) to distinguish themselves from the long held Jewish timeline which Yeshua fulfilled. The EOC and RCC can teach their timelines and dates as truth because they've been doing it for hundreds and hundreds of years (well over 1,000 years) ... and now you (Messianic Judaism) are going to teach them (EOC/RCC) that their timeline is wrong ?

Ironically MJ members aren't allowed to teach a Messianic Judaism 4th or 5th Jewish day Crucifixion (3-day) timeline in a Christian forum, but they can teach their shorter Friday(6th day) to Sunday timeline in this Messianic Judaism forum.

Bottomline: Now (as a MJ) you're asking a non-MJ the question(s) so he/they can teach you instead of you teaching them a more likely Messianic Jewish timeline that Yeshua fulfilled. Most likely CF favors the Crucifixion timeline of the so-called Mother church as well as that of Christmas more than the actual birth of Yeshua being in the fall.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

​

Because it's been ingrained over one thousand years by the RCC (the so-called Mother Christian Church) to distinguish themselves from the long held Jewish timeline which Yeshua fulfilled. The EOC and RCC can teach their timelines and dates as truth because they've been doing it for hundreds and hundreds of years (well over 1,000 years) ... and now you're going to persuade them they're wrong ?

Ironically MJ members aren't allowed to teach a Messianic Judaism 4th or 5th Jewish day Crucifixion (3-day) timeline in a Christian forum, but they can teach their shorter Friday to Sunday timeline in this Messianic Judaism forum.

Bottomline: Now (as a MJ) you're asking a non-MJ the question(s) so he/they can teach you instead of you teaching them a more likely Messianic Jewish timeline that Yeshua fulfilled. Most likely CF favors the Crucifixion timeline of the so-called Mother church as well as that of Christmas more than the actual birth of Yeshua being in the fall.

You keep saying "the MJ" this and that, yet in so many situations, there are NO single MJ doctrines, but many. Some MJs are not even Trinitarian. Some do not follow Paul. The 4 day or 5 day timeline is something YOU follow and is not "THE" MJ doctrine. The main objection to my timeline is the 3 day/3 night 72 hr scenario, which I have already explained is not necessary. And my timeline (actually it is the Scriptural timeline) is 3 days within the Jewish context...14th Friday (day of preparation and Pesakh) 15th (that Shabbat was also a "high" day...feast of unleavened) and 16th (Yom HaBikkurim). Death, buried and resurrected.

 

[AFrazier]

​

Because it's been ingrained over one thousand years by the RCC (the so-called Mother Christian Church) to distinguish themselves from the long held Jewish timeline which Yeshua fulfilled. The EOC and RCC can teach their timelines and dates as truth because they've been doing it for hundreds and hundreds of years (well over 1,000 years) ... and now you (Messianic Judaism) are going to teach them (EOC/RCC) that their timeline is wrong ?

Ironically MJ members aren't allowed to teach a Messianic Judaism 4th or 5th Jewish day Crucifixion (3-day) timeline in a Christian forum, but they can teach their shorter Friday(6th day) to Sunday timeline in this Messianic Judaism forum.

Bottomline: Now (as a MJ) you're asking a non-MJ the question(s) so he/they can teach you instead of you teaching them a more likely Messianic Jewish timeline that Yeshua fulfilled. Most likely CF favors the Crucifixion timeline of the so-called Mother church as well as that of Christmas more than the actual birth of Yeshua being in the fall.

Brother, I am not an RCC advocate. My only and sincere interest is in what the scriptures teach, and the chronology as given by the apostles. I teach Friday to Sunday in deference to scripture and documented history, not dogma or RCC sympathies. If you are interested in truth, then engage, and let's discuss the matter at hand. Being Jew or gentile has no bearing on the truth of scripture or the integrity of history.

 

[AFrazier]

Probably why we still to this day call it "Pascha"

Agreed. In fact, the western church called it Paska as well. Dionysius Exiguus' work that led to our modern common calendar is actually titled Liber de Paschate. They still recognized it, even in the sixth century, as the paska. Easter is a word they adopted later, though I've heard various stories on the etymology of the word.

 

[AbbaLove]

You keep saying "the MJ" this and that, yet in so many situations, there are NO single MJ doctrines, but many. Some MJs are not even Trinitarian. Some do not follow Paul. The 4 day or 5 day timeline is something YOU follow and is not "THE" MJ doctrine. The main objection to my timeline is the 3 day/3 night 72 hr scenario, which I have already explained is not necessary.

Is it reasonable to think that a gentile member of the EOC or RCC should turn their back on their religious beliefs any more than Messianic Jews should turn their back on their Hebrew/Jewish beliefs that the "church" in part has denigrated (Ten Commandments).

So non-Jewish feel it's their duty to inform Messianic Jews of the correct interpretation of the timeline of the LORDs Crucifixion and Resurrection. One could easily get the wrong impression that non-Jews think they have a better understanding of scripture than do Messianic Jews.

 

[AbbaLove]

You guys have a lot of nerve to come over here to teach MJs your "church" timeline religious traditions when MJs are considerate enough not to teach their Messianic Judaism Crucifixion and Firstfruits Resurrection timeline on a Christian denominational forum.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You guys have a lot of nerve to come over here to teach MJs your "church" timeline religious traditions when MJs are considerate enough not to teach their Messianic Judaism Crucifixion and Firstfruits Resurrection timeline on a Christian denominational forum.

The 4 or 5 day timeline is NOT an MJ doctrinal timeline as I have said. It is a timeline YOU favor. Some may agree with you while others will not.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

​

Is it reasonable to think that a gentile member of the EOC or RCC should turn their back on their religious beliefs any more than Messianic Jews should turn their back on their Hebrew/Jewish beliefs that the "church" in part has denigrated (Ten Commandments).

So non-Jewish feel it's their duty to inform Messianic Jews of the correct interpretation of the timeline of the LORDs Crucifixion and Resurrection. One could easily get the wrong impression that non-Jews think they have a better understanding of scripture than do Messianic Jews.

If a Messianic Jew is wrong, then they are wrong. If a Gentile Christian is wrong, then they are wrong also. As I have said, stop insinuating that your belief in a 4 day or 5 day (72 hr) timeline is MJ belief. Are you saying I am a gentile EOC? I am a MJ as anyone else here!

 

[AFrazier]

​

Is it reasonable to think that a gentile member of the EOC or RCC should turn their back on their religious beliefs any more than Messianic Jews should turn their back on their Hebrew/Jewish beliefs that the "church" in part has denigrated (Ten Commandments).

So non-Jewish feel it's their duty to inform Messianic Jews of the correct interpretation of the timeline of the LORDs Crucifixion and Resurrection. One could easily get the wrong impression that non-Jews think they have a better understanding of scripture than do Messianic Jews.

I myself am not here to "set Messianic Jews straight." I'm here to discuss scripture and history.

And to hear you talk, one might "get the wrong impression that" you think you have a better understanding of scripture than do gentiles. Let me tell you something ... the one who has the best understanding is the one who studies it, and lets the Holy Spirit guide them in humility.

 

[AFrazier]

@AbbaLove

Do you want to have civilized, intellectual discussion about the week of the crucifixion? Or was this whole thread just a soap box for you to state your opinion?

 

[visionary]

I, too, have present many problems with the friday to sunday, and shown that the wednesday to sunday works better. It looks like a stale mate with both parties needing to go to their perspective corners. Abba and I will be staying here. Bye guys.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I, too, have present many problems with the friday to sunday, and shown that the wednesday to sunday works better. It looks like a stale mate with both parties needing to go to their perspective corners. Abba and I will be staying here. Bye guys.

The problem with Wednesday is of course the testimony of the witnesses on the road to Emmaus. Using that alone completely discounts even the possibility of a Wednesday crucifixion. Thursday would be the earliest possible day IF you use an exclusive counting method. Shalom Vis

 

[AFrazier]

I, too, have present many problems with the friday to sunday, and shown that the wednesday to sunday works better. It looks like a stale mate with both parties needing to go to their perspective corners. Abba and I will be staying here. Bye guys.

It's not a stale mate. Friday to Sunday is correct. Wednesday to Sunday is not. You're refusal to discuss it further doesn't mean that we both have valid arguments, and that we have all chosen to agree to disagree. A Wednesday crucifixion is wrong. A Thursday crucifixion is wrong. A Friday crucifixion is right. Ignoring points of fact that have been presented doesn't change the reality.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Shabbat Shalom everyone! See you on Sunday!

 

[visionary]

It's not a stale mate. Friday to Sunday is correct. Wednesday to Sunday is not. You're refusal to discuss it further doesn't mean that we both have valid arguments, and that we have all chosen to agree to disagree. A Wednesday crucifixion is wrong. A Thursday crucifixion is wrong. A Friday crucifixion is right. Ignoring points of fact that have been presented doesn't change the reality.

See ..no new points brought forward.. and at that point.. discussion is over... Shabbat Shalom

 

[AbbaLove]

See ..no new points brought forward.. and at that point.. discussion is over... Shabbat Shalom

YES, "no new points" to definitely support the EOCs, RCCs and AF's "Good Friday" timeline scenario. As such these advocates are lacking in thorough Messianic Jewish research (due diligence). If AF, the "Thinker", was open to examine other due diligence he would have figured out by now why Visionary's Fourth Jewish 24 hr Day (Wednesday) is more credible as is Tennet's 5th Day (Thursday) Crucifixion (http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TMF_Template-Challenge-1.pdf) than is that of AF's Friday Crucifixion. The "Thinker" claims he's humbly led by the Holy Spirit, but then presents himself (avatar) as a trustworthy "Thinker" (philosopher) like that sculpted by the secular French artist Auguste Rodin as part of a doorway surround commissioned for the 1880 French "The Gates of Hell" exhibit.

​

Just as a reminder to non-MJs that a Jewish 24 hr Day begins at sundown. Not only during the time of Yeshua, but still today the weekly Sabbath is honored by faithful Jews in Jerusalem and around the world and by faithful Messianic non-Jews.

_____________________________________​

THE PROBLEM WITH A FRIDAY CRUCIFIXION​

Sixth Jewish 24 hr Day of a Hebrew Week … 3-4 hours of remaining daylight on a Roman Friday afternoon.
Seventh Jewish 24 hr Sabbath Day of a Hebrew Week … begins at 6 PM on a Roman Friday evening with Yeshua HaMashiach already in tomb. The beginning of the weekly Jewish 7th Day Sabbath beginning with 12 hours of nighttime followed by 12 hours of daytime (Roman Saturday morning).
First Jewish 24 hr Day of a Hebrew Week … begins at 6 PM on a Roman Saturday evening preceding a Roman Sunday morning (12 AM) by 6 hours. The Gospel account implies that Yeshua arose before sunrise on the First Jewish 24 Day of the seven day Jewish week.

NOTE: In the above scenario of a Sixth Day Crucifixion (Friday) only 3-4 hrs of sunlight remain of the 24 hr Sixth Day, then add one complete 12 hr daytime of sunlight on the Seventh Sabbath Day. Only two complete 12 hr nighttimes with AF's Friday scenario. Advocates of a Friday Crucifixion must believe Yeshua arose at or just after sunrise (Sunday morning) in order to barely fulfill even “three" daytimes, but still only “two nighttimes”.

If the Crucifixion was on the Fifth Jewish 24 hr Day (Thursday) we have one partial daytime plus two complete 12 hr daytimes, and three 12 hr nighttimes. This 5th Day scenario seemingly satisfies “three days and three nights” that AF failed to consider as more credible than a Friday Crucifixion.

If the Crucifixion was on the Fourth Jewish 24 hr Day (Visionary’s Wednesday belief) we have one partial daytime (3-4 hrs) plus three complete daytimes (12 hrs +12 hrs +12 hrs) and four nighttimes (12 hrs + 12 hrs + 12 hrs + 12 hrs). So we can see that Visionary’s timeline (14th of Nisan, falling on the 4th Jewish Day of their Week) doesn't seem as credible as does a 5th Day (Thursday) with a 6th Day (Friday) Crucifixion having the least credibility. Both the 4th Day (Wednesday) and 5th Day (Thursday) is supported by the Gospel of Mark where Jesus is quoted as saying, “The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.” (Mark 9:31)

Advocates of a Friday Crucifixion timeline arrive at “three days” figuring 3-4 hours of remaining daylight on the Sixth Jewish 24 hr Day as the first day, then 12 hours of daylght on the Seventh Jewish 24 hr Day as the second day, and a few minutes of daylight on the First Jewish 24 hr Day as the third day. Apparently they believe Yeshua arose at or after sunrise (12+ hours into the First Jewish 24 hr Day) so they could barely justify “three days", but only two nights have transpired (Matthew 12:40).

Many Friday advocates will still buy into whatever the mother church has perpetuated for centuries, even if it isn’t supported by scripture (Matthew 12:40, Mark 9:31, John 2:19). Hopefully, the above due diligence will further encourage Visionary's belief and that of other Messianics that Yeshua HaMashiach’s Crucifixion occurred on the Fourth Jewish 24 hr Day (Wednesday). Visionary's timeline and that of other Messianics is certainly more credible than those that mistakenly believe Jesus’ Crucifixion (Pesach, 14 Nisan) was on a Friday.