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Matthew 1:1
- Thread starter Timothew
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I like to line the phrases out sometimes, to show where the boundaries are between phrases, and if I'm translating, I'll translate each phrase:
ιακωβ δε εγεννησεν τον ιωσηφ
τον ανδρα μαριας
εξ ης εγεννηθη ιησους
ο λεγομενος χριστος
The English implies that Jesus was born of Mary's husband, which isn't what the Greek says. τον ανδρα μαριας, εξ ης εγεννηθη ιησους - the husband of Mary, who bore Jesus, who is called Christ.
In general, it's best to translate the meaning of a phrase rather than the meaning of each individual word separately, and don't worry to much about keeping the Greek word order within a phrase. Words often have no equivalent, and the logic of word order in Greek is pretty different from the logic of word order in English, so keeping the word order when you translate can change the meaning sometimes.
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That's a good point. The first translation is woodenly literal, the 2nd one can be more 'interpretive.'
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Your comments are really good, I'll take what ever you offer. I don't mind reviewing what I did before, in fact I review ALOT, in order to try to keep the words in the sheepfold. The words continually wander off.
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- May 19, 2015
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Not sure if this was mentioned or not but the greek word used for "generation" in Matthew 1:1 is the same one used in Genesis from the LXX concerning the "heavens and land" and the "Adam". 
Genesis 5:1 This scroll of generations/#08435 towl@dah/#1078 genesewv of 'Adam, in day of 'Elohiym to create, in likeness of 'Elohiym He made him.
[Luke 3:38]
08435 towl@dah {to-led-aw'} or tol@dah {to-led-aw'} from 03205; TWOT - 867g; n f pl
AV - generations 38, birth 1; 39
1) descendants, results, proceedings, generations, genealogies 1a) account of men and their descendants 1a1) genealogical list of one's descendants 1a2)
Matthew 1:1 Scroll of generation/genesewV <1078> of Jesus Christ, Son of David Son of Abraham
1078 genesis {ghen'-es-is} from the same as 1074; TDNT - 1:682,117; n f
AV - generation 1, natural 1, nature 1; 3
1) source, origin 1a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated 2) used of birth, nativity 3) of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life
Luke 3:38 Of the Enosh, of the Seth, of the Adam, of the God.
[Genesis 5:1]
Genesis 5:1 This scroll of generations/#08435 towl@dah/#1078 genesewv of 'Adam, in day of 'Elohiym to create, in likeness of 'Elohiym He made him.
[Luke 3:38]
08435 towl@dah {to-led-aw'} or tol@dah {to-led-aw'} from 03205; TWOT - 867g; n f pl
AV - generations 38, birth 1; 39
1) descendants, results, proceedings, generations, genealogies 1a) account of men and their descendants 1a1) genealogical list of one's descendants 1a2)
Matthew 1:1 Scroll of generation/genesewV <1078> of Jesus Christ, Son of David Son of Abraham
1078 genesis {ghen'-es-is} from the same as 1074; TDNT - 1:682,117; n f
AV - generation 1, natural 1, nature 1; 3
1) source, origin 1a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated 2) used of birth, nativity 3) of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life
Luke 3:38 Of the Enosh, of the Seth, of the Adam, of the God.
[Genesis 5:1]
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If I were you, I would skip the "woodenly literal" step, reading a language is about learning to recognize the structure of the phrases, and interpreting within this structure. And there's no such thing as a literal translation of some individual words, e.g. "de", or "the joseph" are things that make little sense to translate at all.
So personally, I'd start with the Greek like this:
ιακωβ δε εγεννησεν τον ιωσηφ
τον ανδρα μαριας
εξ ης εγεννηθη ιησους
ο λεγομενος χριστος
Then I'd add the phrase by phrase translation:
Now Jacob fathered Joseph,
the husband of Mary,
from whom was born Jesus
who is called Christ
You don't really know how to translate many of these pieces until you know the phrases you are translating into. And it's important to learn to think in phrases if you want to really grasp a language.
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του is genitive here, "now of the Birth of Jesus Christ, it was like this ....", or "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was like this..."
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἡ γένεσις οὕτως ἦν.
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was like this
μνηστευθείσης τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ Μαρίας τῷ Ἰωσήφ,
While his mother Mary was engaged to Joseph
πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς
Before they came together
εὑρέθη ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου.
Let's break this down piece by piece:
εὑρέθη - aorist passive, "she was found", idiomatically, may mean "she became"
ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα - literally "having in her belly", idiomatically, pregnant. Quite the euphemism!
ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου - by the Holy Spirit
Perhaps:
"She was found to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit"
or "She became pregnant by the Holy Spirit"
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The rules I had set for myself in the beginning of this 'assignment' were:
1. Find the one best word in english that represents the greek word.
2. Write those down, (the 'wooden' translation)
3. Rewrite the verse using only the words in the wooden translation. Any supporting words have to be in brackets.
I've abandoned those rules in my later posts, but I've kept the wooden translation, since it may be helpful to "see the framework, before the plaster is put on the walls."
We are so fortunate to have so many great translations in english, done by experts. This is not one of them! But I think this is valuable to me.
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ισθι ευνοων τω αντιδικω σου ταχυ
εως οτου ει εν τη οδω μετ αυτου
μηποτε σε παραδω ο αντιδικος τω κριτη
και ο κριτης σε παραδω τω υπηρετη
και εις φυλακην βληθηση
become well-minded the opponent your quickly
even while are in the road with him
not-ever you deliver the opponent the judge
and the judge you deliver the bailiff
and into prison throw
Become reconciled with your opponent quickly,
even while you are in the road with him,
lest your opponent deliver you to the judge,
and the judge deliver you to the baliff,
and you would be thrown into prison.
ὑπηρέτῃ: minister, officer, servant.
From hupo and a derivative of eresso (to row); an under-oarsman, i.e. (generally) subordinate (assistant, sexton, constable) -- minister, officer, servant.
(Strong's)
I put "baliff" because I felt that a judge's subordinate would be a baliff.
εως οτου ει εν τη οδω μετ αυτου
μηποτε σε παραδω ο αντιδικος τω κριτη
και ο κριτης σε παραδω τω υπηρετη
και εις φυλακην βληθηση
become well-minded the opponent your quickly
even while are in the road with him
not-ever you deliver the opponent the judge
and the judge you deliver the bailiff
and into prison throw
Become reconciled with your opponent quickly,
even while you are in the road with him,
lest your opponent deliver you to the judge,
and the judge deliver you to the baliff,
and you would be thrown into prison.
ὑπηρέτῃ: minister, officer, servant.
From hupo and a derivative of eresso (to row); an under-oarsman, i.e. (generally) subordinate (assistant, sexton, constable) -- minister, officer, servant.
(Strong's)
I put "baliff" because I felt that a judge's subordinate would be a baliff.
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ugh, grammar.
OK, I guess the beginning is the time to get it right.
I see βληθηση is future tense; I put 'would be thrown' to indicate this, and because this won't happen, if we become reconciled to our accuser.
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αμην λεγω σοι
ου μη εξελθης εκειθεν
εως αν αποδως τον εσχατον κοδραντην
Amen I-tell you
this-one not come-out of-there
until would pay-back the last quadrans
Amen, I tell you,
you will not come out of there
until you have paid back the very last quarter.
ἔσχατον: end, last, uttermost.
A superlative probably from echo (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time) -- ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
κοδράντην: farthing.
Of Latin origin; a quadrans, i.e. The fourth part of an as -- farthing.
(Strong's)
I put "quarter" since it is the fourth part of a dollar. I could have put "penny" since it is the smallest coin.
ου μη εξελθης εκειθεν
εως αν αποδως τον εσχατον κοδραντην
Amen I-tell you
this-one not come-out of-there
until would pay-back the last quadrans
Amen, I tell you,
you will not come out of there
until you have paid back the very last quarter.
ἔσχατον: end, last, uttermost.
A superlative probably from echo (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time) -- ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
κοδράντην: farthing.
Of Latin origin; a quadrans, i.e. The fourth part of an as -- farthing.
(Strong's)
I put "quarter" since it is the fourth part of a dollar. I could have put "penny" since it is the smallest coin.
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ηκουσατε οτι ερρεθη ου μοιχευσεις
heard that said no adultery
You all have heard that it is said, "do not commit adultery,"
The Textus Receptus includes the words "τοῖς ἀρχαίοις," just like in verse 21.
heard that said no adultery
You all have heard that it is said, "do not commit adultery,"
The Textus Receptus includes the words "τοῖς ἀρχαίοις," just like in verse 21.
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I like the "I-tell" form here, it tells you that the verb is first person ("I") and present ("tell"). Thats' much more literal than just saying "tell", because it contains the same information as the original word.
Perhaps doing that for other verbs in your initial "wooden translation" would be good, it would force you to actually see what the verb forms mean as you go. How's this:
Here's how I did εξελθης:
εξελθης => he-would-come-out
- second person singular = "he"
- aorist active subjunctive: the aorist is harder to translate woodenly, but at least use "would" to indicate the subjunctive
I assume you have Robinson's parse codes for the verbs?
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Your second translation is actually more literal than your first, because it takes the grammar into account.
How about something like this:
you-all-have-heard that it-is-said (passive aorist)
don't you-will-be-unfaithful (it's all in the one word)
I think this makes the "woodenly literal" translation much more woodenly literal, because you're not losing as much of the information contained in the Greek verbs this way.
I think the Greek verb μοιχευω is closely related to faithfulness, and there's no verb "commit" in here, so I think "be-unfaithful" is very literal here.
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I don't have Robinson's Parse Codes, I have the information biblos.com helpfully puts in, for μοιχεύσεις it has- Verb: Second Person Future Active Indicative Singular
Then another click brings me to the Strong's greek dictionary definition of the root word. That's why I said on another thread "Strong's is more convenient for me, but it is what it is."
I've heard people say, "I like this translation better than that translation, because this one is literal and that one is a paraphrase," ie KJV is better than NIV for this reason. I don't agree with them, for the reasons you just said, the "paraphrase" shows the meaning better.
Thanks for your help, It good for me that you are taking the time to tutor me. I have a business trip in Chicago so I will be away from CF and Matthew until thursday.
Then another click brings me to the Strong's greek dictionary definition of the root word. That's why I said on another thread "Strong's is more convenient for me, but it is what it is."
I've heard people say, "I like this translation better than that translation, because this one is literal and that one is a paraphrase," ie KJV is better than NIV for this reason. I don't agree with them, for the reasons you just said, the "paraphrase" shows the meaning better.
Thanks for your help, It good for me that you are taking the time to tutor me. I have a business trip in Chicago so I will be away from CF and Matthew until thursday.
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εγω δε λεγω υμιν
οτι πας ο βλεπων γυναικα
προς το επιθυμησαι αυτην
ηδη εμοιχευσεν αυτην
εν τη καρδια αυτου
I but I-tell you-all
that all the-ones looking-at a-woman
to passionately-desire her
have-already been-unfaithful-with her
in the heart his
but I am telling you
that everyone looking at a woman
in order to passionately desire her
has already been unfaithful with her
in his heart.
ἐπιθυμῆσαι, ἐπιθυμέω:
covet, desire, lust after.
From epi and thumos; to set the heart upon, i.e. Long for (rightfully or otherwise) -- covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).
θυμός: fierceness, indignation, wrath.
From thuo; passion (as if breathing hard) -- fierceness, indignation, wrath.
γυναῖκα, γυνή: wife, woman.
Probably from the base of ginomai; a woman; specially, a wife -- wife, woman
so a possibility is:
that everyone looking at another man's wife. . .
οτι πας ο βλεπων γυναικα
προς το επιθυμησαι αυτην
ηδη εμοιχευσεν αυτην
εν τη καρδια αυτου
I but I-tell you-all
that all the-ones looking-at a-woman
to passionately-desire her
have-already been-unfaithful-with her
in the heart his
but I am telling you
that everyone looking at a woman
in order to passionately desire her
has already been unfaithful with her
in his heart.
ἐπιθυμῆσαι, ἐπιθυμέω:
covet, desire, lust after.
From epi and thumos; to set the heart upon, i.e. Long for (rightfully or otherwise) -- covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).
θυμός: fierceness, indignation, wrath.
From thuo; passion (as if breathing hard) -- fierceness, indignation, wrath.
γυναῖκα, γυνή: wife, woman.
Probably from the base of ginomai; a woman; specially, a wife -- wife, woman
so a possibility is:
that everyone looking at another man's wife. . .
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ει δε ο οφθαλμος σου ο δεξιος σκανδαλιζει σε
εξελε αυτον και βαλε απο σου
συμφερει γαρ σοι ινα αποληται εν των μελων σου
και μη ολον το σωμα σου βληθη εις γεενναν
if and the eye your the right traps you
pluck it and throw from you
better for you that destroy one the parts your
and not whole the body your be-thrown into ge'ennan
And if your right eye traps you
pluck it out and throw it from you,
it's better for you that one of your parts is destroyed
and not have your whole body be thrown into Gehenna.
σκανδαλίζει, σκανδαλίζω: to cause to stumble
From skandalon; to entrap, i.e. Trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure) -- (make to) offend.
(Strong's)
εξελε αυτον και βαλε απο σου
συμφερει γαρ σοι ινα αποληται εν των μελων σου
και μη ολον το σωμα σου βληθη εις γεενναν
if and the eye your the right traps you
pluck it and throw from you
better for you that destroy one the parts your
and not whole the body your be-thrown into ge'ennan
And if your right eye traps you
pluck it out and throw it from you,
it's better for you that one of your parts is destroyed
and not have your whole body be thrown into Gehenna.
σκανδαλίζει, σκανδαλίζω: to cause to stumble
From skandalon; to entrap, i.e. Trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure) -- (make to) offend.
(Strong's)
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