Masturbation as a Sin (A Different Approach)

[Tetra]

It is possible someone has a yearning for their spouse when they are absent, but in terms of pleasure one is focused more on one's own pleasure in masturbation. Fantasy is a dissociative state, though we all fleetingly slip into and out of fantasy states, it can if indulged in become compulsive. A fantasy spouse, even if based on a real spouse always acts according to our wishes, unlike a real spouse.

Interesting perspective, just so were clear then, you'd maintain if a spouse passes away, the remaining spouse should not touch thinking about the loved one and their past, that's a sin?

 

[Tetra]

No you are not.

You just implied a husband and wife are literally one being:

A man and wife are of one flesh - how people look lustfully on themselves?

I fail to see the difference. If lusting after my wife is lusting after myself, having sex with my wife is having sex with myself. Explain the logic here.

 

[dreadnought]

You just implied a husband and wife are literally one being:


I fail to see the difference. If lusting after my wife is lusting after myself, having sex with my wife is having sex with myself. Explain the logic here.

The Lord taught us to be sexually chaste. He allows a husband and wife to have sexual relations. Don't push the boundaries.

 

[Tetra]

The Lord taught us to be sexually chaste. He allows a husband and wife to have sexual relations. Don't push the boundaries.

I don't understand what boundaries are being pushed. How is mutual masturbation not having sexual relations with your spouse?

 

[Sir Robbins]

A fantasy spouse, even if based on a real spouse always acts according to our wishes, unlike a real spouse.

I know women who act according to their husband's every wish. They are real spouses too.

 

[Tetra]

I know women who act according to their husband's every wish. They are real spouses too.

Even my spouse in my fantasies makes me do the dishes.

 

[Sir Robbins]

Even my spouse in my fantasies makes me do the dishes.

I use paper plates, plastic cups and utensils. I just throw everything away lol no dishes for me, even being single...

 

[dms1972]

Interesting perspective, just so were clear then, you'd maintain if a spouse passes away, the remaining spouse should not touch thinking about the loved one and their past, that's a sin?

It might be a self-comforting activity, but it becomes sinful when it takes the place of finding comfort in God and His Word, and when we live in the past. Thanks to this thread I feel I need to make a renewed effort to train my mind to be more present to what's going on around me, because it would be easy to drift off into fantasies.

 

[Tetra]

It might be a self-comforting activity, but it becomes sinful when it takes the place of finding comfort in God and His Word, and when we live in the past. Thanks to this thread I feel I need to make a renewed effort to train my mind to be more present to what's going on around me, because it would be easy to drift off into fantasies.

My goal isn't to convince anyone, I just like dialog in a logical way, and hopefully make people think a bit differently about things. If this thread has caused you to be more resolved in your opinion, rock on brother.

 

[Anguspure]

So does that include the OP's point #2 - a married couple doing the big M together? Or one spouse holding and caressing the other while they take care of business?

If it's within the context of the relationship then it is not a solo undertaking. It is the solitary nature that adulterates.

 

[Tetra]

If it's within the context of the relationship then it is not a solo undertaking. It is the solitary nature that adulterates.

So it would be your view that not all masturbation is a sin, only some types then?

 

[AlexDTX]

No idea. As far as I know He didn't even have sex.

No one knows, but my guess is no.

 

[Tetra]

No one knows, but my guess is no.

Mine too.

 

[AlexDTX]

And there is the question: Can God make a rock so big that He Himself cannot lift it.

The assumption behind the question is this: We start from the premise that masturbation is sinful. Since it is said in scripture that He never sinned, then He could not have possibly done that.

I challenge the premise. If it is NOT sinful, then it certainly is possible He did that. The truth is, we have no clue one way or the other.

We can know by the Spirit. It is sin.

 

[Tetra]

We can know by the Spirit. It is sin.

How do we know by the Spirit that it is a sin?

 

[AlexDTX]

How do we know by the Spirit that it is a sin?

Hardness of heart certainly affects all as we live in this fallen world. Our conscience can be seared. The more you indulge the harder your heart becomes, increasing insensitivity to the Spirit. Scriptures list sensuality, lasciviousness, lust as sin. Masturbation involves all those things. You brought up lusting for your wife as OK. No it is not. Lust is not natural it is the natural magnified by imagination. It is a wrong use of imagination. When you imagine, or view pictures of your wife, to touch to, you objectify her and strip her of her humanity.

 

[Tetra]

Hardness of heart certainly affects all as we live in this fallen world. Our conscience can be seared. The more you indulge the harder your heart becomes, increasing insensitivity to the Spirit.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this.

Scriptures list sensuality, lasciviousness, lust as sin.

Can you provide the Scripture you're referring to and define "lust" in this context please?

Masturbation involves all those things.

Certainly masturbation CAN involve those things.

You brought up lusting for your wife as OK. No it is not. Lust is not natural it is the natural magnified by imagination. It is a wrong use of imagination.

I don't recall saying lusting after your wife is okay. Can you show me where I said that? I could be wrong but don't think I did.

It is a wrong use of imagination. When you imagine, or view pictures of your wife, to touch to, you objectify her and strip her of her humanity.

Why? What is the difference when I look at her in front of me, or in a picture she sent me? I don't see how one time it's objectification, but the next it's not. This doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Tetelestai Paid in Full]

You're not going to offend me.

A very fair question, I really enjoy abstract thought experiments and hearing peoples opinions. Some people on the forum perceive me to be trolling or sometimes rude and honestly, it's not my intent. It's just my personality. When people say, this is the way it is... my knee jerk reaction is to ask why, and think about it. If you look at every thread I've made, it's always been a challenge to a convention or social norm within evangelical western Christendom. I don't know what stock you place in Myers Briggs, but I've done countless tests and my personality always comes out INTP:

"...it’s not that they are dishonest, but people with the INTP personality type tend to share thoughts that are not fully developed, using others as a sounding board for ideas and theories in a debate against themselves rather than as actual conversation partners."
https://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality

I knew when starting this thread like my other threads that there isn't a clear answer, but my personality enjoys the dialogue and thinking things through about it. Some here may think we are going nowhere, but I have actually taken a lot away already, and it has made me think a bit differently on some things. I'm not trying to "gain" anything per se, just a good logical conversation about a hard topic.

Maybe this will tell you something about me, I dunno,

Tetra.

So many things I want too say right now...But alas, off to bed....so I will make it short....
I have NEVER in my life found a more ACCURATE description of who I am, than the Myers Briggs personality test...I have taken the thorough one that costs money, and taken the shorter free one's...And my results always come out VERY CLEARLY....
INTJ - (Introvert - 88% /// Intuitive - 88% /// Thinking 88% /// Judging 50%)
Which describes me to an absolute ---T---
Anyways....SO very glad I did not offend....I was just curious what you were asking for, I myself, not consciously of course, am guilty of seeking an answer that ONLY fit within my predetermined mindset...That is why I brought it up...Alot has changed for me since being born again...Anyway...I had not even intended to come to this particular forum for this reason, I was coming too ask a few Biblical questions that I have, but will have too wait now...I only clicked on this topic because of my recent "BATTLE" with this particular sin, and my research into the topic....Which is very thorough...Thorough is the only way I do things.....I cannot do them any other way....More of that INTJ stuff....But I digress....Anyway....Good chat...Hope we run across each other in other topics....God Bless, and Much Love....

 

[Tetra]

So many things I want too say right now...But alas, off to bed....so I will make it short....
I have NEVER in my life found a more ACCURATE description of who I am, than the Myers Briggs personality test...I have taken the thorough one that costs money, and taken the shorter free one's...And my results always come out VERY CLEARLY....
INTJ - (Introvert - 88% /// Intuitive - 88% /// Thinking 88% /// Judging 50%)
Which describes me to an absolute ---T---
Anyways....SO very glad I did not offend....I was just curious what you were asking for, I myself, not consciously of course, am guilty of seeking an answer that ONLY fit within my predetermined mindset...That is why I brought it up...Alot has changed for me since being born again...Anyway...I had not even intended to come to this particular forum for this reason, I was coming too ask a few Biblical questions that I have, but will have too wait now...I only clicked on this topic because of my recent "BATTLE" with this particular sin, and my research into the topic....Which is very thorough...Thorough is the only way I do things.....I cannot do them any other way....More of that INTJ stuff....But I digress....Anyway....Good chat...Hope we run across each other in other topics....God Bless, and Much Love....

We can talk more in the morning. Just so you know though, I'd certainly encourage you in trying to stop masturbating. As I said in my OP, if this is something someone is convicted by, stand by your convictions!! I hope the battle goes well and God bless brother.

 

[MartyF]

They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.

What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law— justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.