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Mark of the Beast

Taodeching

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Christians cannot possibly accept the mark of the beast and it cannot possibly be contained in the COVID vaccine for several reasons I didn't invent and instead asked several experts

The first part I do not agree with, there is no future mark. Second part I agree with since there is no future mark
 
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Ligurian

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In Daniel 8:26 we see "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future".

Matthew.24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)KJV

9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.LXX
11:31 And seeds shall spring up out of him, and they shall profane the sanctuary of strength, and they shall remove the perpetual sacrifice, and make the abomination desolate.LXX
12:11 And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.LXX

Rev.11:3 And I will give [power] unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.KJV

Esaias 41:23 tell us, declare ye to us the things that are coming on at the last time, and we shall know that ye are gods: do good, and do evil, and we shall wonder, and see at the same time 24 whence ye are, and whence is your works: they have chosen you an abomination out of the earth.LXX
 
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Freedm

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Matthew.24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)KJV

9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.LXX
11:31 And seeds shall spring up out of him, and they shall profane the sanctuary of strength, and they shall remove the perpetual sacrifice, and make the abomination desolate.LXX
12:11 And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.LXX

Rev.11:3 And I will give [power] unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.KJV

Esaias 41:23 tell us, declare ye to us the things that are coming on at the last time, and we shall know that ye are gods: do good, and do evil, and we shall wonder, and see at the same time 24 whence ye are, and whence is your works: they have chosen you an abomination out of the earth.LXX
What's your point exactly?
 
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Freedm

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Could Daniel also be referring to a time in the future long after AD 70? What makes it necessary to have to only apply to AD 70? Could it have been partially fulfilled during the reign of Nero and comes to complete fulfillment in the conceivably yet to occur future tribulation? "Distance future" seems to imply a long time, but not necessarily over 2000 years, but it still opens the door to that interpretation IMHO. It seems to me that preterism hinges nearly entirely on the single word "near" in the Greek New Testament, and what seemed near to an infinite, omniprescent God the Lord Jesus Christ could seem near to him and ten million years to moral man who only lives a 100 years at best.
Preterism certainly does not "hinge nearly entirely on the single word near". Preterism is actually very clearly supported by the book of Revelation. When you realize how symbolic it is, the symbols are very easily applied to past events and it all lines up so beautifully that it can not be ignored. Of course if you read Revelation with the assumption that it's all still future, then it's impossible to see.

As for Daniel's chapter 8 prophesy, it was fulfilled through the events of Antiochus Epiphanes and the Macabees. This again can be very easily verified and clearly demonstrated when you lay the prophesy side by side with actual history. The only part of Daniel's visions that I find somewhat difficult to apply is his vision of the fourth beast. There are a number of possible fulfillments there.
 
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Timtofly

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If you're going to compare historical events to the book of Revelation you have to actually quote the book of Revelation and not just give your own interpretation of it. How can I even know what you're referring to?
There is only one chapter about it. If you claim Revelation was about the first century, should you not be able to map out Revelation onto the first century? You are the one declaring it was fulfilled, not me. When it says they had power and authority for 42 months, did they not have power and authority? Our does your interpretation state something totally different than power and authority?
 
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Timtofly

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Synopsis:
Jesus tells us that He is building His Church, starting with the men given to Him by the Father. At the Mount of Olives, Jesus is talking to the disciples who would soon be told to disciple the Gentiles by telling them to keep Jesus' Commandments. These people are only the Church, which Jesus has built upon the saying of Peter... because Peter proclaims the authority/name of Jesus [Revelation 3:8-10]. And the people who not only hear what Jesus said, but do what Jesus told them to do (Matthew 7:24-25), are the one and only Church of the One Shepherd (John 10:1-30).



Matthew 13:3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, "Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up..."
The questions included: when is your coming and the end. The answers included His second coming and the end. No where in Matthew 24 and 25 does Jesus answer how to start a church and make it a strong church. That question was not asked.
 
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Timtofly

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Timtofly seems to think Revelation was written in chronological order, and probably thinks the same thing about Daniel.

But if Daniel wrote in chronological order, Chapters 1-4 would be followed by Chapters 7-8, followed by Chapter 5, Chapter 9, Chapter 6, and Chapters 10-12... so they say.
Daniel.2:4 through 7:28 are said to be written in Aramaic...
How does a Bear in Aramaic become a Ram in Hebrew?
How did the Leopard in Aramaic become the Goat in Hebrew?
Are Aramaic and Hebrew not very similar?
Why were the Chaldeans speaking Syriac, but Daniel spoke Hebrew?
One would have to point out the order of Revelation not Daniel to show how Revelation is not chronological. I never said anything about Daniel being chronological. Most of Daniel was historically fulfilled before Christ died on the Cross. Not relevant to 70AD either. No 10 empire (Nation) coalition joined Rome at any time in the first century.


Since John never mentioned that all the judgments happened simultaneously, but used the phrase "after that" several times, it would indicate some kind of time line (chronological).

Chronological:

(of a record of events) starting with the earliest and following the order in which they occurred.

Is there any where John said, "But before this happened"?
 
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Timtofly

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The first part I do not agree with, there is no future mark. Second part I agree with since there is no future mark
So John was lying when he claimed people had their heads chopped off instead of receiving the mark? When did the mark stop being an issue, and how do we know we are not marked now and removed from the Lamb's book of life? No one has in the last 1900 years had to choose, so all who have their heads, should be marked and removed from the Lamb's book of life, since then, no? John seems to indicate strongly about the head removal part and being a martyr. How many heads were removed by the Romans? And those killed in battle do not count. This was a normal society decision. We are talking about Roman citizens, not the enemies of Rome.
 
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Freedm

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There is only one chapter about it. If you claim Revelation was about the first century, should you not be able to map out Revelation onto the first century? You are the one declaring it was fulfilled, not me. When it says they had power and authority for 42 months, did they not have power and authority? Our does your interpretation state something totally different than power and authority?
The zealots had power and authority in Jerusalem for 42 months from 66 to 70 AD.
 
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Freedm

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One would have to point out the order of Revelation not Daniel to show how Revelation is not chronological. I never said anything about Daniel being chronological. Most of Daniel was historically fulfilled before Christ died on the Cross. Not relevant to 70AD either. No 10 empire (Nation) coalition joined Rome at any time in the first century.


Since John never mentioned that all the judgments happened simultaneously, but used the phrase "after that" several times, it would indicate some kind of time line (chronological).

Chronological:

(of a record of events) starting with the earliest and following the order in which they occurred.

Is there any where John said, "But before this happened"?
Parts of Revelation are chronological, but not the entire book from start to finish. It's written in a style of writing called progressive parallelism which repeats the same story multiple times, each time in either lesser or greater detail. Ironically, this is done to make the message easier to understand, but we're not used to that in our culture so it actually makes it a bit confusing.

Here are some examples that prove the same stories are being repeated throughout the book.
  • Satan being released from his prison is described three times, in Chapters 9, 11 and 20.
  • God's everlasting kingdom beginning is described twice, in Chapters 11 and 21.
  • The Battle of Armageddon is described three times, in Chapters 16, 19 and 20.
  • God says "It is done" twice, in Chapters 16 and 21.
 
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Freedm

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So John was lying when he claimed people had their heads chopped off instead of receiving the mark? When did the mark stop being an issue, and how do we know we are not marked now and removed from the Lamb's book of life? No one has in the last 1900 years had to choose, so all who have their heads, should be marked and removed from the Lamb's book of life, since then, no? John seems to indicate strongly about the head removal part and being a martyr. How many heads were removed by the Romans? And those killed in battle do not count. This was a normal society decision. We are talking about Roman citizens, not the enemies of Rome.
We don't know how many people were beheaded in those days, but it's possible that this "beheading" is simply symbolic of having been murdered. We do know that John the baptist and James were both beheaded though there were certainly others.

I tend to think that "those who were beheaded" is a euphemism for martyrs, and Jesus himself speaks of the martyrs killed by Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you". Would these not be people who long to be avenged, and for whom God executes vengeance? God's own messengers of love and hope?
 
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BuildingApologetics

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Preterism certainly does not "hinge nearly entirely on the single word near". Preterism is actually very clearly supported by the book of Revelation. When you realize how symbolic it is, the symbols are very easily applied to past events and it all lines up so beautifully that it can not be ignored. Of course if you read Revelation with the assumption that it's all still future, then it's impossible to see.

As for Daniel's chapter 8 prophesy, it was fulfilled through the events of Antiochus Epiphanes and the Macabees. This again can be very easily verified and clearly demonstrated when you lay the prophesy side by side with actual history. The only part of Daniel's visions that I find somewhat difficult to apply is his vision of the fourth beast. There are a number of possible fulfillments there.
Maybe this was answered earlier, but I'm late to the party here:
1) Are you a partial or full pretetist?
2) Which of the following do you consider completely fulfilled: Luke 21, Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15?
 
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Freedm

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Maybe this was answered earlier, but I'm late to the party here:
1) Are you a partial or full pretetist?
2) Which of the following do you consider completely fulfilled: Luke 21, Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15?
I believe we're still in the thousand years and that at the end of the thousand years Satan will be released for a short time to deceive the nations. Sometimes I wonder if we're currently living in that short time, considering the amount of deception that's out there, but if not then I believe this thousand years will likely not last another 20 years, or 30 at most.
 
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Freedm

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No 10 empire (Nation) coalition joined Rome at any time in the first century.
You seem pretty certain that these ten kings represent a ten nation coalition. Have you considered that these ten kings could be simply generals of the same nation? Or perhaps governors or some other such title?
 
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BuildingApologetics

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I believe we're still in the thousand years and that at the end of the thousand years Satan will be released for a short time to deceive the nations. Sometimes I wonder if we're currently living in that short time, considering the amount of deception that's out there, but if not then I believe this thousand years will likely not last another 20 years, or 30 at most.
Actually you and I are in full agreement about the millenium, although I'm more pessemistic about how long we have left. It also sounds like you are more Amillenial like me rather than postmillenial like many preterists.
I am still wondering on which of Luke 21, Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15, you find to be past versus future. To me, the unity of these passages is the biggest reason I have trouble affirming preterism.
 
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Freedm

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Actually you and I are in full agreement about the millenium, although I'm more pessemistic about how long we have left. It also sounds like you are more Amillenial like me rather than postmillenial like many preterists.
I am still wondering on which of Luke 21, Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15, you find to be past versus future. To me, the unity of these passages is the biggest reason I have trouble affirming preterism.
Luke 21 is definitely in the past. When is the last time Jerusalem was compassed with armies? This speaks of the day of judgment of 70 AD. Jesus himself said "these are the days of vengeance", which can be tied to the souls under the altar asking for vengeance. And note that Jesus is speaking of a local event when he says "let them that are in Judea flee to the mountains" which is exactly what happened. All the Christians of Jerusalem fled into the mountains of Pela and thereby were spared the horrors of the time of judgment.

I think most Christians think this is future because they assume that when it speaks of Jesus coming in a cloud, they assume it is literal, but I understand this to be symbolic language of judgment. There are many such examples of God being "enrobed in clouds" when it describes God as being angry and meting out judgment.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Jeremiah 4:13-14
Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Zephaniah 1:15-17
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.

(Matthew 24 is the same)
 
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Timtofly

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Parts of Revelation are chronological, but not the entire book from start to finish. It's written in a style of writing called progressive parallelism which repeats the same story multiple times, each time in either lesser or greater detail. Ironically, this is done to make the message easier to understand, but we're not used to that in our culture so it actually makes it a bit confusing.

Here are some examples that prove the same stories are being repeated throughout the book.
  • Satan being released from his prison is described three times, in Chapters 9, 11 and 20.
  • God's everlasting kingdom beginning is described twice, in Chapters 11 and 21.
  • The Battle of Armageddon is described three times, in Chapters 16, 19 and 20.
  • God says "It is done" twice, in Chapters 16 and 21.
Satan opens the pit, if you are referring to the 5th Trumpet, not released. In 11, Satan kills the 2 witnesses 3.5 days prior to Armageddon. Only after 1000 years later, is Satan released only once in history.

The kingdom beginning is extended 42 months, if the week of the sound of the 7th Trumpet is split in half. If Satan is not allowed 42 months, then the kingdom starts that week. Armageddon only happens if the 42 months happens. Babylon of wickedness is still destroyed that week in the winepress of God's Wrath. The events are still presented in chronological order. Some events should never happen, but they are still prophecied because of the potential for them to happen.
 
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Freedm

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Actually you and I are in full agreement about the millenium, although I'm more pessemistic about how long we have left. It also sounds like you are more Amillenial like me rather than postmillenial like many preterists.
I am still wondering on which of Luke 21, Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15, you find to be past versus future. To me, the unity of these passages is the biggest reason I have trouble affirming preterism.
1 Thess 4 is very interesting and easily misunderstood.

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I believe this was written prior to 70 AD, and I believe this is speaking of the coming of the kingdom in 70 AD. In other words, this is also in our past but speaks to our current reality of never having to experience death.

First we have to understand, that prior to Jesus' victory over death all people who died, literally died. That is they "slept" in the dust of the earth and did not ascend into heaven in spiritual form. People used to actually die, just as the Bible says. "For dust you are and to dust you will return". Every OT saint who died was said to "sleep with his fathers". This is undeniable.

Paul was speaking of these people, those who had died prior to Jesus' victory, when he said "we believe God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him". In other words, "those people will also be resurrected and saved", and that will happen first, and it did. All those people who returned to the dust of the earth in the OT, have now been resurrected and given their spiritual bodies.

Then as for the rest of us we will be suddenly snatched away (harpazo) from the hands of death, into safety. ie. we will become immortal, as we now are.

Jesus said "You will never die. Do you believe this?" That used to boggle my mind because I thought we still have to die before we are resurrected, so why did he say it like that? The reason he said it like that is because it's true. We will never experience death, the way the OT saints did. We will literally move from this life, straight into the next. We will be resurrected into spiritual bodies the moment we die and so in that way we will never experience death. This is what Paul was speaking about when he said "so we will be with the lord forever". When he said "we will be caught up together with them in the clouds" he was using the word "clouds" metaphorically as it is a metaphor for power. We will then have the same power as those who were resurrected from the dust of the earth, that is eternal life.
 
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Freedm

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Satan opens the pit, if you are referring to the 5th Trumpet, not released. In 11, Satan kills the 2 witnesses 3.5 days prior to Armageddon. Only after 1000 years later, is Satan released only once in history.
You're proving my point. Yes, Satan is released only once, but it is mentioned three times. This proves that Revelation repeats itself. It's not simply one long story.
 
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