Mark of the Beast

[Timtofly]

Perhaps that example is not obvious enough. How about "It is done".

Revelation 16:17
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done”.

How do you explain that within the concept of linear story telling?

Is history not linear story telling. Did ww1 end all wars? When the 7th Trumpet stops, it is done.

 

[Freedm]

Is history not linear story telling. Did ww1 end all wars? When the 7th Trumpet stops, it is done.

You're not addressing the point. "It is done" is said twice in the book of Revelation.

You have to either agree that the same story is being repeated, or that two different things are done, or that the same thing is done twice. It has to be one of those three.

 

[Timtofly]

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.

So to continue to believe that the literal earth will be burned up, is to deny the two verses above because how can the earth remain forever, but also pass away? Clearly to take all these verses literally, is misunderstanding.

You are using metaphors literally here. Why not in Revelation?

There will be another earth, so the earth phenomenon is not going to change. Yet if the next reality is even bigger and actually had a universe, that would be different.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not sure what you're accusing me of.

Revelation applies more to the current state of the church, even more than the Israel God forsook at the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

So you don't believe Jesus Christ dealt with Jerusalem in 70 AD? The city and the temple and the Jewish religious practices were wiped out. What more are you expecting?

That was already a done deal on the Cross. Revelation is about the state of affairs at the Second Coming now. Both Israel and the church are a mess now. Forget about the first century. That was 1991 years ago. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead."

 

[Taodeching]

So you are not the church? You just cheer the church on with symbolism?

Your not the whole church and neither is anyone else to think such is to be very prideful. Christians are a part of the Body not the whole. Your going to have to accept that not everyone thinks like you.

Revelations is not now nor ever will be about the future, unlike you some of us look at the context in history.

 

[Freedm]

You are using metaphors literally here. Why not in Revelation?

There will be another earth, so the earth phenomenon is not going to change. Yet if the next reality is even bigger and actually had a universe, that would be different.

You think "the earth remains forever" is a metaphor?

 

[Freedm]

That was already a done deal on the Cross. Revelation is about the state of affairs at the Second Coming now. Both Israel and the church are a mess now. Forget about the first century. That was 1991 years ago. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead."

So you don't think the elimination of the sacrificial temple system was important?

 

[Freedm]

Revelation applies more to the current state of the church, even more than the Israel God forsook at the Cross.

My post was about 2 Thessalonians, now you're talking about Revelation and neither is about "the church" or "the Jews". They're about God's plan for humanity. Either way, it's clear in my eyes that those books prophesied events that have since come to pass because we can look at our history and see that it matches. That's why I believe what I believe. On what basis do you say these events have not come to pass?

 

[Timtofly]

You're not addressing the point. "It is done" is said twice in the book of Revelation.

You have to either agree that the same story is being repeated, or that two different things are done, or that the same thing is done twice. It has to be one of those three.

Or there are two different endings, as in the week of the 7th Trumpet is split in half per Daniel 9:27. Or the week is not split in half and the week is wrapped up in the normal time and not extended for 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

Your not the whole church and neither is anyone else to think such is to be very prideful. Christians are a part of the Body not the whole. Your going to have to accept that not everyone thinks like you.

Revelations is not now nor ever will be about the future, unlike you some of us look at the context in history.

And you base your theology on Josephus. Josephus was not even a part of the church.

 

[Timtofly]

You think "the earth remains forever" is a metaphor?

In those two verses, yes. I accept that in 1000 years there will be a NHNE. A totally different reality. Yet the phenomenon of heaven and earth will keep going forever as God's Word claims. Or until God creates a reality without a heaven and earth.

 

[Taodeching]

And you base your theology on Josephus. Josephus was not even a part of the church.

No, I bae theology on normal thinking and not thinking everything is about now,

 

[Timtofly]

No, I bae theology on normal thinking and not thinking everything is about now,

Well the 1000 year Millennium is one thing that is not now.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The fact that Jesus warned those in Judea to flee to the mountains, proves that he's referring to a local event, not a world wide event. And the fact that he said "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that the end is near" tells us that he was referring not to the end of the world, but the end of something local, or perhaps spiritual. And the fact that Jesus said "some of you standing here will not see death before I come again" proves that he came again in the first century. I'm not sure what "hand waving" needs to occur to understand these things.

As for the worst time in history, you must not have read the Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus. Did you know that tens of thousands of corpses laid unburied and rotting in the streets, and that mothers resorted to eating their own babies?

I don't think that proves preterism. Jerusalem could still flea to the mountains in the 7 years of tribulation. That doesn't offer compelling proof of a reference to AD 70. In fact, most scholars believe John wrote Revelation during the rein of Domitian in AD 95, because it fits history better than John being on Patmos in the rein of Nero. 25 years AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem, so that puts the preterism point of view to bed in one act alone. Also, Jerusalem still exists today, so it did not meet its end in AD 70. Isreael became a nation again in 1948 and is alive and well today. Those who were standing here will not see death before I come again could have been taking about after his resurrection or meeting Paul on the road to Damascus after He ascended to heaven. I did read the wars Josephus and a lot worse has happened to a lot more people, specifically Jews. Millions died by gas chambers in the holocaust, probably thousands of times as many were even alive at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and the Nazis were much crueler than the Romans. Ever see Schinder's List?

When did mountains jump into the ocean? When was Israel destroyed with a flood? When did 100 pound blocks of hail rein down on the earth? When did all this happen worldwide and not just to Israel, as Scripture clearly states by saying 1/4 of the world's inhabitants will die (not 1/4 of Israel) and it also clearly affects every nation, every tongue, every tribe, not just Israel.

Of all the views of Revelaton, I find Preterism to be the LEAST credible and LEAST likely. It hinges on the almost the whole book of Revelation being symbolic, it relies on only a couple of words like "near" in the description of when these things would unfold, and it relies on John being in Patmos at a time that most biblical historians and secular historians think is wrong. Plus many events in Revelation have never occurred before in the history of the planet. And to interpret as such means nothing worse could ever happen again, and worst has certainly happened since AD 70. I know the sacking of Jerusalem was horrible, but trying to suggest that was worst that what the Nazi's did in the holocaust to the Jews (like experimenting on Jewish boys to see how many bullets in the head they could take before they would drop dead and other forms of torture too evil to list here, and what the coming antichrist is going to do in the future, just doesn't make pass mustard. Preterism relies on so many unfounded assumptions that Occam's razor says its the least likely explanation.

Preterism, at least so far, seems to be a "easy way out" type of interpretation. We can pretend all the bad stuff is behind us and that only the final second coming is ahead if we pretend it has already passed. But history speaks otherwise, as does Scripture, and it preterism is built upon far too many questionnable assumptions and interpretations of things as symbolic when inconvenient to the preterist point of view. Sure, a few things fit, but its more like 5% of Revelation, and the other 95% leaves such as gap in the story that it makes preterism seem more like a fantasy of those wishing to get off easy and not have to accept that tribulation and hard times are to come. When did every creature in heaven, on the earth, and under the earth all praise the Lord all at once in AD70 worldwide? All animals, all creatures, all angels? But look where we are now with COVID-19, world-wide hunger, wars and rumors of wars, a recent Hamas attack on Israel, alligators and global warming, the threat of nuclear armageddon on multiple fronts such as China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, and others who aspire to attack and destroy the United States and Israel.

 

[Freedm]

Well the 1000 year Millennium is one thing that is not now.

Or is it?

 

[Freedm]

Ever see Schinder's List?

Schindler's list is not a historical documentary. It's a Hollywood version dramatized for entertainment purposes. I can only assume you knew that, so not sure why you would cite it in your argument.

 

[Freedm]

I don't think that proves preterism. Jerusalem could still flea to the mountains in the 7 years of tribulation. That doesn't offer compelling proof of a reference to AD 70. In fact, most scholars believe John wrote Revelation during the rein of Domitian in AD 95, because it fits history better than John being on Patmos in the rein of Nero.

I've read the arguments for dating Revelation on both sides, and it turns out the arguments for an earlier writing are far more compelling.

 

[Freedm]

When did 100 pound blocks of hail rein down on the earth?

It's not hard to attribute this to the 100 pound stones the Romans hurled into the city in 70 AD.

 

[Freedm]

Of all the views of Revelaton, I find Preterism to be the LEAST credible and LEAST likely. It hinges on the almost the whole book of Revelation being symbolic, it relies on only a couple of words like "near" in the description of when these things would unfold, and it relies on John being in Patmos at a time that most biblical historians and secular historians think is wrong. Plus many events in Revelation have never occurred before in the history of the planet.

Yes, revelation is extremely symbolic. That should be obvious to anyone reading it, and that also negates your argument against preterism, saying that it would require Revelation to be symbolic. That's not an argument if Revelation actually is symbolic, which it is.