Mark of the Beast

[Freedm]

I don't know for sure what it means, but 2030-2033 AD is somehow involved. Whether it is the beginning, mid point, pre-wrath, or post trib rapture, all are possible but it has to be significant in some form or fashion. I did quite a bit of research and came up with the same date.
1) 2000 years after the resurrection of the Lord is 2030-2033 AD.
2) A generation shall not pass - if you add the life expectancy of a modern Israeli living today to the year the UN made Israel a nation again post WW2, you also get 2030-2033 AD.
3) The next solar eclipse visible in Jerusalem (the sun will be dark and the moon will not give off its light or appear blood red) occurs in 2030 AD.

I'm thinking a similar date, but closer to 2027 or 2028. I can't remember off the top of my head how I came up with those dates but perhaps date calculation should be a thread on it's own anyway. I guess the major difference between your date and my date is that you believe the thousand years will soon begin, whereas I believe the thousand years will soon end.

I think I mentioned being in a 5 year bible study group and we have spent the last 3 months in Revelation Chapter 1-5, and this week we covered Daniel because my Bible Knowledge Commentary said we needed to answer 5 questions before we moved to Chapter 6 or Revelation, and one of those 5 questions involved Daniel, so we went thru the major parts of Daniel related to the 4 views (Daniel chapters 2, 7, 9, 11 and 12). Note we are using Steve Gregg's "4 Views of Revelation" that is a parallel commentary that presents like Revelation 5:1-2 then gives each of the 4 views of Preterism, Historicism, Futurism, and Idealism, and every week we find some truth in each of those 4 views.

I like that you're looking at different views.

Our senior most lady in the group who is in her late 70's said when we started this study of Revelation she didn't think the time was near, but after 5 chapters of Revelation and Daniel, she now believes the time is near. Always curious about other faiths, I went to see what those of the Muslim faith were thinking and I found they think the data on earthquakes is conclusive that the end is near. It said something like the same number of earthquakes happened from 1200 AD to 1900 AD, then slightly more from 1900-2000 AD, and now in 2021 there has been an almost equal number of around 300 earthquakes, but the time is getting compressed from 700 years to 100 years to 21 years for the same number of earthquakes.

I've seen similar stats regarding earthquakes but then I wonder how relevant those stats are given that 100 years ago we didn't have a lot of equipment listening for quakes, so I wonder if it's not so much that there are actually more quakes but rather that we're simply recording them more.

I also learned this week that the Catholic bible has 2 books in Daniel that the protestants don't have (Daniel chapters 13 and 14) and that the Jewish bible has Daniel in it but not as a prophet and puts it into what they call "writings" like Psalms.

That's interesting. I'd love to read those other books and chapters.

 

[Chi.C]

Matthew.4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, He departed into Galilee; 13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, [by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew.10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Jeremias.18:1 The word that came from the Lord to 2 Jeremias, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there thou shalt hear my words. 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and behold, he was making a vessel on the stones. 4 And the vessel which he was making with his hands fell: so he made it again another vessel, as it seemed good to him to make it. 5 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 6 Shall I not be able, O house of Israel, to do to you as this potter? behold, as the clay of the potter are ye in my hands.

Esaias 65:8 Thus saith the Lord, As a grape-stone shall be found in the cluster, and they shall say, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for the sake of him that serves me, for his sake I will not destroy them all. 9 And I will lead forth the seed that came of Jacob and of Juda, and they shall inherit My holy mountain: and mine elect and my servants shall inherit it, and shall dwell there. ... 15 For ye shall leave your name for a loathing to My chosen, and the Lord shall destroy you: but My servants shall be called by a new name, 16 which shall be blessed on the earth; for they shall bless the true God: and they that swear upon the earth shall swear by the true God; for they shall forget the former affliction, it shall not come into their mind.

Matthew.4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto Him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Galilee of the Gentiles (4:15). The area known as Galilee was part of the land conquered under the leadership of Joshua, and was given to the tribes of Zebulun and Naphtali. In the 8th century B.C., the land was invaded by the Assyrians, many of the inhabitants were taken into exile, and the region was repopulated with Gentiles.
Galilee of the Gentiles

Israel as per lost tribes had no king except that of David's line (Judah).
Jeremiah 33:14Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Doing works without law will have Jesus saying He never knew you.
Jesus restates the ordinances written in stone,
and holds men accountable for keeping them by Jesus' authority.

Matthew 22:37 and Matthew 19:17
1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (1st - 4th commandments)
2. Thou shalt do no murder, (6th)
3. Thou shalt not commit adultery, (7th)
4. Thou shalt not steal, (8th & 10th)
5. Thou shalt not bear false witness, (9th)
6. Honour thy father and mother, (5th)
and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

When Jesus says "But I say unto you..." He makes the law even more strict, by judging the heart before the action occurs. Calling someone a fool may earn you hellfire... and is equal to murder. Controlling the man this way, cleanses from the inside out... not just whitewashing the pot, like those viper-Pharisees.

What Jesus did say makes the sacrificial system... which, oddly enough, paid the priests for the sins of man, and only the rich people could afford to be sinful... be replaced by "God will have mercy and not sacrifice". Because all through the Prophets we see that same theme... God desires not the death of the cattle on a thousand hills because these cattle belong to Him... and it's kind of an insult to offer back to God a completely degraded version of a living creature... and God cares for the sparrow and also for the cattle. They have chosen their own ways, is what Esaias 66 says. In fact, like they chose the kings of the nations around them, they chose the sacrificial system like the nations around them. They didn't want to be separate and called out.

So the whole letter of the Hebrews is kind of a sick joke. They act for all the world as though God set up that sacrificial system, when really, it all happened because they were afraid of God in the fire, and asked to have Moses mediate. And so the face-to-face worship of God became an altar of earth, an altar of stone, an altar of dressed stones, steps to raise the priestly altar above peons, and linen breeches to hide the nakedness of the priests... when in reality, they were all naked because they chose ritual over walking with God in the cool of the evening.

Works of the Law are not sufficient.
Romans 4:1-6What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The prophets say the harlot is a real city

Rev.17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev.11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev.18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Matthew.23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Esaias 1:1 The vision which Esaias the son of Amos saw, which he saw against Juda, and against Jerusalem ... 21 How has the faithful city Sion, once full of judgment, become a harlot! wherein righteousness lodged, but now murderers. 22 Your silver is worthless, thy wine merchants mix the wine with water. 23 Thy princes are rebellious, companions of thieves, loving bribes, seeking after rewards; not pleading for orphans, and not heeding the cause of widows.LXX

Jezekiel.16:1 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, testify to Jerusalem of her iniquities ... 35 Therefore, harlot, hear the word of the Lord: 36 Thus saith the Lord, Because thou hast poured forth thy money, therefore thy shame shall be discovered in thy harlotry with thy lovers, and with regard to all the imaginations of thine iniquities, and for the blood of thy children which thou hast given to them. 37 Therefore, behold, I will gather all thy lovers with whom thou hast consorted, and all whom thou hast loved, with all whom thou didst hate; and I will gather them against thee round about, and will expose thy wickedness to them, and they shall see all thy shame. 38 And I will be avenged on thee with the vengeance of an adulteress, and I will bring upon thee blood of fury and jealousy. 39 And I will deliver thee into their hands, and they shall break down thy house of harlotry, and destroy thine high place; and they shall strip thee of thy garments, and shall take thy proud ornaments, and leave thee naked and bare. 40 And they shall bring multitudes upon thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and pierce thee with their swords. 41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and shall execute vengeance on thee in the sight of many women: and I will turn thee back from harlotry, and I will no more give thee rewards.LXX

Revelation.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall devour her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The harlot as a city is an allegory on a allegory. Jerusalem is the focus of our faith.
New Jerusalem is the bride. The bride is the faithful of Christ. Satanic mirror - The harlot are the cogs of the beast. The beast is the focus of the cogs.
Rev 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Also the city is babylon - not Jerusalem. Rev 17:5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Why Jerusalem vs babylon - the hate each other.
Psalms 137:7Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

In other words, the nations that Jerusalem did her harlotry with are the 10 horns which are 10 kings who have power with the beast for one hour, including Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Odd that Assyria didn't show up in that statue of Daniel's isn't it? Since Assyria built Tyre, and they seem to be the northern nations called Gog/Magog of the latter years. But Assyria pretty much owned what used to belong to Greece when Josephus said Lydia was Lud... but earliest Lydia never spoke Semitic. Conquested nations shouldn't figure into Gen.10 theory.

The 4th beast is 10 horns - 3 uprooted + 1 chief/stout. Seen through the eyes of a Judahite Daniel . What were the empires uprooted, who was the chief horn?
Dan 1:6 Among these young men were some from Judah: Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah.

The combined beast of Revelation - 10 horns as seen by John of the 10 tribes. If the knowledge is scriptural why is there a difference from Daniel (same bible)? if extrabiblical what is the filtering lens that permits John to see 10 (and Daniel to see 8)

Here is my explanation
The 10 horns are the ten commandments - the roman society became christological. Christianity is explained rudimentary as the 10 commandments.

The 3 uprooted commandments are
#1 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
#2 You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
#4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

What is the stout/chief horn - Doctrine of Trinity.
#1 is violated - one God vs Godhead.
#2 is violated - Trinity requires imagination of things above in heaven. Divine essence, Duties and Powers - co-equal....
#4 is violated - Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Only through Jesus can one communicate/obey the father. The holy spirit is not sufficient. The father will not accept you without Jesus.

To John the 10 commandments are the 10 commandments. The Trinitarian doctrine is remarked in the harlot not the horns.

 

[Ligurian]

Galilee of the Gentiles (4:15). The area known as Galilee was part of the land conquered under the leadership of Joshua, and was given to the tribes of Zebulun and Naphtali. In the 8th century B.C., the land was invaded by the Assyrians, many of the inhabitants were taken into exile, and the region was repopulated with Gentiles.
Galilee of the Gentiles

Israel as per lost tribes had no king except that of David's line (Judah).
Jeremiah 33:14Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

[...]

Also the city is babylon - not Jerusalem.

In the LXX that Jesus quotes from, Jeremiah 33:6 calls Jerusalem "a curse to all the nations", the cup of trembling. Isaiah 65:15 calls Judah "a name of loathing". Jeremiah 19:11 says Jerusalem and Judah are "an earthen vessel which can never be mended again". Isaiah 65 explains that the only reason Jerusalem and Judah haven't been destroyed is that the Seed of Judah had yet to be born. For +/- 2000 years, Judah-Jerusalem has been living on borrowed time... and most people seem never to have noticed... people see what they expect to see.

Jeremiah 33:2 Thus said the Lord; Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and thou shalt declare to all the Jews, and to all that come to worship in the house of the Lord, all the words which I commanded thee to speak to them; abate not one word. 3 Peradventure they will hear, and turn every one from his evil way: then I will cease from the evils which I purpose to do to them, because of their evil practices. 4 And thou shalt say, Thus said the Lord; If ye will not hearken to Me, to walk in My statutes which I set before you, 5 to hearken to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I send to you early in the morning; yea, I sent them, but ye hearkened not to Me; 6 then will I make this house as Selo, and I will make this city a curse to all the nations of all the earth.LXX

Try to rethink your understanding of the Law. When the whole world becomes nations full of special snowflakes who do no wrong, according to the teachers... and because this without-law abounds, the love of many wax cold... time runs out on the world. Jesus says the Law will stand until the Earth and the Heavens are replaced, which means all the without-law people will be gone.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be (ginomai) fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be (ginomai) fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now (teleo) accomplished, that the scripture might be (teleioo) fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is (teleo) finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

That this scripture might be fulfilled:

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

The gentiles who don't know Moses would never see this and might think that the law was finished, if they weren't very careful within their very own thinking. But Jesus says His words will never pass away... and so, here they stand, for each and every one of us to discover.

 

[Chi.C]

In the LXX that Jesus quotes from, Jeremiah 33:6 calls Jerusalem "a curse to all the nations", the cup of trembling. Isaiah 65:15 calls Judah "a name of loathing". Jeremiah 19:11 says Jerusalem and Judah are "an earthen vessel which can never be mended again". Isaiah 65 explains that the only reason Jerusalem and Judah haven't been destroyed is that the Seed of Judah had yet to be born. For +/- 2000 years, Judah-Jerusalem has been living on borrowed time... and most people seem never to have noticed... people see what they expect to see.

Jeremiah 33:2 Thus said the Lord; Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and thou shalt declare to all the Jews, and to all that come to worship in the house of the Lord, all the words which I commanded thee to speak to them; abate not one word. 3 Peradventure they will hear, and turn every one from his evil way: then I will cease from the evils which I purpose to do to them, because of their evil practices. 4 And thou shalt say, Thus said the Lord; If ye will not hearken to Me, to walk in My statutes which I set before you, 5 to hearken to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I send to you early in the morning; yea, I sent them, but ye hearkened not to Me; 6 then will I make this house as Selo, and I will make this city a curse to all the nations of all the earth.LXX

As we are the children of Sarah, they are the children of Hagar. We are beholden to the promise of the New Jerusalem (Faith in the Christ) while they are slave to the old (the Law). As such we are to receive all to which we have tied our fates.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. All oblations by the children of Hagar have ceased. The covenant of Mt Sinai is tied to the old Jerusalem. The oblations by the children of Sarah continues. The covenant with Jesus is tied with the new Jerusalem.

The symbolic city of babylon is the symbolic harlot. Old Jerusalem is a mere shadow of the sin of babylon.

Try to rethink your understanding of the Law. When the whole world becomes nations full of special snowflakes who do no wrong, according to the teachers... and because this without-law abounds, the love of many wax cold... time runs out on the world. Jesus says the Law will stand until the Earth and the Heavens are replaced, which means all the without-law people will be gone.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be (ginomai) fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be (ginomai) fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now (teleo) accomplished, that the scripture might be (teleioo) fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is (teleo) finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

How does the a Christian obey the Law? By following the example of Jesus (and the Apostles) who fulfills the law. Why will the law stand till the "New heaven and new earth"? Because the law binds the children of Hagar from eating the children of Sarah. When the New Jerusalem is established by the King with the Iron Rod, only then the Law has fulfilled its purpose.

Where there is a Will, there is a Death. What was fulfilled was the Will (Testament) of Jesus. It was his Will that grants us freedom from death.
Heb 9:11-22 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

That this scripture might be fulfilled:

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

The gentiles who don't know Moses would never see this and might think that the law was finished, if they weren't very careful within their very own thinking. But Jesus says His words will never pass away... and so, here they stand, for each and every one of us to discover.

I too believe Jesus is the "Paschal Lamb" foreshadowed by Exodus, The blood of the Lamb is smeared on the lintel and 2 posts of the door - the eldest son was spared. The eldest male is said to belong to God. The Mark of the Lamb on our foreheads and brow. So we are spared death.

 

[Ligurian]

As we are the children of Sarah, they are the children of Hagar. We are beholden to the promise of the New Jerusalem (Faith in the Christ) while they are slave to the old (the Law). As such we are to receive all to which we have tied our fates.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him." My sheep hear My voice, says Jesus.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. Heareth and Doeth = Faith and Works

James 2:18-21 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. All oblations by the children of Hagar have ceased. The covenant of Mt Sinai is tied to the old Jerusalem. The oblations by the children of Sarah continues. The covenant with Jesus is tied with the new Jerusalem.

The symbolic city of babylon is the symbolic harlot. Old Jerusalem is a mere shadow of the sin of babylon.

Sarah was under the law. Hagar was a slave. That allegory is nonsense.

If it doesn't fit with what Jesus says, I set it aside... Jesus is my yardstick.

How does the a Christian obey the Law? By following the example of Jesus

Where does Jesus say that? No place that I've ever found.

Where there is a Will, there is a Death. What was fulfilled was the Will (Testament) of Jesus. It was his Will that grants us freedom from death.
Heb 9:11-22

The New Covenant is the whole Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus taught his Disciples from Galilee, to tell to all the nations... Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:18-20.

BTW... never having been under the sacrificial system, that Barnabus Hebrews letter doesn't apply to me... or to anyone after the temple fell, actually. The temple wasn't God's idea so the sacrifices certainly wern't.

Matthew 9:13 "But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, 'I will have mercy, and not sacrifice': for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Without repentance there is no forgiveness.

I too believe Jesus is the "Paschal Lamb" foreshadowed by Exodus, The blood of the Lamb is smeared on the lintel and 2 posts of the door - the eldest son was spared. The eldest male is said to belong to God. The Mark of the Lamb on our foreheads and brow. So we are spared death.

"It is finished." What is finished? The preparation for the sacrifice.

Hyssop, that the scripture might be fulfilled

"This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

All the views have something to contribute. Just because I'm gravitating toward a futurist view at my point in the study does not mean I lack any respect for others view different views cause the question cannot be completely answered, but one day we'll all know which view was right. Till all are one.

 

[Chi.C]

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him." My sheep hear My voice, says Jesus.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. Heareth and Doeth = Faith and Works

James 2:18-21 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

When I get to meet Jesus, I would say "I have obeyed You" not "I didn't kill anyone, nor did I commit adultery...". Obeying Jesus obeys the Law.

Sarah was under the law. Hagar was a slave. That allegory is nonsense.

If it doesn't fit with what Jesus says, I set it aside... Jesus is my yardstick.

The allegory of Gal 4:24-26 is very explicit. The covenant of Sinai (Hagar - Covenant of Moses) is of Jerusalem of now (~30AD) while the covenant of the Promise (Sarah) is attributed the New Jerusalem). The destruction of the Temple is the destruction of old Jerusalem (in fulfillment of Luke 21 and Matt 24). The Revelation prophecies are yet to come as it pertains to the 7 churches. Babylon did not fall at 70AD.

Consider the description of the temple
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
1 Cor3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Where does Jesus say that? No place that I've ever found.

1 Corinthians 11:1-2 ESV
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

The New Covenant is the whole Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus taught his Disciples from Galilee, to tell to all the nations... Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:18-20.

BTW... never having been under the sacrificial system, that Barnabus Hebrews letter doesn't apply to me... or to anyone after the temple fell, actually. The temple wasn't God's idea so the sacrifices certainly wern't.

Matthew 9:13 "But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, 'I will have mercy, and not sacrifice': for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Without repentance there is no forgiveness.

Repentence is good but I'll have to read more on your objections to sacrifice.

"It is finished." What is finished? The preparation for the sacrifice.

Hyssop, that the scripture might be fulfilled

"This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

Jesus redeemed the world. He triggered many events including the above.

 

[Ligurian]

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him." My sheep hear My voice, says Jesus.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. Heareth and Doeth = Faith and Works

James 2:18-21 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?



Sarah was under the law. Hagar was a slave. That allegory is nonsense.

If it doesn't fit with what Jesus says, I set it aside... Jesus is my yardstick.



Where does Jesus say that? No place that I've ever found.



The New Covenant is the whole Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus taught his Disciples from Galilee, to tell to all the nations... Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:18-20.

BTW... never having been under the sacrificial system, that Barnabus Hebrews letter doesn't apply to me... or to anyone after the temple fell, actually. The temple wasn't God's idea so the sacrifices certainly wern't.

Matthew 9:13 "But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, 'I will have mercy, and not sacrifice': for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Without repentance there is no forgiveness.



"It is finished." What is finished? The preparation for the sacrifice.

Hyssop, that the scripture might be fulfilled

"This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

When I get to meet Jesus, I would say "I have obeyed You" not "I didn't kill anyone, nor did I commit adultery...". Obeying Jesus obeys the Law.


The allegory of Gal 4:24-26 is very explicit. The covenant of Sinai (Hagar - Covenant of Moses) is of Jerusalem of now (~30AD) while the covenant of the Promise (Sarah) is attributed the New Jerusalem). The destruction of the Temple is the destruction of old Jerusalem (in fulfillment of Luke 21 and Matt 24). The Revelation prophecies are yet to come as it pertains to the 7 churches. Babylon did not fall at 70AD.

Consider the description of the temple
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
1 Cor3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


1 Corinthians 11:1-2 ESV
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.


Repentence is good but I'll have to read more on your objections to sacrifice.


Jesus redeemed the world. He triggered many events including the above.

Matthew 19:8 "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

Exodus 20:18-20 "And all the people perceived the thundering, and the flashes, and the voice of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and all the people feared and stood afar off, and said to Moses, Speak thou to us, and let not God speak to us, lest we die. And Moses says to them, Be of good courage, for God is come to you to try you, that his fear may be among you, that ye sin not."

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

If you didn't know these two OT verses, you wouldn't even know the test of the false prophet, or ever begin to think that God might be testing the church.

How does the a Christian obey the Law? By following the example of Jesus

Where does Jesus say that? No place that I've ever found.

1 Corinthians 11:1-2 ESV
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

Why not just admit that Jesus never said it?... "the traditions" is another problem.

Matthew 15:1-9 But He answered and said unto them, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."

 

[Chi.C]

Matthew 19:8 "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

Exodus 20:18-20 "And all the people perceived the thundering, and the flashes, and the voice of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and all the people feared and stood afar off, and said to Moses, Speak thou to us, and let not God speak to us, lest we die. And Moses says to them, Be of good courage, for God is come to you to try you, that his fear may be among you, that ye sin not."

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

If you didn't know these two OT verses, you wouldn't even know the test of the false prophet, or ever begin to think that God might be testing the church.

Following in the analogy of Matt 19:8, to use the Law as a sword, you are a soldier of fortune. To use the Law as a shield, you are an advocate.

I will keep the verses in mind. May His will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Why not just admit that Jesus never said it?... "the traditions" is another problem.

Matthew 15:1-9 But He answered and said unto them, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

I stand corrected that Jesus did not specifically state it. But consider the following logic
Premise 1) Scriptures are written in the Holy Spirit. Scriptures are true.
Premise 2) The Apostles are followers of Christ
Premise 3) The Apostles tell us to follow Christ
Premise 4) Christ is the fulfillment of the Law

Premise 2 + 3 - We should follow Christ
Premise (2+3) + 4 - We should follow Christ and hence the Law.
Premise (2+3+4) + 1 - Following Christ includes the Law. True

The use "tradition" is simply teachings not the hijacked term used to violate the Scriptures. As a noun, 1Cor 11:1-2 tradition is qualified as that taught by Christ. Matt 15:1-9 is qualified as that taught by Pharisees and Sadducees

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."

Amen

 

[Ligurian]

Following in the analogy of Matt 19:8, to use the Law as a sword, you are a soldier of fortune. To use the Law as a shield, you are an advocate.

I will keep the verses in mind. May His will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.


I stand corrected that Jesus did not specifically state it. But consider the following logic
Premise 1) Scriptures are written in the Holy Spirit. Scriptures are true.
Premise 2) The Apostles are followers of Christ
Premise 3) The Apostles tell us to follow Christ
Premise 4) Christ is the fulfillment of the Law

Premise 2 + 3 - We should follow Christ
Premise (2+3) + 4 - We should follow Christ and hence the Law.
Premise (2+3+4) + 1 - Following Christ includes the Law. True

The use "tradition" is simply teachings not the hijacked term used to violate the Scriptures. As a noun, 1Cor 11:1-2 tradition is qualified as that taught by Christ. Matt 15:1-9 is qualified as that taught by Pharisees and Sadducees


Amen

I've been arguing these same points for years.
Two sets of verses are making the most sense.
Twin verses from two very different missions:
Galatians 2:7-9
Matthew 10:5-7

I used to know the first set by heart, because Galatians is pretty much all they taught in that church. But it wasn't until I left there and set Paul aside... and started reading Matthew and John exclusively, that I began to hear Jesus' voice.

So I came to believe that hearing about Jesus isn't the same as hearing Jesus... I mean hearing the words that Jesus said to the men who followed Him 42 months. These words stay with me. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

 

[Chi.C]

I've been arguing these same points for years.
Two sets of verses are making the most sense.
Twin verses from two very different missions:
Galatians 2:7-9
Matthew 10:5-7

I used to know the first set by heart, because Galatians is pretty much all they taught in that church. But it wasn't until I left there and set Paul aside... and started reading Matthew and John exclusively, that I began to hear Jesus' voice.

So I came to believe that hearing about Jesus isn't the same as hearing Jesus... I mean hearing the words that Jesus said to the men who followed Him 42 months. These words stay with me. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Hearsay vs a direct quote, is certainly an interesting facet to explore. I surveyed the Synoptics, and was surprised the verses still required logical analysis to come to the said conclusion.
It is good to follow Jesus. Amen.
Good discussion, thanks.

 

[Sunshinee777]

Beasts in Apocalpytic liturature like Daniel and Revelation - are nations or geo-political-religious systems.

So in Daniel 7 and 8 the beasts are the various empires from Babylon to Rome.

"The mark of the Beast" and the "image of the Beast" and 666 can all be found in Revelation 13

The beast "deceives the whole world" so you won't know what is going on when the time comes unless you are fully informed by the Word of God.

Rev 13
3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been fatally wounded, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who live on it worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of the sky to the earth in the presence of people. 14 And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

2 Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

Matt 24
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

2 Cor 11
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

========================
the Bible theme is that the deception works -- it gets the whole world. Only the few fully informed by the Bible will be able to withstand it.

Those who unwittingly receive the mark of the beast - will have no clue that what they are doing is some form of idolatry. Nothing nearly so obvious to them

You got it right, it’s about deception. But I don’t think it will come to know the scripture but having close relationship with God, being filled with Holy Spirit. Because bible it says we need to be led by the Holy Spirit.
We can’t survive satan’s deception without day to day and minute by minute relationship with God.
”The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.”
There will be lot of problems we can’t solve with our own we need God.

 

[Berean Tim]

666 is the name of the man; but I've also heard it's 616?:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”
Revelation 13:18

2nd century church father Ireneus said the 616 number was a mistake of the copyist

 

[BobRyan]

You got it right, it’s about deception. But I don’t think it will come to know the scripture but having close relationship with God, being filled with Holy Spirit. Because bible it says we need to be led by the Holy Spirit.
We can’t survive satan’s deception without day to day and minute by minute relationship with God.
”The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.”
There will be lot of problems we can’t solve with our own we need God.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is Truth"

2 Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,


Knowing what God's Word was saying at the time of Noah - was a life or death issue.
Knowing what the Word of God said about the Messiah - was a huge deal for Israel at the time of John the baptizer.

Not knowing - was fatal -- and will be again if we ignore the way of escape provided for us in the Word of God.

 

[Sunshinee777]

No. God created the earth for a purpose. Greek mythology is just Satan's version of history.

Exactly and that’s not the only part of history which is twisted and taught as a fact in schools...