Mark of the Beast

[Freedm]

What is Revelation 19 describing if not the Second Coming ?

Revelation 19 is describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

She is clearly described as the harlot in Ezekiel 16. Jesus also describes her as the one who kills the prophets in Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you"

Revelation 19 clearly references Jerusalem as both the harlot and she who spilled the blood of God's servants.

"for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Remember that the book of Revelation begins by telling us that these are visions of things "that must soon take place". Soon is not 2000 years later, not even by God's measure. All those things took place in John's lifetime.

 

[Freedm]

When the time comes, if someone receive the mark of the beast, can it be removed?

Like, let's suppose someone gets the mark, but after that a Christian friend comes to him and teach him bringing him to know Jesus, God and what the Scriptures say. Can this guy get the mark removed?

Your question proves that the mark can not be a micro chip or anything other than a spiritual mark, because only a spiritual mark can truly be a personal choice.

 

[Douggg]

A small percentage has already been saved, all throughout history. There's no need to wait for a future fulfilment of this expectation.

I looking forward to the day when the Jews, Israel, become believers in Jesus and embrace the everlasting gospel so that they can have life eternal.

Which will happen in the middle part of the 7 years forthcoming - which in the middle of it, God takes up his great power and puts an end to Satan and his third of the angels kingdom of Babylon the great.

That is what everyone in heaven will be cheering and rejoicing about in that day....

Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

 

[Freedm]

This is something that can not be reversed. No "Christians" accept the 2 witnesses. All those who avoid the mark will have already had their heads chopped off. Bodies without heads will not be walking around warning people not to take the mark, nor be able to offer a way to remove the mark.

Yours is an interpretation based in fear.

I looking forward to the day when the Jews, Israel, become believers in Jesus and embrace the everlasting gospel so that they can have life eternal.

Which will happen in the middle part of the 7 years forthcoming - which in the middle of it, God takes up his great power and puts an end to Satan and his third of the angels kingdom of Babylon the great.

That is what everyone in heaven will be cheering and rejoicing about in that day....

Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Your quote of Revelation 11 tells us that Jesus has taken his power and begun to reign. Is this not exactly what happened in Matthew 28:18? Jesus said I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.

Revelation 11 is speaking of Jesus' resurrection. That is when he took his great power and began to reign. Again, there's no need to wait for a future fulfilment of this expectation.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 19 is describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

She is clearly described as the harlot in Ezekiel 16. Jesus also describes her as the one who kills the prophets in Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you"

Revelation 19 clearly references Jerusalem as both the harlot and she who spilled the blood of God's servants.

"for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Remember that the book of Revelation begins by telling us that these are visions of things "that must soon take place". Soon is not 2000 years later, not even by God's measure. All those things took place in John's lifetime.

The visions were the messages about the 7 churches. Those messages happened soon for those churches. After chapter 4, John was a witness. They were not visions. John lived out the Second Coming that is soon to happen for us, not the churches in the first century.

 

[Freedm]

The visions were the messages about the 7 churches. Those messages happened soon for those churches. After chapter 4, John was a witness. They were not visions. John lived out the Second Coming that is soon to happen for us, not the churches in the first century.

And yet, the events described in Revelation perfectly match the events that took place in the first century AD.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Revelation 19 is describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

She is clearly described as the harlot in Ezekiel 16. Jesus also describes her as the one who kills the prophets in Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you"

Revelation 19 clearly references Jerusalem as both the harlot and she who spilled the blood of God's servants.

"for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Remember that the book of Revelation begins by telling us that these are visions of things "that must soon take place". Soon is not 2000 years later, not even by God's measure. All those things took place in John's lifetime.

How do you KNOW how God measures time, when He has lived for eternity in both directions? Isn't there scripture about a day to the Lord being 1000 years to man or something like that? I do not pretend to imply I know the answer myself, for I surely do not. And the 1000:1 ratio could be just a huge number that man has translated into a large ratio such as 1000:1 (I do now know ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek).

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

When in AD 70 did this happen?
Revelation 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

When did this happen already in the past during the reign of Nero? From Revelation Chapter 9:
13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

 

[Freedm]

How do you KNOW how God measures time.

Good question. Here's a good answer: The reason we know that "what must soon take place" does not refer to 2000 years later, is because we see similar language in the book of Daniel, relating to an already fulfilled prophecy.

In Daniel 8:26 we see "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future". This was a reference to the temple desecration of Antiochus Epiphanes which ended after the Maccabees rebelled and freed Israel from Seleucid rule. The re-dedication of the temple after the 2300 evenings and morning is now known as Hanukkah.

The re-dedication took place in approximately 164 BC, but the vision was given in
approximately 550 BC making this "distant future" less than 400 years later. So if the distant future is less than 400 years later, then we know that "what must soon take place" will be significantly less than 400 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Yours is an interpretation based in fear.

Since when is being honest a part of fear?

If you are afraid of the truth, that is fear.

The truth is: those on earth will choose life or death. To choose life is to get one's head chopped off. To choose death, one receives the mark.

 

[Timtofly]

And yet, the events described in Revelation perfectly match the events that took place in the first century AD.

Not perfectly. Satan did not sit in Jerusalem with his FP for 42 months after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

Christ did not prevent the destruction, and turn Jerusalem into a garden.

 

[Freedm]

When in AD 70 did this happen?
Revelation 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

That is a reference to God revealing his face in wrath upon Jerusalem. (Symbolic language obviously since the heavens can not literally roll up like a scroll.) The seals are describing the hardship and suffering in Jerusalem at that time, which culminates in the destruction of Jerusalem which is the wrath of God.

The symbolism in your example is typical of symbolism used to describe any movement of God.

Zechariah 9:14 Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning.

Isaiah 34:4 All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll

Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Nahum 1:3 the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

 

[Freedm]

When did this happen already in the past during the reign of Nero? From Revelation Chapter 9:
13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

All of this refers to the battle in 70 AD.

 

[Freedm]

Not perfectly. Satan did not sit in Jerusalem with his FP for 42 months after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

Christ did not prevent the destruction, and turn Jerusalem into a garden.

If you're going to compare historical events to the book of Revelation you have to actually quote the book of Revelation and not just give your own interpretation of it. How can I even know what you're referring to?

 

[Ligurian]

Wrong interpretation and application of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus is not talking about the church any where in the OD. The church is by Faith. It is not by God's choice. That application leads to Calvinism and limited Atonement along with works salvation. The goats and sheep is current Israel that is about to be separated at the Second Coming. The church goes to Paradise. The church is not split between sheep and goats. The apostate church joins up with Satan.

The Disciples are those who abide in Jesus after they say they believe Him.
Can't really say you believe someone if you don't do what He says.

Matthew.24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew.28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world.

Jesus says the message never changes. He taught the words the Father gave to Him, just as He says He did in John.12:28-50. Jesus says that we will believe on Him because the 11 Disciples will tell those words to us, John.17:20. Jesus says they will bear witness of Him because they were with Him from the beginning, John.15:26.

If it seems like common sense... well, sense must not be very common, these days.

John.6:37 All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.

Matthew.7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

James.2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Matthew.15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew.4:18 and 21 = Peter, Andrew, James and John.
Matthew.9:9 = Matthew.
John.1:44 = Philip.

I've already done this work elsewhere, so it's easy to find out where Jesus got His Apostles. Apparently Jesus did exactly what He said He came to do... find and save the lost sheep of Israel, which are the 10-north-tribes.

The kingdom was divided and it still is, even today. It is incorrect to call that modern nation in Palestine by the name of the 10-north-tribes. In fact, Jesus made that point for us.

John.7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill Him.
John.1:11 He came unto his own, and His own received Him not.

Yeah... the goats in the church are the tares.

Synopsis:
Jesus tells us that He is building His Church, starting with the men given to Him by the Father. At the Mount of Olives, Jesus is talking to the disciples who would soon be told to disciple the Gentiles by telling them to keep Jesus' Commandments. These people are only the Church, which Jesus has built upon the saying of Peter... because Peter proclaims the authority/name of Jesus [Revelation 3:8-10]. And the people who not only hear what Jesus said, but do what Jesus told them to do (Matthew 7:24-25), are the one and only Church of the One Shepherd (John 10:1-30).

So you quote many Scriptures except the Olivet Discourse to prove my point concerning the Olivet Discourse? Jesus is talking about His Second Coming in the Olivet Discourse. He mentioned nothing about His first coming in His answers.

Matthew 13:3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, "Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up..."

 

[Ligurian]

If you're going to compare historical events to the book of Revelation you have to actually quote the book of Revelation and not just give your own interpretation of it. How can I even know what you're referring to?

Timtofly seems to think Revelation was written in chronological order, and probably thinks the same thing about Daniel.

But if Daniel wrote in chronological order, Chapters 1-4 would be followed by Chapters 7-8, followed by Chapter 5, Chapter 9, Chapter 6, and Chapters 10-12... so they say.
Daniel.2:4 through 7:28 are said to be written in Aramaic...
How does a Bear in Aramaic become a Ram in Hebrew?
How did the Leopard in Aramaic become the Goat in Hebrew?
Are Aramaic and Hebrew not very similar?
Why were the Chaldeans speaking Syriac, but Daniel spoke Hebrew?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I do want to offer one perspective that I hope we can all agree. Christians cannot possibly accept the mark of the beast and it cannot possibly be contained in the COVID vaccine for several reasons I didn't invent and instead asked several experts. First, a senior Pastor said Christians cannot take the mark because either we won't be here to be exposed to it (rapture theory of the church) or being sealed by the Holy Spirit and preserved by the Spirit, we cannot be repossessed by Satan or his demons as taking the mark might imply. Second, a medical doctor and principal electronics engineer said with all known physics its impossible to molecularize a tracking device like a GPS receiver and RF transmitter and power source, antenna, modulator, and controller, and besides, we already have that "mark" with a standard cell phone. Finally, if the government did (which it cannot by the known laws of physics) somehow come up with a molecular version of such a series of microcircuits and the PCB to connect them together, why would it ever be put in such a high profile shot as COVID-19? Wouldn't it be much easier to sneak it into the normal flu shot? You don't have to agree with each of those assertions. Any single one strikes down the idea that somehow the COVID-19 vaccine continues the prophesized "mark of the beast" regardless of you view of eschatology, as best I understand the possible views, which I admit I'm still learning.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Good question. Here's a good answer: The reason we know that "what must soon take place" does not refer to 2000 years later, is because we see similar language in the book of Daniel, relating to an already fulfilled prophecy.

In Daniel 8:26 we see "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future". This was a reference to the temple desecration of Antiochus Epiphanes which ended after the Maccabees rebelled and freed Israel from Seleucid rule. The re-dedication of the temple after the 2300 evenings and morning is now known as Hanukkah.

The re-dedication took place in approximately 164 BC, but the vision was given in
approximately 550 BC making this "distant future" less than 400 years later. So if the distant future is less than 400 years later, then we know that "what must soon take place" will be significantly less than 400 years.

Could Daniel also be referring to a time in the future long after AD 70? What makes it necessary to have to only apply to AD 70? Could it have been partially fulfilled during the reign of Nero and comes to complete fulfillment in the conceivably yet to occur future tribulation? "Distance future" seems to imply a long time, but not necessarily over 2000 years, but it still opens the door to that interpretation IMHO. It seems to me that preterism hinges nearly entirely on the single word "near" in the Greek New Testament, and what seemed near to an infinite, omniprescent God the Lord Jesus Christ could seem near to him and ten million years to moral man who only lives a 100 years at best.

 

[Ligurian]

I do want to offer one perspective that I hope we can all agree. Christians cannot possibly accept the mark of the beast and it cannot possibly be contained in the COVID vaccine for several reasons I didn't invent and instead asked several experts. First, a senior Pastor said Christians cannot take the mark because either we won't be here to be exposed to it (rapture theory of the church) or being sealed by the Holy Spirit and preserved by the Spirit, we cannot be repossessed by Satan or his demons as taking the mark might imply.

Rev.3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

If even the Church of Philadelphia can lose what it has, to be found keeping His commandments when He harvests the wheat into His barn, this is the only way to keep the Holy Spirt.

By example, David, the man after God's own heart, is found saying, "take not thy Holy Spirit from me," so we know that once-saved-always-saved is simply not true. If David had never repented/changed-his-mind, he would not have been called the man after God's own heart. Jesus says we are required to make peace with the brother we have injured, to even offer our gifts at the altar... which no longer stands. How much more shall we, who have been forgiven by God, forgive and seek to be forgiven by our fellow man? This is what the church of Ephesus in Rev.2 had lost. It's not her first love towards God, but her Brotherly Love... lost no doubt, because of the false apostles she had found and cast out of her, leaving behind a vulnerable church that was partly still under the influence of the teachings of these false apostles.

And so Jesus had said to His Disciples which were following Him by keeping His commandments:

Matthew.24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit are these elect ones here:

Matthew.24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jesus was speaking to the elect of Divided-Kingdom,Israel-branch on the Mount of Olives. Divided-Kingdom,Judah-branch will be saved+sealed when she sees the two witnesses taken up. Then the remaining tribes will be saved+sealed. Meanwhile, the rest of the world will be sending each other presents to celebrate that event... they will follow the beast.