Mark of the Beast

[Freedm]

The events are still presented in chronological order. Some events should never happen, but they are still prophecied because of the potential for them to happen.

You believe events are prophesied that will never actually happen?

 

[Timtofly]

We don't know how many people were beheaded in those days, but it's possible that this "beheading" is simply symbolic of having been murdered. We do know that John the baptist and James were both beheaded though there were certainly others.

I tend to think that "those who were beheaded" is a euphemism for martyrs, and Jesus himself speaks of the martyrs killed by Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you". Would these not be people who long to be avenged, and for whom God executes vengeance? God's own messengers of love and hope?

All the church longs for vengeance, not just one group. The issue is that general persecution and tribulation for the last 1991 years, is not the same circumstance of choosing between the mark and being beheaded. That point is still future, and after the Second Coming, if at all.

 

[Freedm]

Actually you and I are in full agreement about the millenium, although I'm more pessemistic about how long we have left. It also sounds like you are more Amillenial like me rather than postmillenial like many preterists.
I am still wondering on which of Luke 21, Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15, you find to be past versus future. To me, the unity of these passages is the biggest reason I have trouble affirming preterism.

2 Thess 2 speaks of events in our past. I'm not 100% sure who the man of lawlessness was (it was probably either Eleazar ben Simon or Simon Bar Giora) but the rebellion was that of the zealots rebelling against Rome. This is what triggered the war and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I don't think we have enough historical details to pin down everything described in that chapter, but we know this man proclaimed himself God in the temple so this must have happened before the temple was destroyed.

The one who was holding him back was most likely Ananus ben Ananus, the chief priest who negotiated with Rome, delaying the rebellion. Josephus indeed believed that the death of Ananus was the catalyst that opened the doors to destruction.
I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews 4.5.2)

2 Thess 2 also reveals that the man of lawlessness works in accordance with Satan the great deceiver in that he also deceives those he leads. And it was in fact his deception of the Idumeans that allowed him to take control of the city as he convinced them that Ananus was planning to betray Jerusalem to the Romans. This was a lie that led to the slaughter of thousands of innocent people.

However, it was resolved to call in the Idumeans; so they wrote a short letter to this effect: That Ananus had imposed on the people, and was betraying their metropolis to the Romans; that they themselves had revolted from the rest, and were in custody in the temple, on account of the preservation of their liberty; that there was but a small time left wherein they might hope for their deliverance; and that unless they would come immediately to their assistance, they should themselves be soon in the power of Artanus, and the city would be in the power of the Romans. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews 4.4.1)

 

[Freedm]

All the church longs for vengeance, not just one group. The issue is that general persecution and tribulation for the last 1991 years, is not the same circumstance of choosing between the mark and being beheaded. That point is still future, and after the Second Coming, if at all.

You don't find it significant that Jesus made a point of Jerusalem killing the prophets and those sent to her?

 

[BuildingApologetics]

Luke 21 is definitely in the past. When is the last time Jerusalem was compassed with armies? This speaks of the day of judgment of 70 AD. Jesus himself said "these are the days of vengeance", which can be tied to the souls under the altar asking for vengeance. And note that Jesus is speaking of a local event when he says "let them that are in Judea flee to the mountains" which is exactly what happened. All the Christians of Jerusalem fled into the mountains of Pela and thereby were spared the horrors of the time of judgment.

I think most Christians think this is future because they assume that when it speaks of Jesus coming in a cloud, they assume it is literal, but I understand this to be symbolic language of judgment. There are many such examples of God being "enrobed in clouds" when it describes God as being angry and meting out judgment.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Jeremiah 4:13-14
Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Zephaniah 1:15-17
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.

(Matthew 24 is the same)

Before I comment on your overall interpretations, would you also explain what you believe 1 Peter 3:10-13 means?

 

[Taodeching]

So John was lying when he claimed people had their heads chopped off instead of receiving the mark? When did the mark stop being an issue, and how do we know we are not marked now and removed from the Lamb's book of life? No one has in the last 1900 years had to choose, so all who have their heads, should be marked and removed from the Lamb's book of life, since then, no? John seems to indicate strongly about the head removal part and being a martyr. How many heads were removed by the Romans? And those killed in battle do not count. This was a normal society decision. We are talking about Roman citizens, not the enemies of Rome.

No, the futurist are lying and doing a great disservice in misinterpreting Sacred Scripture. The people John wrote to experienced it all though he wrote in symbology. John's last book and indeed the whole of Scripture was not written to us in anyway, shape, or form while they are for us.

 

[Freedm]

Before I comment on your overall interpretations, would you also explain what you believe 1 Peter 3:10-13 means?

Do you mean 1 Peter 3:18-23 by chance?

 

[Timtofly]

You seem pretty certain that these ten kings represent a ten nation coalition. Have you considered that these ten kings could be simply generals of the same nation? Or perhaps governors or some other such title?

I accept they will be the only nations left on earth at the Second Coming and after the final harvest of all the souls currently alive.

 

[Timtofly]

You're proving my point. Yes, Satan is released only once, but it is mentioned three times. This proves that Revelation repeats itself. It's not simply one long story.

The only mention is in chapter 20. The other two passages do not claim Satan was released.

 

[Freedm]

The only mention is in chapter 20. The other two passages do not claim Satan was released.

Perhaps that example is not obvious enough. How about "It is done".

Revelation 16:17
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done”.

How do you explain that within the concept of linear story telling?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Preterism certainly does not "hinge nearly entirely on the single word near". Preterism is actually very clearly supported by the book of Revelation. When you realize how symbolic it is, the symbols are very easily applied to past events and it all lines up so beautifully that it can not be ignored. Of course if you read Revelation with the assumption that it's all still future, then it's impossible to see.

As for Daniel's chapter 8 prophesy, it was fulfilled through the events of Antiochus Epiphanes and the Macabees. This again can be very easily verified and clearly demonstrated when you lay the prophesy side by side with actual history. The only part of Daniel's visions that I find somewhat difficult to apply is his vision of the fourth beast. There are a number of possible fulfillments there.

OK what else does Preterism stand on? Daniels book is often thought as applying to the end times just as easily as Nero's prescecution. In fact, using Occam's razor, it takes less assumptions to fit into premillenial views as opposed to preterist views. You have to do a lot more hand waving of things being symbolic to suggest the things written in Daniel, in the Olivet Discourse, and the book of Revelation all fit within the confines of the attack on Israel and destruction of the temple in AD 70. Many more Jews died in the holocaust than in the Nero persecutions, and between World War I and II and the tens of thosands of nuclear warheads we have posed for WWIII, it is hard to fathom that the worst the world has ever seen all happened in AD 70. Once you go down the road of symbolism, I wind up more in the Idealism camp than the preterism camp, at least thus far in my studies of eschatology, which admittedly are far from over.

 

[BuildingApologetics]

Do you mean 1 Peter 3:18-23 by chance?

No lol I mistyped. 2 Peter 3:10-13

 

[Freedm]

OK what else does Preterism stand on? Daniels book is often thought as applying to the end times just as easily as Nero's prescecution. In fact, using Occam's razor, it takes less assumptions to fit into premillenial views as opposed to preterist views. You have to do a lot more hand waving of things being symbolic to suggest the things written in Daniel, in the Olivet Discourse, and the book of Revelation all fit within the confines of the attack on Israel and destruction of the temple in AD 70. Many more Jews died in the holocaust than in the Nero persecutions, and between World War I and II and the tens of thosands of nuclear warheads we have posed for WWIII, it is hard to fathom that the worst the world has ever seen all happened in AD 70. Once you go down the road of symbolism, I wind up more in the Idealism camp than the preterism camp, at least thus far in my studies of eschatology, which admittedly are far from over.

The fact that Jesus warned those in Judea to flee to the mountains, proves that he's referring to a local event, not a world wide event. And the fact that he said "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that the end is near" tells us that he was referring not to the end of the world, but the end of something local, or perhaps spiritual. And the fact that Jesus said "some of you standing here will not see death before I come again" proves that he came again in the first century. I'm not sure what "hand waving" needs to occur to understand these things.

As for the worst time in history, you must not have read the Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus. Did you know that tens of thousands of corpses laid unburied and rotting in the streets, and that mothers resorted to eating their own babies?

 

[Timtofly]

You believe events are prophesied that will never actually happen?

The future has not happened. Solomon did not have to forsake God and split the kingdom in two. Israel did not have to play the harlot. The church does not have to play the harlot, and remain in apostasy. God still promises to bless those, who repent, turn from wickedness, pray and seek God's face. The church does not have to be defeated by Satan.

Daniel and John gave the worse case scenario. Hiding one's face in the sand and claiming it was all over in the first century, does not help the church turn from wickedness.

 

[Timtofly]

2 Thess 2 speaks of events in our past. I'm not 100% sure who the man of lawlessness was (it was probably either Eleazar ben Simon or Simon Bar Giora) but the rebellion was that of the zealots rebelling against Rome. This is what triggered the war and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I don't think we have enough historical details to pin down everything described in that chapter, but we know this man proclaimed himself God in the temple so this must have happened before the temple was destroyed.

The one who was holding him back was most likely Ananus ben Ananus, the chief priest who negotiated with Rome, delaying the rebellion. Josephus indeed believed that the death of Ananus was the catalyst that opened the doors to destruction.
I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews 4.5.2)

2 Thess 2 also reveals that the man of lawlessness works in accordance with Satan the great deceiver in that he also deceives those he leads. And it was in fact his deception of the Idumeans that allowed him to take control of the city as he convinced them that Ananus was planning to betray Jerusalem to the Romans. This was a lie that led to the slaughter of thousands of innocent people.

However, it was resolved to call in the Idumeans; so they wrote a short letter to this effect: That Ananus had imposed on the people, and was betraying their metropolis to the Romans; that they themselves had revolted from the rest, and were in custody in the temple, on account of the preservation of their liberty; that there was but a small time left wherein they might hope for their deliverance; and that unless they would come immediately to their assistance, they should themselves be soon in the power of Artanus, and the city would be in the power of the Romans. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews 4.4.1)

Why do you deflect the NT to Judaism? The warnings in the NT are for the whole church age. The church is going the way of those Religious Jews in the first century. That is the worse case scenario, yet every one seems to be welcoming Satan with open arms.

 

[Timtofly]

You don't find it significant that Jesus made a point of Jerusalem killing the prophets and those sent to her?

Jesus Christ will deal with Jerusalem. The church is only supposed to gather a harvest of lost souls and make disciples, who in turn do the same thing.

 

[Freedm]

No lol I mistyped. 2 Peter 3:10-13

Ah. Yes, the passing away of heaven and earth, and the new heaven and earth. It turns out that heaven and earth were represented by the temple, and when that temple was burned up we received a new temple wherein dwelleth righteousness and that is the temple of our bodies, wherein dwelleth Jesus.

As you can see in your scripture quote, the old temple was to be burned up on the day of judgment, which was indeed 70 AD.

Josephus actually makes it clear that the design of the temple and the tent tabernacle was divided into three parts; the land, the sea and heaven. That is the outer court, the inner court and the holy of holies.

"...for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were everyone made in way of imitation and representation of the universe. When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the seas, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men" (Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews 3.7.7)

The "heaven and earth" as symbols of course only makes sense in light of other scriptures which tell us which tell us that the earth remains forever.

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.

So to continue to believe that the literal earth will be burned up, is to deny the two verses above because how can the earth remain forever, but also pass away? Clearly to take all these verses literally, is misunderstanding.

 

[Timtofly]

No, the futurist are lying and doing a great disservice in misinterpreting Sacred Scripture. The people John wrote to experienced it all though he wrote in symbology. John's last book and indeed the whole of Scripture was not written to us in anyway, shape, or form while they are for us.

So you are not the church? You just cheer the church on with symbolism?

 

[Freedm]

Why do you deflect the NT to Judaism? The warnings in the NT are for the whole church age. The church is going the way of those Religious Jews in the first century. That is the worse case scenario, yet every one seems to be welcoming Satan with open arms.

I'm not sure what you're accusing me of.

 

[Freedm]

Jesus Christ will deal with Jerusalem. The church is only supposed to gather a harvest of lost souls and make disciples, who in turn do the same thing.

So you don't believe Jesus Christ dealt with Jerusalem in 70 AD? The city and the temple and the Jewish religious practices were wiped out. What more are you expecting?