"Man cannot Save Himself" Bible Verses

[Zen_Woof]

Bullied? But that is due to her bad karma. Not due to her forefather's sin.

 

[TooCurious]

So do you think human kind is sinless, Can you point even a single person in this world who can claim that he is 100% pure?



Oh I don't know you believe that a Dog or Cat would sin! I am sorry!!

Now I know you're not reading anything I say, and that makes me sad, because I've put genuine effort into my responses here, and when you just disregard them and reply with complete non sequiturs instead, it makes me feel like I'm expending my effort pointlessly.

Regardless, I'm going to respond to what you wrote.

I don't subscribe to the concept of "sin." I certainly believe that people do things that I would categorize as "wrong" or "bad." However, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to "sin" is to go against God, and I don't believe in God, therefore the concept of "sin," per se, is meaningless to me. Certainly I don't think that anyone is "100% pure," if by that you mean has never done anything "bad" or harmful to others.

Your remark about cats and dogs confuses me. Animals, so far as we know, do not subscribe to our moral understanding, and modern philosophical thought would not consider them moral agents. Even if one does believe in "sin," the concept would not be applicable to a being, such as an animal, without the understanding to choose between right and wrong.

 

[Karma2Grace]

Now I know you're not reading anything I say, and that makes me sad, because I've put genuine effort into my responses here, and when you just disregard them and reply with complete non sequiturs instead, it makes me feel like I'm expending my effort pointlessly.

Regardless, I'm going to respond to what you wrote.

I don't subscribe to the concept of "sin." I certainly believe that people do things that I would categorize as "wrong" or "bad." However, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to "sin" is to go against God, and I don't believe in God, therefore the concept of "sin," per se, is meaningless to me. Certainly I don't think that anyone is "100% pure," if by that you mean has never done anything "bad" or harmful to others.

Your remark about cats and dogs confuses me. Animals, so far as we know, do not subscribe to our moral understanding, and modern philosophical thought would not consider them moral agents. Even if one does believe in "sin," the concept would not be applicable to a being, such as an animal, without the understanding to choose between right and wrong.

Do you know what is reincarnation and how it works in hinduiesm?

 

[dlamberth]

First of all , Man is not devine (contrary to Patheistic claims), Every one knows this as true in our own heart and bible affirms the truth

I think a better understanding about what your arguing against need to be understood better.

Try changing the focus from "man is Divine" to the "Divine can be found with in". And than start by looking at how the Divine is experienced in the exploration between the difference of the two different concepts.

For me, I start with the Question: Where do we go to experience God? Somewhere outside of ourselves? Nope! As a host of Christian saints, mystics and sages have shown, in opening up to the experience of God, we discover the Divine within.

Please note my emphasis on the experience of God and in this discussion, please look at and explore that aspect of the Divine and where one spiritually look such that the experience of God can be found.




.

 

[rahul_sharma]

Do you know what is reincarnation and how it works in hinduiesm?

Do you know?

Do you even know spelling of Hinduism?

 

[TooCurious]

Do you know what is reincarnation and how it works in hinduiesm?

Generally. However, I was talking about the concept of Original Sin in Christian doctrine. Is there any chance of you responding to what I actually say?

 

[Saraswati-Devi]

Generally. However, I was talking about the concept of Original Sin in Christian doctrine. Is there any chance of you responding to what I actually say?

I'm still waiting too....

 

[Vayu]

I'm still waiting too....

You guys will be waiting a long time.

This Knowthetruth character or k2g as she is known here is an ex dalit from india. I have defeated her at her own game at the hindunet. I am still waiting for her to answer a lot of questions. She finally ran away from there and hid behind other ids. Now she is spreading her garbage here where it belongs. I am happy that she is here at these forums. At least the hindunet forums are clean for a few days since this dalit moved over here.

pagan

 

[Saraswati-Devi]

You guys will be waiting a long time.

This Knowthetruth character or k2g as she is known here is an ex dalit from india. I have defeated her at her own game at the hindunet. I am still waiting for her to answer a lot of questions. She finally ran away from there and hid behind other ids. Now she is spreading her garbage here where it belongs. I am happy that she is here at these forums. At least the hindunet forums are clean for a few days since this dalit moved over here.

pagan

This type of actions I've NEVER experienced here before... There's no reason to insult anyone or they're beliefs. And yes, this K2G is welcomed here, just as I was welcomed. Maybe this person can learn from the other Christians here who show us nothing but Love....

 

[Zen_Woof]

Isn't "dalit" a really derogatory term?



Metta,
ZW

 

[Vayu]

Isn't "dalit" a really derogatory term?



Metta,
ZW

is it? I don't know. I am not hindu or indian. But from her behaviour I assumed that she is a dalit.

 

[Karma2Grace]

Generally. However, I was talking about the concept of Original Sin in Christian doctrine. Is there any chance of you responding to what I actually say?

Yes we inherited the sinfull nature from Adam , Sinfull nature is diffrent from Sin.

You have compared the original sin with reincarnation, that is why I asked whether you know reincarnation or not?

 

[Fuzzy]

is it? I don't know. I am not hindu or indian. But from her behaviour I assumed that she is a dalit.

From the context I've seen the word used in, it seemed a rather negative adjective. A google search came back with "dalit" meaning "untouchable" or "low caste." I'm not up enough on Hindu culture to know how much of an insult that is.

 

[TooCurious]

Yes we inherited the sinfull nature from Adam , Sinfull nature is diffrent from Sin.

But both are predicated on the concept of "sin," and believing that such a thing exists. I don't, because to sin is to go against God, and I don't believe in God.

You have compared the original sin with reincarnation, that is why I asked whether you know reincarnation or not?

You were actually the one who brought reincarnation into the discussion we were having about original sin. Allow me to quote:

I said:

The doctrine of original sin never made sense to me, nor did the whole "sins of the fathers" policy. If *I* do something wrong, hold me responsible for it. If my father, or grandfather, or great-great-great-great grandfather does something wrong, hold *him* responsible for it. I had no part in it--especially if it happened before I was even born. I have no influence on or role in actions that were committed before I existed, and therefore I am not responsible for them and should not be held answerable for them. This just seems logical.

You said:

What if you are hold responsible for the sins you have commited in your last (?) birth? Does it make sense?

I then proceeded to answer you that, while I don't necessarily subscribe to the ideas of Karma and reincarnation, they make more sense to me than the doctrine of Original Sin.

Are we all on the same page now?

 

[Saraswati-Devi]

From the context I've seen the word used in, it seemed a rather negative adjective. A google search came back with "dalit" meaning "untouchable" or "low caste." I'm not up enough on Hindu culture to know how much of an insult that is.

Don't worry about it...

 

[Druweid]

Greetings!

Far be it from me to point out the innumerable inconsistencies with your assertion, but since I am apparently (by your definition) so far from "grace," then I guess it doesn't matter.

First of all , Man is not devine (contrary to Patheistic claims), Every one knows this as true in our own heart and bible affirms the truth

It is arrogant to imply that you know what is in the hearts of all people, i.e., "Every one knows..." The Bible affirms your truth, not mine. A part of my beliefs ARE Pantheistic, that every piece of the universe has a spark of the Divine, and I say that, quite honestly, from my heart. This does not mean I believe mankind is Divine unto him/herself, but that we are connected to the Divine. There is a difference.

Man is not divine, but a sinner (Romans 3:23).

Man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).

Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).

Man loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19). (etc., etc.)

Again, these are from your Bible, and does not apply to the beliefs of the entire world. In fact, it doesn't even apply to the majority of the world. Only about 33% of the world is Christian(http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html).

It is apparent that man cannot save himself,

Really? I'll get right on the phone with Mr. Tony Robbins, and let him know he's wasting his time.

But seriously, This is still based on Chrisitian beliefs, and has no foundation whatsoever outside of your own church.

I can challenge all the believers of pantheism and polytheism to comment about their salvation, I think every one agree that they are not saved (and they are trying) it simply proved that the nature of man is not divine!

Yes, I could comment on my salvation through Pantheism and Polytheism, but it would not matter. You, having ears, cannot hear, and your heart has been hardened. And at this point, you have proved absolutely nothing, other than you have your opinion. In fact, you have not yet presented a single statement that can maintain any form of objective validity.

Man cannot earn his salvation and God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness must include justice.

Where did this concept come from?? Justice, by definition, is impartial thus secular. The moment this "justice" is restricted (e.g., believers vs. non-believers, et al), it is not justice, it's simply application of religious decree.

Works (Good Karma) are from gratitude, not in order to earn salvation

This is based in assumption. If I perform a truly altruistic act, being a Pagan, what gratitude am I serving? Or are you saying that since I'm Pagan, I am incapable of altruism?

The grace of God is deepened by understanding these truths, and it is in this context that grace is taught in the New Testament. It is often contrasted to salvation by works. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works so that one can boast.”

Yet again (and again, and again), your trying to apply your beliefs to my life. It would be just as easy for me to sit here with any one of a number of self-help books and say "You must do this..." or "You must do that..." to correct the flaws in your life.

‘Salvation by works’ systems believes that men can pay for their errors or sins by doing good. These belief systems hold that good and evil balance one another out, somewhat like a scale; if you’re good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, then you will be saved.

Well, thank goodness! All this time I thought you were talking about me. None of my beliefs coincide with what you've just described. In fact, I can't think of much any Pantheist or Polytheist who follows what you've just descibed. I'm sorry, how does this apply to this topic? Or to me?

Jesus teaches that the only standard acceptable to God is absolute perfection. Everyone who has sinned falls short of this perfection. No amount of good works can make amends. Therefore it is impossible for any man to save himself!

I really believe that to give this post any amount of credibility, you will have to elaborate on what you mean by "saved." The only thing you've proven here is that I would make a very bad Christian, and surprise, surprise, I already knew that.

As far as the implication that I need to be saved from evil or damnation, that is your belief. I simply disagree; I was born right the first time and am doing quite well; my relationship with the Divine is rewarding and fulfilling; and I maintain values of honesty, unselfishness, loyalty, humility, and charity. If I am not "saved," then perhaps you and I are both better off.

Respectfully,
Druweid

 

[satay]

If I am not "saved," then perhaps you and I are both better off.

Respectfully,
Druweid

Great Post!

 

[Fuzzy]

Don't worry about it...

Fair enough.

Cookie?

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

You guys will be waiting a long time.

This Knowthetruth character or k2g as she is known here is an ex dalit from india. I have defeated her at her own game at the hindunet. I am still waiting for her to answer a lot of questions. She finally ran away from there and hid behind other ids. Now she is spreading her garbage here where it belongs. I am happy that she is here at these forums. At least the hindunet forums are clean for a few days since this dalit moved over here.

pagan

Lo Pagan - please dont abuse the word dalit. They are also humans like us. Poor people, they have been given a raw deal by the priestly community in the past. Let us not repeat history.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

First of all , Man is not devine (contrary to Patheistic claims), Every one knows this as true in our own heart and bible affirms the truth





Man is not divine, but a sinner (Romans 3:23).

Man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).

Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).

Man loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

Man is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).

Man is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).

Man is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).

Man is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).



It is apparent that man cannot save himself, I can challenge all the believers of pantheism and polytheism to comment about their salvation, I think every one agree that they are not saved (and they are trying) it simply proved that the nature of man is not divine!



Man cannot earn his salvation and God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness must include justice. Works (Good Karma) are from gratitude, not in order to earn salvation The grace of God is deepened by understanding these truths, and it is in this context that grace is taught in the New Testament. It is often contrasted to salvation by works. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works so that one can boast.” ‘Salvation by works’ systems believes that men can pay for their errors or sins by doing good. These belief systems hold that good and evil balance one another out, somewhat like a scale; if you’re good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, then you will be saved. Jesus teaches that the only standard acceptable to God is absolute perfection. Everyone who has sinned falls short of this perfection. No amount of good works can make amends. Therefore it is impossible for any man to save himself!

Well first of all you can't prove pantheistic beliefs wrong can you? Do you have anything to spit out except scipture? Explain that we are made so called in the image of god?

God isn't going to save me. God isn't going to get me a good job...God isn't going to do anything for me that my will and intellect can't do for myself.

If men can't understand spiritual things explain the Dalai Lama?

How do you explain science?

You can't.

Cut the holier than thou attitude.