Magnetic Bracelets

[Subduction Zone]

This "fraud" that preys upon those with pain has brought pain relief to thousands. Many who come back to buy other products or replace one that has broken or worn out. To them, it is well worth the money...thus, not a fraud.

Only in their minds. The problem is that they have been fooled. The companies do not have valid evidence for their claims. That is why they go the back door route. It is very hard to sue a multi-level marketing company. You can't sue the number one source, the small scale resellers that got taken in on a Ponzi scheme to sell an illicit product.

No matter how much you want this to be snake oil or the power of the human mind, it works and works repeatedly for many. Study study study.....the results won't change my own personal experience which is still going after a decade and a half of reduced occurrence and reduced severity of my migraines and expedited relief of my golfers elbow.
Surprise.... some things are not explained by the new witchcraft of "empirical science" which is used to deter the masses from the possibility of relief from pain.

Now you have made a positive claim. You need to show that it works. Personal anecdotes are not valid evidence for such claims since people are easily fooled. Do you remember the Power Band? A very similar claim to this that was eventually outed.

Why would you fight so hard to void something that may bring beneficial results to someone you don't even know?
Why does it offend you so much?
Why, when the purchaser can return the item for a full refund if it doesn't give them the expected relief, call it a fraud?
Why, when so many have admitted that it works for them, do you continue to call it a fake?

Because I know that it is a fraud. That people fool themselves does not mean that it works. In fact many people would rather believe that something works than go to a real doctor at times. I know that I am reluctant to go to a real doctor at times and I know how they help people with real medicine that has been properly tested. I recently had some hearing loss that I thought was due to a cold and it turned out to be related to high blood pressure. If I got a magnet and wore it around my head I might have been able to convince myself that I was getting better. When the inevitable stroke or heart attack came it would have been too late. Companies like Nikken do hurt people. And often at more than one level. They use bogus multi-level marketing to get people to sell their products for them and take most of the risk. The company itself is all but impossible to sue since it is not U.S. based and no lawyer is going to try to squeeze some poor fool working out of the basement of his mother's house. There would be no money in it.

If you want to claim these work then you need to find valid evidence that supports your claims, otherwise it is much much more likely that you are hurting people on several levels by advocating for this company. It is not a Christian thing to do.

 

[JacksBratt]

Wrong again, only ancient books with magic in them. That is not bias. You treat all other ancient books with magic in them in the same way. Not only that I do not accept modern books with magic in them either. You do not seem to realize the error that you are making.

You have no right to state how I treat the contents of ancient books. However, you have made it quite clear how you treat them.

No, I am not. It is pretty obvious when a book has magic in it. Any wondrous tale of miracles, things appearing out of nowhere, talking animals, whether foxes and pigs or snakes and donkeys that are not supported by evidence all qualify as "magic".

It is only obvious to you. You alone are judging which events are magic. It is magic, to you, because it falls outside of the "provable by science" test or just doesn't seem "possible" to you.

But white men could show that what they were doing was not magic. It was clearly not magic. They could meet their burden of proof to the Natives. You can't meet your burden of proof here.

But God did show that it was not magic. He is the creator. Jesus was God. So............no magic.

Supernatural God preforming what is simple to Him but a miracle to us.

If two white men were to communicate using a written note and one native observed it. Then the white men left without explaining it............the native could have been treated like he had no "burden of proof" when he explained it to other natives. Even if the white men explained it to him. If he had natives in the tribe with the same mindset as you have........it would have been magic and unexplainable and therefore his story would have been a fairy tale.

No, the more we learn the more obvious that it becomes that the stories in the Bible are just stories. Again, the burden of proof is upon those making the claim that the Bible or other ancient books are valid. Don't come crying to me and claim prejudice because you can't meet your burden of proof.

No one is going to come crying to you, that is for sure. You have absolutely no way of proving that things we now see as magic or supernatural will some day be possible with new technology. Everything from growing new limbs, healing paraplegics, curing Alzheimer disease and cystic fibrosis, teleportation, recording thoughts............you cannot say this will never happen.

As for the events of the Bible that you cannot believe, I believe they are 100% true. I cannot prove that they are but you cannot prove that they are not.

Why don't you believe the countless other magical ancient tomes out there? I see that you ran away from the fact that you are guilty of special pleading.

What other magical tomes?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have no right to state how I treat the contents of ancient books. However, you have made it quite clear how you treat them.

Wrong, I have just as much right, perhaps more, than you do, since you brought up the subject. You are only angry because I am consistent in my treating of those ancient tomes.

It is only obvious to you. You alone are judging which events are magic. It is magic, to you, because it falls outside of the "provable by science" test or just doesn't seem "possible" to you.

No, it is magic because the actions done fit the definition of "magic":
"
Full Definition of magic

1. 1a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forcesb : magic rites or incantations
   
   
2. 2a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural sourceb : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment
   
   
3. 3: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magic

The Bible describes your god using spoken spells to create life. You need to reread Genesis with this definition in mind.

But God did show that it was not magic. He is the creator. Jesus was God. So............no magic.

Supernatural God preforming what is simple to Him but a miracle to us.

Sorry, now you are guilty of what you accused me of.

If two white men were to communicate using a written note and one native observed it. Then the white men left without explaining it............the native could have been treated like he had no "burden of proof" when he explained it to other natives. Even if the white men explained it to him. If he had natives in the tribe with the same mindset as you have........it would have been magic and unexplainable and therefore his story would have been a fairy tale.

Now you are clutching at straws. Your example was a repeatable observable example. If you take that away it becomes a rather useless analogy. Try again.

No one is going to come crying to you, that is for sure. You have absolutely no way of proving that things we now see as magic or supernatural will some day be possible with new technology. Everything from growing new limbs, healing paraplegics, curing Alzheimer disease and cystic fibrosis, teleportation, recording thoughts............you cannot say this will never happen.

Yes, things may change in the future. But it you want to make a positive claim the burden of proof is upon you. Until then there is more than enough evidence to conclude that these are a fraud foisted on ignorant suffering people.

As for the events of the Bible that you cannot believe, I believe they are 100% true. I cannot prove that they are but you cannot prove that they are not.

But many of them have shown to be wrong. The creation story, the Flood story, I could go on. Actually I can prove that there was no flood unless you believe in a lying god. Most Christians do not.

What other magical tomes?

The Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, the list goes on and on.[/QUOTE]

 

[JacksBratt]

Only in their minds. The problem is that they have been fooled. The companies do not have valid evidence for their claims. That is why they go the back door route. It is very hard to sue a multi-level marketing company. You can't sue the number one source, the small scale resellers that got taken in on a Ponzi scheme to sell an illicit product.

What is the "back door route"?

It was not a multi level market. I got a % on what I sold. There was no pressure to sell and I had no pressure to recruit new sales people.

Let me ask you. In these studies, do you think that they told the people "these are magnets and they will stop the pain" then gave them products that may or may not have been magnetic? If so, what if a person like yourself was in the study. Since you adamantly detest the concept, you would psychologically be biased and neither of the products would work. Hence your results would skew the data and show as evidence to the fact that they do not work.
Just the mention of the fact that it may work may increase your blood pressure and cause you to have an even more painful headache.

In my opinion, it would be impossible to test whether this works or not. However, thousands of people swear by them.
Who cares if it is magnets or placebo effect? These people paid for relief by wearing a necklace or a bracelet or whatever. They have no pain. They got what they paid for.........If it did nothing, they return it for a refund....nobody is being ripped off.

Your the one being fooled. You are so upset that other people believe this. Yet, your outrage for the concept is affecting nobody but yourself.

Now you have made a positive claim. You need to show that it works. Personal anecdotes are not valid evidence for such claims since people are easily fooled. Do you remember the Power Band? A very similar claim to this that was eventually outed.

What do you mean "you need to show that it works"? Is this an "ah ha, gotcha now" moment for you?

I put it on and wear it every day. My migraines are far less often and far less severe. The necklace works....... I have no more to prove to you about my claim than that. Unless you can prove that my migraines are no less severe and happen in the same frequency.

Because I know that it is a fraud.

IF the people have no more pain and don't return the item, they got what they paid for and will tell you that it works. The condition of unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities is not met.
There is no fraud. You know nothing.

Fraud
frôd/
noun
noun: fraud; plural noun: frauds
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
"he was convicted of fraud"

a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

That people fool themselves does not mean that it works.

How do you know that the people are fooling themselves? It is pointless. They put it on, their pain goes away, they are happy. You cannot win that in a court. You cannot say " I know your honor, my client is fooling themselves, they are being defrauded, they are actually still in pain, they just don't know it".... Good luck.

In fact many people would rather believe that something works than go to a real doctor at times. I know that I am reluctant to go to a real doctor at times and I know how they help people with real medicine that has been properly tested.

Are you suggesting that all these people want it to work due to their fear of real doctors, now? Really?

I recently had some hearing loss that I thought was due to a cold and it turned out to be related to high blood pressure. If I got a magnet and wore it around my head I might have been able to convince myself that I was getting better.

First of all, you would have to check and see if regaining hearing loss is even one of the benefits of wearing a magnetic anything. Second, you would not have to convince yourself of anything. You would wear the device, if your hearing got better you would be so happy that you wouldn't take it off.

When the inevitable stroke or heart attack came it would have been too late. Companies like Nikken do hurt people. And often at more than one level. They use bogus multi-level marketing to get people to sell their products for them and take most of the risk. The company itself is all but impossible to sue since it is not U.S. based and no lawyer is going to try to squeeze some poor fool working out of the basement of his mother's house. There would be no money in it.

I'm pretty sure that Nikken would ensure that you are duly recommended to seek professional opinion for any ailment. It's common small print on everything from a skipping rope to nasal spray. We even put "not a toy" on plastic bags and "not to be taken internally" on shampoo. Having said that.....
It is never good to self diagnose anything. Most people that I sold items to had already exhausted the treatment of a health professional. In most cases, that I sold items to people for, it sped up healing or, as in my case, reduced the symptom or ailment and the amount of medications that are required, if any.

If you want to claim these work then you need to find valid evidence that supports your claims, otherwise it is much much more likely that you are hurting people on several levels by advocating for this company. It is not a Christian thing to do.

Nah, I don't. I sell it to the person and they decide if it works. If they don't think so, I give their money back. If it does what they paid for it to do, they keep it. The proof only has to be good enough for the buyer, not you.

It would totally be unchristian for me to sell them if 1/ I thought it was just a scam and was trying to make money. 2/ I didn't give them the opportunity to try it out and make up their own mind as to if it works for them. 3/ I didn't sell it to them if I knew that there is a possibility that they can be free from pain.

Think about it..... a friend suffers from a certain pain. They have been to several doctors, jabbed with needles, injected with cortisone, chiropractors, physio, massage.........all with minimal affect. Now, I have a magnetic product. It would be very unchristian of me NOT to say "hey, why not try this, what can it hurt, if it doesn't work I'll give your money back"?

We should never let people suffer if we have a method that may help them, unless it is illegal.

You still haven't told me why this bothers you so. People paying for relief and receiving it, and you're the one upset.

 

[JacksBratt]

Wrong, I have just as much right, perhaps more, than you do, since you brought up the subject. You are only angry because I am consistent in my treating of those ancient tomes.

I don't recall that I ever stated how I view the other texts. You did. Since I never made an opinion, you cannot assume to know what my opinion is.

No, it is magic because the actions done fit the definition of "magic":
"
Full Definition of magic

1. 1a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forcesb : magic rites or incantations
   
   
2. 2a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural sourceb : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment
   
   
3. 3: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand"

So, for number 1a/ What charm of spell is presented or cast here and what supernatural power is projected or connected to it or them? Christ used no charm or spell. He simple told the man to walk, or told the demons to come out, or told Lazarus to "come forth".
2a/ What extraordinary power or influence is there other than the power of the creator? There, again was no spell. It was simply the creator fixing one of His creations. If you don't believe in God, then it becomes magic. However, if you don't believe in God or Jesus, who was this magician then? Then you have your magic.
3a/ Christ never produced "illusions" the wine was real and real good. The blind man saw, the dumb man spoke, the demons left. Not illusions.

The Bible describes your god using spoken spells to create life. You need to reread Genesis with this definition in mind.

Saying "let there be light" and light appeared is not a spell. It is a simple command of the physical realm by the creator of the physical realm. If you say "what is the weather, Siri." and your phone gives you the weather, is that a spell spoken to your iPhone? No, it's a command given to a created device.

Sorry, now you are guilty of what you accused me of.

??

Now you are clutching at straws. Your example was a repeatable observable example. If you take that away it becomes a rather useless analogy. Try again.

It was not repeatable and observable for the native trying to explain it to his tribe after the men were gone.... you try again.

Yes, things may change in the future. But it you want to make a positive claim the burden of proof is upon you. Until then there is more than enough evidence to conclude that these are a fraud foisted on ignorant suffering people.

I'm confused, is this a discussion on Christs miracles or the magnetic products. If the magnets..... the people are no longer suffering therefore they are not as ignorant as someone refusing to use something that works.

But many of them have shown to be wrong. The creation story, the Flood story, I could go on. Actually I can prove that there was no flood unless you believe in a lying god. Most Christians do not.

When it comes to believing the science produced by man or the Bible, I will take the bible any day.

Incidentally:

Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard

from:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/ev...t-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533
about Robert Ballard:
In 1965, Ballard graduated from the University of California, Santa Barbara, earning undergraduate degrees in chemistry and geology. While a student in Santa Barbara, California, he joined Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity, and also completed the US Army's ROTC program, giving him an Army officer's commission in Army Intelligence. His first graduate degree (MS, 1966) was in geophysics from the University of Hawaii's Institute of Geophysics where he trained porpoises and whales.

By the way, I'm not stating that this guy sews it all up. I'm just saying you can find evidence for anything if you want to. Like I said, the bible trumps any man made theory.

The Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, the list goes on and on.

How do you know if I believe or don't believe these? I have never stated if I do or don't. You just randomly asked me why I don't believe.

What "special pleading" did I run from?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What is the "back door route"?

Multi level marketing. The normal route for goods is to go through a retailer. They can do it much more efficiently. They also are far more reputable. If a store sells a bad product they will almost always stand behind it. In fact they are apt to be sued if they don't. Your bottom tier multi level marketer won't have the resources to cover themselves if they screw up this way.

It was not a multi level market. I got a % on what I sold. There was no pressure to sell and I had no pressure to recruit new sales people.

That is not what I have seen of Nikken.

Let me ask you. In these studies, do you think that they told the people "these are magnets and they will stop the pain" then gave them products that may or may not have been magnetic? If so, what if a person like yourself was in the study. Since you adamantly detest the concept, you would psychologically be biased and neither of the products would work. Hence your results would skew the data and show as evidence to the fact that they do not work.
Just the mention of the fact that it may work may increase your blood pressure and cause you to have an even more painful headache.

That is not how a double blind study is done. The person in the study only knows that they may or may not receive a medication of some sort. Neither does the person that gives them the "medicine". If you have no idea of what a double blind study is you really really need to learn if you are going to be dabbling in this sort of nonsense.

In my opinion, it would be impossible to test whether this works or not. However, thousands of people swear by them.
Who cares if it is magnets or placebo effect? These people paid for relief by wearing a necklace or a bracelet or whatever. They have no pain. They got what they paid for.........If it did nothing, they return it for a refund....nobody is being ripped off.

They still have pain, at least most do, they merely do not notice it as much. And pain can be a sign to go to the doctor. If the person believes that he is treating himself he may end up harming himself in the long run. And if you can't test your product then it cannot make any claims as to "curing" people.

Your the one being fooled. You are so upset that other people believe this. Yet, your outrage for the concept is affecting nobody but yourself.

No, people are being hurt by this quack product. Unlike you I have compassion for others.

What do you mean "you need to show that it works"? Is this an "ah ha, gotcha now" moment for you?

No, that is always the way that medicine has worked ever since modern medicine was developed. There are countless quacks out there and this attitude protects people from harm.

I put it on and wear it every day. My migraines are far less often and far less severe. The necklace works....... I have no more to prove to you about my claim than that. Unless you can prove that my migraines are no less severe and happen in the same frequency.

Anecdotes are not evidence. Try again. They only work because you have convinced yourself that they work. The upper management at Nikken are not total idiots. They know that if they could find support that their products actually work they would have a huge increase in sales. The simple fact is that they do not work. If they worked as you claimed they would pass various tests.

IF the people have no more pain and don't return the item, they got what they paid for and will tell you that it works. The condition of unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities is not met.
There is no fraud. You know nothing.

Wrong again. People fool themselves all of the time. They also will sometimes feel shame if the product does not work for them.

Fraud
frôd/
noun
noun: fraud; plural noun: frauds
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
"he was convicted of fraud"

a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.



How do you know that the people are fooling themselves? It is pointless. They put it on, their pain goes away, they are happy. You cannot win that in a court. You cannot say " I know your honor, my client is fooling themselves, they are being defrauded, they are actually still in pain, they just don't know it".... Good luck.

Because the product cannot pass a double blind study. You were bought a product that took advantage of your gullibility. Again, if they could do so they would have published the results long long ago.

Are you suggesting that all these people want it to work due to their fear of real doctors, now? Really?

Now please, a little honesty on your part would be appreciated. People fool themselves for all sorts of reasons.

First of all, you would have to check and see if regaining hearing loss is even one of the benefits of wearing a magnetic anything. Second, you would not have to convince yourself of anything. You would wear the device, if your hearing got better you would be so happy that you wouldn't take it off.

No, first of all you company has to pass actual studies. Until then it is worthless.

I'm pretty sure that Nikken would ensure that you are duly recommended to seek professional opinion for any ailment. It's common small print on everything from a skipping rope to nasal spray. We even put "not a toy" on plastic bags and "not to be taken internally" on shampoo. Having said that.....
It is never good to self diagnose anything. Most people that I sold items to had already exhausted the treatment of a health professional. In most cases, that I sold items to people for, it sped up healing or, as in my case, reduced the symptom or ailment and the amount of medications that are required, if any.

There is no "cure all". By making the claim of all of the supposed things that they cure should tell you that they are a fraud right from the start. I thought that there was another cause for my hearing loss. The doctor was terribly concerned with that, she saw that I had blood pressure problems that had to be treated first. That there was a connection was happenstance. I did not know that hearing loss could be a symptom of high blood pressure. I found out after the fact. Until Nikken demonstrate that they can treat anything at all they are simply a sugar pill that is horribly overpriced.

Nah, I don't. I sell it to the person and they decide if it works. If they don't think so, I give their money back. If it does what they paid for it to do, they keep it. The proof only has to be good enough for the buyer, not you.

No, because of people's inability to self diagnose there are laws that protect them. If a person is selling a product for a cure it is the duty of the seller to prove his claims. Now granted, people that are not gullible will be asking for their money back. Does that mean that it is okay to fleece gullible people?

It would totally be unchristian for me to sell them if 1/ I thought it was just a scam and was trying to make money. 2/ I didn't give them the opportunity to try it out and make up their own mind as to if it works for them. 3/ I didn't sell it to them if I knew that there is a possibility that they can be free from pain.

And it is unchristian to sell a product that cannot prove its claims. Your gullibility is not an excuse. You are protected only because you are not a wealthy enough of a target.

Think about it..... a friend suffers from a certain pain. They have been to several doctors, jabbed with needles, injected with cortisone, chiropractors, physio, massage.........all with minimal affect. Now, I have a magnetic product. It would be very unchristian of me NOT to say "hey, why not try this, what can it hurt, if it doesn't work I'll give your money back"?

Again, just because they are gullible it is not okay to take advantage of them.

We should never let people suffer if we have a method that may help them, unless it is illegal.

And what Nikken does is illegal:

"On April 17, 1996, the FDA's Buffalo, NY, regional office sent a warning letter to William W. Lampard, MD, of Lakewood, NY, notifying him that the magnetic products he was distributing, "including Magsteps and Kenkopillow" (Nikken) are medical devices, and that they are considered by the FDA to be "adulterated" and "misbranded." Lampard was told that it was his responsibility to meet the requirements of the law, and to take prompt action to correct the violations by his firm.

In NCAHF's view it is high time that the FDA took action against Nikken distributors. NCAHF has been receiving consumer inquiries about the alleged health and healing properties of Nikken magnets for over five years. In 1990, NCAHF alerted the FDA, FTC, and California food & drug anti-fraud officials of the Nikken company's magnetic healing promotions, but this is the first action against these products that we have heard about. On October 8, 1991, the California Board of Chiropractic Examiners sent a letter to all of its licensees notifying them that magnets (among other types of devices), were consid ered by the State Dept. of Health Services , to be "new devices," and that to represent them as safe and effective as an inducement for sale, or for administration, violated California law.

The lack of regulatory actions seems to be partially responsible for a proliferation of magnetic healing products. A Canadian dentist is promoting a magnet pad that claims to "produce a Pure Negative Magnetic Field equivalent to that of the earth 4,000 years ago." A Kentucky chiropractor has his own line of magnets which he uses for diagnosis, prescription and therapy. An Oklahoma MD hawks his line of magnets for pain, losing weight, at least a dozen specific diseases, food & chemical reactions, and "general systemtic treatment." "
http://www.ncahf.org/nl/1996/9-10.html

You still haven't told me why this bothers you so. People paying for relief and receiving it, and you're the one upset.

They are not paying for relief. They are falling prey to unscrupulous people that are abusing their gullibility. Once again, I care about my fellow human beings. Sure I could sell a product like that if I had wanted to. My morals are too strong to let me do that.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't recall that I ever stated how I view the other texts. You did. Since I never made an opinion, you cannot assume to know what my opinion is.

Enough nonsense.

So, for number 1a/ What charm of spell is presented or cast here and what supernatural power is projected or connected to it or them? Christ used no charm or spell. He simple told the man to walk, or told the demons to come out, or told Lazarus to "come forth".

Those would all far under "spoken incantations". And you have no idea what Jesus actually said.

2a/ What extraordinary power or influence is there other than the power of the creator? There, again was no spell. It was simply the creator fixing one of His creations. If you don't believe in God, then it becomes magic. However, if you don't believe in God or Jesus, who was this magician then? Then you have your magic.
3a/ Christ never produced "illusions" the wine was real and real good. The blind man saw, the dumb man spoke, the demons left. Not illusions.

Begging the question error, you are assuming that your creator exists in the first place. And yes, read Genesis again. Keep the concept of a spoken incantation in mind because that is exactly what Genesis describes. I should have stated that I was not using number 3. But it does fit both 1 and 2.

Saying "let there be light" and light appeared is not a spell. It is a simple command of the physical realm by the creator of the physical realm. If you say "what is the weather, Siri." and your phone gives you the weather, is that a spell spoken to your iPhone? No, it's a command given to a created device.

Of course it is. That is a spoken incantation. You are simply too tightly wrapped up in your myth. And bad analogy again. Siri is a natural product that is understood.

??




It was not repeatable and observable for the native trying to explain it to his tribe after the men were gone.... you try again.

Again, bad analogy. You are grasping at straws. You changed your story after I showed the flaw in it. That is not honest.

I'm confused, is this a discussion on Christs miracles or the magnetic products. If the magnets..... the people are no longer suffering therefore they are not as ignorant as someone refusing to use something that works.

You started this offshoot, not me. I stated a simple fact and you derailed the conversation trying to refute it.

When it comes to believing the science produced by man or the Bible, I will take the bible any day.

Incidentally:

Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard

from:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/ev...t-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533
about Robert Ballard:
In 1965, Ballard graduated from the University of California, Santa Barbara, earning undergraduate degrees in chemistry and geology. While a student in Santa Barbara, California, he joined Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity, and also completed the US Army's ROTC program, giving him an Army officer's commission in Army Intelligence. His first graduate degree (MS, 1966) was in geophysics from the University of Hawaii's Institute of Geophysics where he trained porpoises and whales.

By the way, I'm not stating that this guy sews it all up. I'm just saying you can find evidence for anything if you want to. Like I said, the bible trumps any man made theory.

Well that is good because he is an incompetent fool. In science if you want to make claims you need to ultimately show how they are supported by the scientific method. He has nothing.

How do you know if I believe or don't believe these? I have never stated if I do or don't. You just randomly asked me why I don't believe.

What "special pleading" did I run from?

Sorry they are mutually contradicting. You can't believe in all of them.

 

[JacksBratt]

Enough nonsense.



Those would all far under "spoken incantations". And you have no idea what Jesus actually said.



Begging the question error, you are assuming that your creator exists in the first place. And yes, read Genesis again. Keep the concept of a spoken incantation in mind because that is exactly what Genesis describes. I should have stated that I was not using number 3. But it does fit both 1 and 2.



Of course it is. That is a spoken incantation. You are simply too tightly wrapped up in your myth. And bad analogy again. Siri is a natural product that is understood.




Again, bad analogy. You are grasping at straws. You changed your story after I showed the flaw in it. That is not honest.



You started this offshoot, not me. I stated a simple fact and you derailed the conversation trying to refute it.



Well that is good because he is an incompetent fool. In science if you want to make claims you need to ultimately show how they are supported by the scientific method. He has nothing.



Sorry they are mutually contradicting. You can't believe in all of them.

Well, I'm fairly confident that you and I are set in our opinion on this. Since we are the only two perpetuating this thread, I see no reason for continuing. Good Day.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A double-blind, randomized study to assess the validity of applied kinesiology (AK) as a diagnostic tool and as a nonlocal proximity effect.
This is a flawed test.
Among other things the sample is very small and the presuppositions are not valid.

51 participants in 151 trials is sufficient to obtain a statistically (very) significant result (the chi-squared test used in the analysis takes the number of participants into account).

Which presuppositions do you think are invalid?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, I'm fairly confident that you and I are set in our opinion on this. Since we are the only two perpetuating this thread, I see no reason for continuing. Good Day.

A little patience on your part is in order. Also if you gave this matter some thought overnight you should realize that there is a burden on you to find out if what I claimed is correct. That means finding proper sources, not Nikken by the way, that can tell you whether or not my claims are correct. If you were just using this for yourself you could get away with ignorance. But as a Christian, and as a human being, you should realize that you have a responsibility to anyone that try to foist this off on that there are severe doubts about the product.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hi there.

So what's up with these magnetic bracelets?
Are they efficacious?
What are the consequences of having the iron in our blood passing through a magnetic field?

I would think it might help form blood clots.
Just passing by a magnet seems dangerous.
Evidently it's not but it amazing how many
factors are found down-the-road for heart
attacks and cancer.

 

[JacksBratt]

I would think it might help form blood clots.
Just passing by a magnet seems dangerous.
Evidently it's not but it amazing how many
factors are found down-the-road for heart
attacks and cancer.

Apparently, the iron in hemoglobin is not affected to that extent, or at all, by a magnetic field.

 

[Nephtali Roman-Reyes]

Hi there.

So what's up with these magnetic bracelets?

Are they efficacious?

What are the consequences of having the iron in our blood passing through a magnetic field?

I'll like to open this subject once more. I read almost all the responses in this thread and found that people use lack of evidence and no basis in personal experiences to disqualify a still debatable subject.
Suddenly, magnetism is becoming a new area of research. Now been tested to cure brain cancer. Nice subject to talk about again.
I started using a magnetic bracelet about two weeks ago. Through the pandemic I became very sluggish and dismotivated. I stop doing exercise completely. I decided to start training once more. I'm a 204 lbs 45 year old male. On a normal day now, I can do a start up set of push ups of 50-70 follow by more sets of 25.
Two weeks after I started using the bracelet, I pushed 90 push ups like I was doing 50. I've only push 90 push ups once in my life, I was in my early 20s and I was training and supplementing.
I cannot say that the bracelets are the culprit of this advanced performance move but it sure makes me wonder. I suffer from minor tingling in my hands and shoulders, and it hasn't gone away since I started using the bracelet but this tingling doesn't seem to bother me as much anymore.
Bring your own experiences and share them. I think this thread was reduce by potentially naysayers that support the big pharma industry which don't have patients as the first priority but profits. No big Corp will allow a non medical device to take their business. I'm sharing cause I feel so disgusted to those rejecting the dog condition as a placebo effect. You need to understand what a placebo effect is before talking about it. Most placebo effect is considered, the own body capability to fix what's damage and to prove that "an actual treatment didn't work" any better than the body itself.
If a dog with extreme arthritis starts running by using a magnetic collar, disregarding that as placebo is ignorant and deceitful.
Funny, how Jesus himself told the blind man to hold himself from telling the authorities because even then politics went beyond human charity.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'll like to open this subject once more. I read almost all the responses in this thread and found that people use lack of evidence and no basis in personal experiences to disqualify a still debatable subject.
Suddenly, magnetism is becoming a new area of research. Now been tested to cure brain cancer. Nice subject to talk about again.
I started using a magnetic bracelet about two weeks ago. Through the pandemic I became very sluggish and dismotivated. I stop doing exercise completely. I decided to start training once more. I'm a 204 lbs 45 year old male. On a normal day now, I can do a start up set of push ups of 50-70 follow by more sets of 25.
Two weeks after I started using the bracelet, I pushed 90 push ups like I was doing 50. I've only push 90 push ups once in my life, I was in my early 20s and I was training and supplementing.
I cannot say that the bracelets are the culprit of this advanced performance move but it sure makes me wonder. I suffer from minor tingling in my hands and shoulders, and it hasn't gone away since I started using the bracelet but this tingling doesn't seem to bother me as much anymore.
Bring your own experiences and share them. I think this thread was reduce by potentially naysayers that support the big pharma industry which don't have patients as the first priority but profits. No big Corp will allow a non medical device to take their business. I'm sharing cause I feel so disgusted to those rejecting the dog condition as a placebo effect. You need to understand what a placebo effect is before talking about it. Most placebo effect is considered, the own body capability to fix what's damage and to prove that "an actual treatment didn't work" any better than the body itself.
If a dog with extreme arthritis starts running by using a magnetic collar, disregarding that as placebo is ignorant and deceitful.
Funny, how Jesus himself told the blind man to hold himself from telling the authorities because even then politics went beyond human charity.

The question is, do you want to base your views on the most reliable data available or on personal anecdotes?

There is scientific evidence that powerful alternating magnetic fields can have some biological effects on cell metabolism - the brain cancer treatment is intended to work somewhat like traditional chemotherapies, by triggering cell death in the most actively metabolising cells (i.e. cancer cells), but in a more targeted way. Promising results in a single subject make it 'interesting', but until these results have been replicated in a significant number of patients, preferably in a randomised control trial, it's no more than that.

Even if your magnetic bracelet had powerful rotating magnets like those in the above picture (the brain cancer treatment prototype), you should not expect to notice significant effects beyond the weight strengthening your arm (although you might possibly benefit if you had wrist cancer - the jury's still out).

Every year, millions of people have MRI scans, spending up to 30 mins in a scanner with pulsed alternating magnetic fields up to 7 Tesla (most around 1.5T). No noticeable or significant biological effects have resulted.

The best neodymium magnets have a remanence of 1.5T, but the field falls away rapidly with distance. A wrist bracelet with the best available neodymium magnets, if you were to spin it at high speed around your wrist, would, at best, be like a very weak MRI scan of your wrist.

When exercising and training, your body will respond differently at different times, and your mental state is crucial in determining what you can achieve. From my own experience of training, your description of the results you got is not unusual; there's no reason to suppose it has anything to do with a magnetic bracelet.

Having said that, any regular trainer will tell you of the boost they get from trying a new piece of kit, so if you expect something to help your performance, it often will - for a while. This is a well-known psychological effect.

 

[chilehed]

So what's up with these magnetic bracelets?

Are they efficacious?

Absolutely! They're very effective at lightening the wallets of the gullible.

 

[loveofourlord]

I'll like to open this subject once more. I read almost all the responses in this thread and found that people use lack of evidence and no basis in personal experiences to disqualify a still debatable subject.
Suddenly, magnetism is becoming a new area of research. Now been tested to cure brain cancer. Nice subject to talk about again.
I started using a magnetic bracelet about two weeks ago. Through the pandemic I became very sluggish and dismotivated. I stop doing exercise completely. I decided to start training once more. I'm a 204 lbs 45 year old male. On a normal day now, I can do a start up set of push ups of 50-70 follow by more sets of 25.
Two weeks after I started using the bracelet, I pushed 90 push ups like I was doing 50. I've only push 90 push ups once in my life, I was in my early 20s and I was training and supplementing.
I cannot say that the bracelets are the culprit of this advanced performance move but it sure makes me wonder. I suffer from minor tingling in my hands and shoulders, and it hasn't gone away since I started using the bracelet but this tingling doesn't seem to bother me as much anymore.
Bring your own experiences and share them. I think this thread was reduce by potentially naysayers that support the big pharma industry which don't have patients as the first priority but profits. No big Corp will allow a non medical device to take their business. I'm sharing cause I feel so disgusted to those rejecting the dog condition as a placebo effect. You need to understand what a placebo effect is before talking about it. Most placebo effect is considered, the own body capability to fix what's damage and to prove that "an actual treatment didn't work" any better than the body itself.
If a dog with extreme arthritis starts running by using a magnetic collar, disregarding that as placebo is ignorant and deceitful.
Funny, how Jesus himself told the blind man to hold himself from telling the authorities because even then politics went beyond human charity.

The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

Placebo is just, "What would the body have done if we didn't do the treatment." I don't need to try something that has no way to actually work and is a ton of sharleton stuff to know it won't work.

Also there is another type of Placebo effect, pain and things that are not measurable and effects on the way you perceive things. IF you wear the bracelet and think your less exhausted you will still be but your more able to ignore it and push through it. There is no mechanism for it to work at all.

 

[Strathos]

An old AV thread necroed, I thought he was back for a minute.

 

[partinobodycular]

I would love to know the correlation between anti-vaxxers and pro-magneters. It wouldn't surprise me if the same people who distrust vaccines paradoxically trust magnets.

How people can avoid cognitive dissonance simply amazes me.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I would love to know the correlation between anti-vaxxers and pro-magneters. It wouldn't surprise me if the same people who distrust vaccines paradoxically trust magnets.

How people can avoid cognitive dissonance simply amazes me.

Those two topics have common underlying themes of distrust of what the state and experts say about them, uninformed beliefs about the effects each can have, and peddlers of misinformation for attention and profit.

 

[loveofourlord]

always funny how the people that distrust big pharma are willing to so readily believe some quack online with even less evidence then the medicine they hate.