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Lying for Religion

Resha Caner

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I certainly think that "weird things" happen to christians as well...I just don't think they happen because of the reasons that christians think they happen. I'm sure you don't think that a "weird thing" that happens to a Hindu happens because of Shiva...you probably have your own explanation for whatever it is they experienced.

Yes and no. There could be a basis for Shiva. After all, polymelia is a real thing, and someone who had it in ancient times certainly could have taken advantage of their situation, claiming they were a god. Or it could have stemmed from someone with uncommon abilities.

Have you ever noticed the Bible doesn't really say there are no other gods? Instead, it tends toward saying God is exceptional among other gods (Exodus 15:11), and that those claiming to be a god are demons (Deut 32:17). Yes, there are verses like Isaiah 44:6, but taking all such things together it seems the Bible is acknowledging there will be those who demonstrate uncommon abilities - who do amazing things - and raise themselves up as gods. One of them was likely named Shiva.

So, the only things I would dispute are basics, like Shiva being the uncreated creator.

Honestly, I don't find this a very convincing argument - for you to hold up something I know you don't believe. If you can't see a difference between Shiva and Jesus, I question your ability to discuss religious matters.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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I must apologize and rephrase the last paragraph in discussion. I do not so much know God 'exists'; I know God.
Ana the Ist said:
I don't see how you could "know" god exists in the same way you know you're a human male (something I can check at this very moment...yup, still there) or know that you're a citizen of the U.S...
No, you don't 'see' it. You never will as long as you deny and reject God. That is not a judgement or a condemnation on my part, either. It is simply the difference between us.

Ana the Ist said:
I would say you're right in that I don't have a connection to nothingness...I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at by that though.
Not a surprise, as you cannot 'see' how I know God (exists). You sort of 'know' me. You have communicated with me; heard my thoughts (so to speak); agreed and disagreed with various thoughts and concepts I present. So you have a connection to me. (Sort of.)

You do not have such a connection with my imaginary playmate. Nor can you. He's imaginary. This is analogous - not identical - to your non-connection with nothing.

Ana the Ist said:
You're certainly entitled to come to whatever conclusions you like about why I became an atheist. It would be hard to do without knowing me.
I really do not know. At this point is it has little value. The value it has is in recognizing an emotional decision cannot be overcome with reason and logic.

Ana the Ist said:
You wouldn't be the first christian to decide that most (or all) atheists believe what they do for emotional reasons... I think I understand that. Like most christians, your "connection to god" is mostly emotional...
This is called 'projection'.
Ana the Ist said:
I'll give you a chance to show me wrong though...is your "connection to god" more than emotional? Do you hear voices or see him? Or is your connection related mostly to a "feeling" you associate with god?
I'll pass on that one. My relationship with God is not for you to evaluate.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes and no. There could be a basis for Shiva. After all, polymelia is a real thing, and someone who had it in ancient times certainly could have taken advantage of their situation, claiming they were a god. Or it could have stemmed from someone with uncommon abilities.

Have you ever noticed the Bible doesn't really say there are no other gods? Instead, it tends toward saying God is exceptional among other gods (Exodus 15:11), and that those claiming to be a god are demons (Deut 32:17). Yes, there are verses like Isaiah 44:6, but taking all such things together it seems the Bible is acknowledging there will be those who demonstrate uncommon abilities - who do amazing things - and raise themselves up as gods. One of them was likely named Shiva.

So, the only things I would dispute are basics, like Shiva being the uncreated creator.

Honestly, I don't find this a very convincing argument - for you to hold up something I know you don't believe. If you can't see a difference between Shiva and Jesus, I question your ability to discuss religious matters.

And the Hindu might claim your god is just one of the lesser gods under Shiva (I've actually heard this claim).

I can see the difference between the two, it's the claim of Jesus being god or Shiva being god that are essentially the same claim. If that claim is too far fetched for you, we can replace Shiva with another god like Dionysus.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I must apologize and rephrase the last paragraph in discussion. I do not so much know God 'exists'; I know God.
No, you don't 'see' it. You never will as long as you deny and reject God. That is not a judgement or a condemnation on my part, either. It is simply the difference between us.

Not a surprise, as you cannot 'see' how I know God (exists). You sort of 'know' me. You have communicated with me; heard my thoughts (so to speak); agreed and disagreed with various thoughts and concepts I present. So you have a connection to me. (Sort of.)

You do not have such a connection with my imaginary playmate. Nor can you. He's imaginary. This is analogous - not identical - to your non-connection with nothing.

I really do not know. At this point is it has little value. The value it has is in recognizing an emotional decision cannot be overcome with reason and logic.

This is called 'projection'. I'll pass on that one. My relationship with God is not for you to evaluate.

Is the "imaginary friend" you're referring to here god? Or did you mean another imaginary friend?

I know it's called projection. There are so many christians on here that think atheists are simply angry at god or some such nonsense... they get called out on the projection so often i figured I'd actually explain the process of projection instead of just calling it projection.

Why the lack of desire to evaluate your relationship with god? There isn't anything I could possibly say that would change your mind about that relationship, is there? If there is, is it a relationship worth having?

You must realize how that looks, to make a claim and then resist any attempts to examine it. If I did that, what would you think?
 
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Davian

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I must apologize and rephrase the last paragraph in discussion. I do not so much know God 'exists'; I know God.
No, you don't 'see' it. You never will as long as you deny and reject God. That is not a judgement or a condemnation on my part, either. It is simply the difference between us.

Not a surprise, as you cannot 'see' how I know God (exists). You sort of 'know' me. You have communicated with me; heard my thoughts (so to speak); agreed and disagreed with various thoughts and concepts I present. So you have a connection to me. (Sort of.)

You do not have such a connection with my imaginary playmate. Nor can you. He's imaginary.
...

That would explain why your god does not "leave fingerprints", as you related to me earlier.
 
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When we listen to a testimonial witness (does not matter in what religion), we should learn how to understand it, instead of rejecting it as a lie. One is a positive attitude and the other is a negative one.
This is needed in all aspects of society -- nicely worded.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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That would explain why your god does not "leave fingerprints", as you related to me earlier.
Romans 8:18-30 CEV - A Wonderful Future for God’s People ...
A Wonderful Future for God’s People - I am sure that what we are suffering now cannot compare with the glory that will be shown to us. In fact, all creation is ...https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:...

God's Son Is Lord of Creation (1:15-18) - The IVP New ...
Creation itself contains all things . . . visible and invisible. ... shows that God's purpose for creation will ultimately be carried out (Rev 21:1—22:5). ...https://www.biblegateway.com/.../Gods-Son-Is-Lord-Creation

Romans 8:15-39 NIV;NASB;AMP;KJV;CEV - The Spirit you received ...
19 In fact, all creation is eagerly waiting for God to show who his children are. 20 ... which shows the close relation between the children and their father.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:...
 
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Colter

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This is needed in all aspects of society -- nicely worded.

The decided Atheists don't seek to find truth, they seek to find error, for them doubt has already become a religion deep in their hearts. Notice how they prey upon the heard, looking for the easier argument to quash? One may not be articulate enough, clever enough to see the intellectual hair splitting sophistries of doubt for what they are. The innocence of child like faith may not have ever encountered the evil paths of materialistic contemplation. The mind of the child of God seeks to correlate and unify all aspects of the findings of reality based on their preexisting faith endowments. The mind of the decided Atheist overlays the template of mechanistic philosophy onto each universe phenomenon. The absurdity of the pessimistic mind that makes such arguments of a purely mechanistic universe, is that they are apart form the universe in order to make such an observation. Atheist are in effect transcendent, super-natural beings, sons of God even, all while declaring that such cannot be the case.
 
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What if we're just talking person to person? Wouldn't it be worth lying to someone if it convinced him to accept Jesus? Isn't that sin worth saving someone's soul?
Sorry for the delayed response; I think integrity (rock) beats manipulating and cutting truth (scissors).

But it depends on the statement -- was it really a lie, or a mistake, or a personal view of something? Like a person who didn't grasp they couldn't lead everything.

I've seen times where devoted believers got conflicting messages, both earnestly convinced they'd heard from God. From an outside viewpoint, it was easy to see that both were fitting each person's circumstances, but were not meant to fit together as they'd presumed.

I remember times when God called individuals out of churches, and they kept feeling like it couldn't be God, because they liked the church and thought of it as the place God was working. But we all know He works throughout the Earth, and churches change when we least expect.

On salvation: A soul-saving is a long series of interactions and reasoning, where God works with someone over time, bringing multiple people and coincidences into the process. A person rarely leaps from disbelief to belief and devotion -- that does not seem authentic or beneficial.

If you suggested an Ethiopian restaurant to a friend, and they said they hate carbs and eating with their hands... but then someone else came a long and said, "They always offer forks" and the first person said, "Lets go!"

Did they really want to eat there? Or were they just trying to stay in sync with what others were doing.
And if they got there and no forks were offered, would they get fed up with the whole deal, and mistrust the friends?

Even the example of Jesus spontaneously calling fishermen to follow -- they were already Jews, growing up in a Jewish community, so they were not complete newbies. They probably hadn't had years of study or leadership.


The hawk story... we need to trust that each person lives out their faith in different ways. We might make decisions more sensibly, but some people really like personal confirmations, tips that solidify decisions, and things that brighten their days.

I have had those bird-type incidents often, but view them as God saying He's paying attention to my needs. "I'm there for you." Because I like to see unusual things in nature, it feels like God is blessing me with rare peeks. But I don't make decisions based on unusual occurrences.

I would guess that people who do have been praying and deliberating for a long time, and haven't mustered the gumption to take the leap.
the hawk itself perched on him. He took this as a sign he should take the job.
He had already retreated to reflect and pray over the decision. That was the reason for him being in a perchable position.
(Raptors like to be above, looking downward for prey.)

A lot of decisions and leadings from God are holistic -- we seek his guidance, ask for wisdom, research the facts, ask others for advice, experience a sense of peace or anxiety, consider who will impact, sometimes get guidance from God in ways we recognize... and then we need a tiny push.

The hawk should be a personal sign, that is not used to draw others into obligation. A preacher shouldn't say, "A hawk told me to go to Kenya, so now you should donate for my air fare." It was between him and God, how he made that decision and carried it out.

The story should just be a "That was cool," and we should chill and let them enjoy their quirky circumstance. Then if there are concrete problems with their decisions, talk to them about the facts, and let them quietly cherish their flightier parts of the decision.
 
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Resha Caner

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And the Hindu might claim your god is just one of the lesser gods under Shiva (I've actually heard this claim).

I understand that. If there is some person claiming to be a god, I'm sure they'll do everything they can to assert that claim. In the process of the attempt, they may do some impressive things that convince some people. It's sad that people would put there trust in such things, but I know it happens.

What you're expecting me to do ... and indeed many Christians do it ... is to say, "Shiva is not a god." or "Shiva doesn't exist." or "The things Shiva supposedly did never happened." I'm not one who says those things. While I may think Shiva a false god, a false god is still a type of god.

The point is that this approach indicates to me you've got it all backwards. I've used this example many times, and while it appears to be ineffective in bringing understanding, I can't think of a better one:

Your approach is like defining what a "father" is, and then trying to convince me my dad isn't a father because he doesn't meet your definition. That will never work because my dad embodies for me the definition of what a father is. I know my dad just like I know God (John 10:27) - not by creating a definition and then going in search of something to fulfill that definition, but because I encountered a being who, for me, embodies what it is to be God.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Of course I did not say that.

What I said is: When we listen to a testimonial witness (does not matter in what religion), we should learn how to understand it, instead of rejecting it as a lie. One is a positive attitude and the other is a negative one.

It isn't as if lying about miracles lacks precedent
 
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Davian

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Of course I did not say that.

What I said is: When we listen to a testimonial witness (does not matter in what religion), we should learn how to understand it, instead of rejecting it as a lie. One is a positive attitude and the other is a negative one.

Do you apply the same standard to those that testify that they have been abducted by aliens?
 
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Davian

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Romans 8:18-30 CEV - A Wonderful Future for God’s People ...
A Wonderful Future for God’s People - I am sure that what we are suffering now cannot compare with the glory that will be shown to us. In fact, all creation is ...https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:...

God's Son Is Lord of Creation (1:15-18) - The IVP New ...
Creation itself contains all things . . . visible and invisible. ... shows that God's purpose for creation will ultimately be carried out (Rev 21:1—22:5). ...https://www.biblegateway.com/.../Gods-Son-Is-Lord-Creation

Romans 8:15-39 NIV;NASB;AMP;KJV;CEV - The Spirit you received ...
19 In fact, all creation is eagerly waiting for God to show who his children are. 20 ... which shows the close relation between the children and their father.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:...

Is there a point to that mess?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Well I have had lots of spiritual experiences as a Christian; and I know not one of them is a lie. You just don't believe in God, so you assume based upon your belief, that we are lying. When in reality we speak the truth. See Have you ever asked yourself about the existence of God for examples of stuff God has done for me.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Ana the Ist said:
Is the "imaginary friend" you're referring to here god?
That is beneath you.
Ana the Ist said:
Or did you mean another imaginary friend?
Just for clarity, not 'another', as that concurs with your rather clumsy 'trap' above. It is an imaginary friend.
Ana the Ist said:
I know it's called projection.
As gently as I can say this, you might quit doing it then.
Ana the Ist said:
Why the lack of desire to evaluate your relationship with god?
Your question is worded incorrectly. It should read, "Why the lack of desire for ME to evaluate your relationship... " And you failed to capitalize God again. Which seems to evade your mental grasp.

I've already told you all you need to know. Now you want me to repeat it all. The problem is you are not equipped to deal with the answers - as I've pointed out. You want me to explain 'color' to a blind person and are dissatisfied with my description of 'wave lengths' of light - you want to know how I 'feel' when I see color. Then you get mad when I cannot because you are blind.

Why do you keeping asking answers that have been answered and then pretend outrage when you cannot grasp the answers already given?
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Davian said:
That would explain why your god does not "leave fingerprints", as you related to me earlier.
No, it doesn't. But it demonstrates your inability to grasp the concept.
 
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keith99

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Davian

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No, it doesn't.
But it would. If gods are imaginary, the world should act as if there are none, beyond statistics and personal confirmation bias. Anyone claiming to have a god would be unable to demonstrate its existence. And, is that not exactly what we find?
But it demonstrates your inability to grasp the concept.
Perhaps I do. I have never believed in any gods, but I do have that experience with Santa that I related to you earlier. While I believed, Santa was a real as the guy that lives next door. It did not occur to me to question the validity of the experience.

Are you infallible?
 
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seeingeyes

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This question is mainly for christians...but I'd also be interested in any personal experiences from atheists.

I'm sure that many christians have been exposed to all sorts of religious claims...especially testimonies. Specifically, I'm talking about those personal stories where god reached out and touched someone's life in a meaningful way. Other stories may be as simple as, "I prayed to god about X and this is the answer that he told me...."

As a believer, I'm sure that the majority of these stories you believe without question....
No. I don't believe the majority of these without question. People say "God told me..." about a whole host of things. I'm under no obligation to believe them, however.


you may even have a few yourself that you would want others to believe. However, I'm also sure that you don't believe every story that other christians tell you. Perhaps the reason you doubt one is because it involves the personal wishes of the person telling the story. For example, there is some debate about who should lead the bible study, and among the three women who all want to do it, one tells the group that she prayed to god on the matter and god told her that she should lead the bible study...and it will fall apart if anyone else does. Another reason you may disbelieve in a story is because the events seem a little too fantastical. For example, a young teen is giving their personal testimony and it involves a story about how their cat got run over by a car...the teen prayed to god to save her cat...and she saw an angel surrounded by light descend from the clouds, kiss the cat, and the cat then sprang back to life without any injury at all. From that day on the teen believed.

I know that last example is a little extreme...but I'm sure now most of you can recall stories like this that you've heard. What I'd like to know is...
I'm far more likely to believe the "God unsmooshed my cat with angel dust" story than the "God told me that I'm in charge" story. Why? Because one is a story of kindness and the other is self-serving claptrap. One is a picture of the grace of God, and the other is just politics-as-usual.

What caused you to disbelieve the story
Is it ever ok to lie about these stories? Especially when witnessing to a non-believer?
It is not ok to lie. God is not a product on HSN that needs to be sold with bling.

If you're an atheist...and you were once christian... I'd like to know if you ever told such a story, what it was about, and why you told it. Christians can share these as well, though I'm not expecting much participation lol.
My cat was never unsmooshed. :)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Wow God did all of those things for you?

That seemed like a lot for one person.

{End Sarcasm}

Any Christian can have the experiences I have had. It is not that I am special. But a person needs to try to live with out sin, and honor Jesus.
 
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