Lying for Religion

[Ana the Ist]

This question is mainly for christians...but I'd also be interested in any personal experiences from atheists.

I'm sure that many christians have been exposed to all sorts of religious claims...especially testimonies. Specifically, I'm talking about those personal stories where god reached out and touched someone's life in a meaningful way. Other stories may be as simple as, "I prayed to god about X and this is the answer that he told me...."

As a believer, I'm sure that the majority of these stories you believe without question.... you may even have a few yourself that you would want others to believe. However, I'm also sure that you don't believe every story that other christians tell you. Perhaps the reason you doubt one is because it involves the personal wishes of the person telling the story. For example, there is some debate about who should lead the bible study, and among the three women who all want to do it, one tells the group that she prayed to god on the matter and god told her that she should lead the bible study...and it will fall apart if anyone else does. Another reason you may disbelieve in a story is because the events seem a little too fantastical. For example, a young teen is giving their personal testimony and it involves a story about how their cat got run over by a car...the teen prayed to god to save her cat...and she saw an angel surrounded by light descend from the clouds, kiss the cat, and the cat then sprang back to life without any injury at all. From that day on the teen believed.

I know that last example is a little extreme...but I'm sure now most of you can recall stories like this that you've heard. What I'd like to know is...

What caused you to disbelieve the story
Is it ever ok to lie about these stories? Especially when witnessing to a non-believer?

If you're an atheist...and you were once christian... I'd like to know if you ever told such a story, what it was about, and why you told it. Christians can share these as well, though I'm not expecting much participation lol.

 

[Paradoxum]

I used to tell stories like these, that I had been told before. I thought they were true, and I was trying to convince people that God was real.

They were things like... God healed this person of this problem, and it would be impossible otherwise. Or about feeling a 'religious experience', or other people being prayed for and reacting in a physical way.

I didn't lie though.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I used to tell stories like these, that I had been told before. I thought they were true, and I was trying to convince people that God was real.

They were things like... God healed this person of this problem, and it would be impossible otherwise. Or about feeling a 'religious experience', or other people being prayed for and reacting in a physical way.

I didn't lie though.

Relating someone's story isn't really a lie, unless you added some embellishments to it.

I also understand that one of the reasons many atheists lose or begin to question their faith is because they never had an incident they attributed to god...so there's probably many atheists out there without any stories of this kind.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Maybe an example I know would help. My cousin has been a pastor for almost 20 years. He took a job as a pastor in Colorado... but had to do some soul searching to decide if he wanted to take it. He decided to take a nature hike and pray. He reached the top of a small peak, sat down and began praying to god for a sign on whether or not he should take the job. According to him, he'd been praying for maybe 10-15 minutes when a hawk came and landed on his shoulder. Not hawk droppings... the hawk itself perched on him. He took this as a sign he should take the job.

I was really surprised when he told me he told his congregation this story...I didn't think he thought anyone would believe it. I certainly didn't....too far-fetched.

 

[juvenissun]

This question is mainly for christians...but I'd also be interested in any personal experiences from atheists.

I'm sure that many christians have been exposed to all sorts of religious claims...especially testimonies. Specifically, I'm talking about those personal stories where god reached out and touched someone's life in a meaningful way. Other stories may be as simple as, "I prayed to god about X and this is the answer that he told me...."

As a believer, I'm sure that the majority of these stories you believe without question.... you may even have a few yourself that you would want others to believe. However, I'm also sure that you don't believe every story that other christians tell you. Perhaps the reason you doubt one is because it involves the personal wishes of the person telling the story. For example, there is some debate about who should lead the bible study, and among the three women who all want to do it, one tells the group that she prayed to god on the matter and god told her that she should lead the bible study...and it will fall apart if anyone else does. Another reason you may disbelieve in a story is because the events seem a little too fantastical. For example, a young teen is giving their personal testimony and it involves a story about how their cat got run over by a car...the teen prayed to god to save her cat...and she saw an angel surrounded by light descend from the clouds, kiss the cat, and the cat then sprang back to life without any injury at all. From that day on the teen believed.

I know that last example is a little extreme...but I'm sure now most of you can recall stories like this that you've heard. What I'd like to know is...

What caused you to disbelieve the story
Is it ever ok to lie about these stories? Especially when witnessing to a non-believer?

If you're an atheist...and you were once christian... I'd like to know if you ever told such a story, what it was about, and why you told it. Christians can share these as well, though I'm not expecting much participation lol.

If the "story" is an open witness, then your question is a wrong one. It is not whether the story is believable, but it is HOW do you appreciate the witnessed story.

If you do not want to appreciate it, then any one can always pick out many holes in the story easily, and call it a lie. It is a verbal description, not a carefully written article. So the description can not be carefully structured and may not even be logically correct. But if you try to appreciate the story, then you can always pick up the main point in the story which is always believable and is the intended witness to God by the speaker.

So, it is definitely wrong to call a faithful witness to God a lie, no matter how is the story sound. If you do, it only shows your poor understanding, or even shows your malicious intention to Christianity.

 

[juvenissun]

Maybe an example I know would help. My cousin has been a pastor for almost 20 years. He took a job as a pastor in Colorado... but had to do some soul searching to decide if he wanted to take it. He decided to take a nature hike and pray. He reached the top of a small peak, sat down and began praying to god for a sign on whether or not he should take the job. According to him, he'd been praying for maybe 10-15 minutes when a hawk came and landed on his shoulder. Not hawk droppings... the hawk itself perched on him. He took this as a sign he should take the job.

I was really surprised when he told me he told his congregation this story...I didn't think he thought anyone would believe it. I certainly didn't....too far-fetched.

So you think your cousin is a stupid and can not recognize the problem in his story? I can tell you that no one is that stupid. There MUST BE something significant in his "story".

I can tell you my story when I faced the similar problem as he had. If I tell you I hit a giant unsurmountable stone wall in front of me, so I decided not to be a pastor, would you say I am lying too? Whatever you think, something indeed stopped me from attending a seminary school when I was young.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If the "story" is an open witness, then your question is a wrong one. It is not whether the story is believable, but it is HOW do you appreciate the witnessed story.

If you do not want to appreciate it, then any one can always pick out many holes in the story easily, and call it a lie. It is a verbal description, not a carefully written article. So the description can not be carefully structured and may not even be logically correct. But if you try to appreciate the story, then you can always pick up the main point in the story which is always believable and is the intended witness to God by the speaker.

So, it is definitely wrong to call a faithful witness to God a lie, no matter how is the story sound. If you do, it only shows your poor understanding, or even shows your malicious intention to Christianity.

I'm not asking if anyone called someone's testimony a lie....I'm asking if anyone thought it, or another story regarding an interaction was a lie, and why they thought so. I've seen multiple threads in the christians only sections where the OPs have related stories of other members of their church that they felt were lies. Typically, the motive for them seemed self-serving...but I was curious about other stories that christians have heard that they questioned the truthfulness of and why they questioned it.

Frankly, I don't see what you're getting at with this comment. Is this some taboo topic amongst christians that I'm not supposed to ask about or, as christians, you aren't supposed to discuss? If so, why?...especially when you consider that we all know it's happening....

Also, what's an "open witness"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

So you think your cousin is a stupid and can not recognize the problem in his story? I can tell you that no one is that stupid. There MUST BE something significant in his "story".

I can tell you my story when I faced the similar problem as he had. If I tell you I hit a giant unsurmountable stone wall in front of me, so I decided not to be a pastor, would you say I am lying too? Whatever you think, something indeed stopped me from attending a seminary school when I was young.

You're asking me why I thought he lied? My best guess would be that he prayed to god for a sign, and whatever sign he got he probably felt was too commonplace, too everyday, too normal and would easily be considered as such instead of a sign from god by an audience.

Therefore, he decided to embellish the story. Perhaps what really happened is that he saw a hawk circling overhead and decided that was a sign from god. Maybe he decided it wasn't impressive enough... maybe he wanted his congregation to think he was the type of man god spoke to regularly... maybe his concern about making a big first impression on his new congregation stemmed from the fact that he was so young when he started as pastor there and he knew that not everyone agreed on hiring him. I don't really know why he lied... these are just guesses.

I don't think my cousin is "a stupid" as you so eloquently put it... but I don't think I'd list "smart" as one of his traits. He has another story about when he was 15-17 and he took his dog out for a walk in the evening. As he explained it, he was so moved by the beauty and stillness of nature that night... he decided to sit down on a curb and pray to god to thank him. As he sat there, eyes closed and head bowed in prayer... his dog ran away... never to be found again. So no, I don't think he's the brightest bulb in the box.

If you feel like sharing a personal story...and it's a lie you've told...go right ahead. If it's just some personal story, I'd rather you didn't as it doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic. If you're as offended by the OP as your tone suggests... maybe further participation isn't the way to go.

 

[variant]

I know that last example is a little extreme...but I'm sure now most of you can recall stories like this that you've heard. What I'd like to know is...

What caused you to disbelieve the story
Is it ever ok to lie about these stories? Especially when witnessing to a non-believer?

If you're an atheist...and you were once christian... I'd like to know if you ever told such a story, what it was about, and why you told it. Christians can share these as well, though I'm not expecting much participation lol.

My parents belonged to a prayer meeting that contained more than one pathological liar.

On the first day I met one of these people she told me that she had ten children that she could never see, that she had at least a dozen ailments because she was born prematurely into a toilet, that her nieces were the Olsen twins, and that she was miraculously healed from acid that had been thrown on her in the street unprovoked.

I politely told her that I didn't appreciate being lied to.

 

[SillyFool]

Ana the Ist "What caused you to disbelieve the story
Is it ever ok to lie about these stories? Especially when witnessing to a non-believer?"

There are stories that I passed along, believing they were true, which I no longer pass along.
I have my own stories which I do not share.

Personal stories, especially of the supernatural, are exciting, but so tempting to exaggerate. It's not that you're trying to lie; you're trying to convey the feeling of what happened, even if the facts might not have looked that dramatic. It's difficult not to represent God's voice, for example, as sounding much clearer than it actually was. Such stories also tend, despite our expressed intentions, to glorify us rather than God.

A priest whom I greatly admire once said, "the only miracle worthy of convincing someone to become a Christian is the Resurrection of Christ." Personal experiences are wonderful, but I don't believe they're either necessary or helpful in evangelism. So, to answer your question, No, it's not okay or beneficial to lie about a personal experience while talking with someone who is not a Christian.

Ana the Ist "I also understand that one of the reasons many atheists lose or begin to question their faith is because they never had an incident they attributed to god"

Some food for thought:
Luke 16: [a rich man has died and is speaking to Abraham in the afterlife]

27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

It's not a lack of supernatural experiences that keeps people from becoming Christians. There are Christians who have never had them, and there are former-Christians who had them but no longer believe. Wild.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are stories that I passed along, believing they were true, which I no longer pass along.
I have my own stories which I do not share.

Personal stories, especially of the supernatural, are exciting, but so tempting to exaggerate. It's not that you're trying to lie; you're trying to convey the feeling of what happened, even if the facts might not have looked that dramatic. It's difficult not to represent God's voice, for example, as sounding much clearer than it actually was. Such stories also tend, despite our expressed intentions, to glorify us rather than God.

A priest whom I greatly admire once said, "the only miracle worthy of convincing someone to become a Christian is the Resurrection of Christ." Personal experiences are wonderful, but I don't believe they're either necessary or helpful in evangelism. So, to answer your question, No, it's not okay or beneficial to lie about a personal experience while talking with someone who is not a Christian.



Some food for thought:
Luke 16: [a rich man has died and is speaking to Abraham in the afterlife]


It's not a lack of supernatural experiences that keeps people from becoming Christians. There are Christians who have never had them, and there are former-Christians who had them but no longer believe. Wild.

Good answer! I think you're right about the tendency to exaggerate for effect. I also think the imperfection of memory, especially the younger you are, can distort the recall of some of these experiences.

It's been a long long time since I read through the bible, so I forget the context of that passage. Who exactly is telling that story and how did he hear about it? (I'm assuming the dead man wasn't able to tell anyone.)

I'm not saying that a lack of supernatural experiences caused anyone to be atheist... but I've heard some atheists speak about how they had prayed for god to reveal himself, a sign, or even just an answer to a prayer and got nothing. This, over time, would lead them to question their beliefs and begin to examine them in earnest.

 

[madaz]

I also understand that one of the reasons many atheists lose or begin to question their faith is because they never had an incident they attributed to god...so there's probably many atheists out there without any stories of this kind.

As I learnt from my "Unbelievers...what once convinced you god exists" thread.

 

[SillyFool]

Ana the Ist "Who exactly is telling that story and how did he hear about it? (I'm assuming the dead man wasn't able to tell anyone.)"

Jesus is telling the story. It's part of a series of parables, but I have a hard time seeing a common thread through them, if you're wondering about context.

Ana the Ist "I've heard some atheists speak about how they had prayed for god to reveal himself, a sign, or even just an answer to a prayer and got nothing. This, over time, would lead them to question their beliefs and begin to examine them in earnest."

That's hard. I've seen that situation go both ways. Sometimes it ends with them giving up in despair; others have become some of the most rock-steady Christians I know. Like I said before, I've also known Christians who claimed they had incredible, even supernatural, experiences with God who eventually drifted away from the faith.

Every individual is so unique, and what is necessary for their soul's healing is equally unique.

 

[Ana the Ist]

As I learnt from my "Unbelievers...what once convinced you god exists" thread.

I think I remember that one, it was disappointing how it quickly devolved into accusations from believers towards atheists that "you were never really a believer/christian then." The premise of that being if they were really believers, nothing would ever convince them otherwise.

So the focus of this one is on christians...why they believe some testimonials/stories and not others. I'm a little disappointed at the lack of participation.... it's not as if I'm asking anyone to name names or how they know the person.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Jesus is telling the story. It's part of a series of parables, but I have a hard time seeing a common thread through them, if you're wondering about context.



That's hard. I've seen that situation go both ways. Sometimes it ends with them giving up in despair; others have become some of the most rock-steady Christians I know. Like I said before, I've also known Christians who claimed they had incredible, even supernatural, experiences with God who eventually drifted away from the faith.

Every individual is so unique, and what is necessary for their soul's healing is equally unique.

So Jesus knows the story because he's god...gotcha.

Sure, everyone is unique. My path to atheism didn't involve any of that sort of introspection. Not every atheist will. I think I'm most impressed with those atheists who did have what theythought/felt was an experience with god and later were able to look at it objectively, reassess what happened, and then become atheist.

It's hard to realize that something you were once so sure happened to you didn't actually happen.

 

[Ana the Ist]

My parents belonged to a prayer meeting that contained more than one pathological liar.

On the first day I met one of these people she told me that she had ten children that she could never see, that she had at least a dozen ailments because she was born prematurely into a toilet, that her nieces were the Olsen twins, and that she was miraculously healed from acid that had been thrown on her in the street unprovoked.

I politely told her that I didn't appreciate being lied to.

I've only known two pathological liars in my time. It's a bit shocking before you realize what's going on....you may believe some of the first lies as I think they tend to start small.

He had been an extra in dozens of movies, been struck by lightning five times, once memorized the dictionary, had three houses burn down in three freak accidents, been abducted by aliens....etc.

 

[SillyFool]

Ana the Ist "it was disappointing how it quickly devolved into accusations from believers towards atheists that "you were never really a believer/christian then.""

How sad. And, ironically, how unlikely to win anyone back...

Ana the Ist "It's hard to realize that something you were once so sure happened to you didn't actually happen."

True. I'm still a Christian, but I've reevaluated most of what I thought was true about God and how He relates with us.

 

[parsley]

one tells the group that she prayed to god on the matter and god told her that she should lead the bible study...and it will fall apart if anyone else does.

Good one. I say, first we should send her on a retreat for a month.

There always seems to be a narcissist in every group, no matter whether it's work or church; at the outset, people believe them because they come across with confidence and initiative.

It often turns out that they did not consciously try to weedle their way to the top, but they did not see the truth of who they were, and what they do to people. They expected to get their own way, because they have in the past.

This is where people insert, "We're all sinners," but there is often a lack of systematic response or scrutiny of what people claim to hear from God.

What caused you to disbelieve the story

Usually past experience.
(Which doesn't help the first few times.) I can see through stories when I have already watched people swindle their way through things, and still come out on top.

Is it ever ok to lie about these stories? Especially when witnessing to a non-believer

Oh my no. Being a witness is more about character and integrity, than communicating information.

Say, for instance you saw a mascot dressed up in a hot dog suit and sandwich board that said "All you can eat mustard today."
The information might intrigue you, but it does not convince you to walk in and buy.

Then you see a picnic table and sit down to make a phone call. Someone else is sitting at the table with a heaping plate-load of mustard, and the grilled hot dog smell is wafting by you. They offer you half, because they have more than they need.

Which is closer to effective evangelism?
Did the second person need to lie?
Did the first know enough about what was being served to represent the company well?

And do we need a giant hot dog mascot to get people in the doors?

Lying about a miracle or prophecy propagates deception, and pulls us all away from what God is doing among us. If a preacher inflates or lies to inspire people so they will donate, even if it's for a good cause, then they have destroyed the cause, and it is no longer worth supporting.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Good one. I say, first we should send her on a retreat for a month.

There always seems to be a narcissist in every group, no matter whether it's work or church; at the outset, people believe them because they come across with confidence and initiative.

It often turns out that they did not consciously try to weedle their way to the top, but they did not see the truth of who they were, and what they do to people. They expected to get their own way, because they have in the past.

This is where people insert, "We're all sinners," but there is often a lack of systematic response or scrutiny of what people claim to hear from God.


Usually past experience.
(Which doesn't help the first few times.) I can see through stories when I have already watched people swindle their way through things, and still come out on top.

Oh my no. Being a witness is more about character and integrity, than communicating information.

Say, for instance you saw a mascot dressed up in a hot dog suit and sandwich board that said "All you can eat mustard today."
The information might intrigue you, but it does not convince you to walk in and buy.

Then you see a picnic table and sit down to make a phone call. Someone else is sitting at the table with a heaping plate-load of mustard, and the grilled hot dog smell is wafting by you. They offer you half, because they have more than they need.

Which is closer to effective evangelism?
Did the second person need to lie?
Did the first know enough about what was being served to represent the company well?

And do we need a giant hot dog mascot to get people in the doors?

Lying about a miracle or prophecy propagates deception, and pulls us all away from what God is doing among us. If a preacher inflates or lies to inspire people so they will donate, even if it's for a good cause, then they have destroyed the cause, and it is no longer worth supporting.

I kinda get what you're saying here...

What if we're just talking person to person? Wouldn't it be worth lying to someone if it convinced him to accept Jesus? Isn't that sin worth saving someone's soul?

 

[Colter]

"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring — these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth." UB 1955​

Obama is a Christian, I think of his repeated lies about the ACA. To him the ends justify the means.

I also think the propensity to exaggerate when retelling stories such as the many exaggerations in the Old Testament.

I've never lied or exaggerated about my rebirth experience, I've retold it using the best way of explaining it that I could.