Lying for Religion

[bhsmte]

I've only known two pathological liars in my time. It's a bit shocking before you realize what's going on....you may believe some of the first lies as I think they tend to start small.

He had been an extra in dozens of movies, been struck by lightning five times, once memorized the dictionary, had three houses burn down in three freak accidents, been abducted by aliens....etc.

People that need to rely on lie after lie, can establish the ability to be quite convincing and also quite charming and manipulative, as they have to be to be able to fool people for as long as possible.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring — these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth." UB 1955​

Obama is a Christian, I think of his repeated lies about the ACA. To him the ends justify the means.

I also think the propensity to exaggerate when retelling stories such as the many exaggerations in the Old Testament.

I've never lied or exaggerated about my rebirth experience, I've retold it using the best way of explaining it that I could.

I don't think Obama really has anything to do with this. It's about lying about supernatural stories.

 

[Resha Caner]

It is not whether the story is believable, but it is HOW do you appreciate the witnessed story.

Frankly, I don't see what you're getting at with this comment.

Not that I know what you're both thinking here, but I'll offer my perspective on juvenissun's comment.

I have had people come to me seeking help with trouble, and who claim the trouble was caused by demons. I was initially skeptical of the events they described, but one thing was very apparent: they needed help. So, to launch into a lecture on the lack of scientific evidence supporting the claims they had just made would have been wholly unproductive. They needed someone to believe something traumatic had happened to them, and they needed help with that trauma.

The discussion on demons could wait until the trauma was behind them. The truth is, neither I nor the person who asked for my help will really ever know what actually happened to them. There's a sense in which it doesn't matter ... unless one is absolutely determined to convince people that demons don't exist. I'm not trying to accomplish that.

Maybe an example I know would help. My cousin has been a pastor for almost 20 years. He took a job as a pastor in Colorado... but had to do some soul searching to decide if he wanted to take it. He decided to take a nature hike and pray. He reached the top of a small peak, sat down and began praying to god for a sign on whether or not he should take the job. According to him, he'd been praying for maybe 10-15 minutes when a hawk came and landed on his shoulder. Not hawk droppings... the hawk itself perched on him. He took this as a sign he should take the job.

I think you're wrong to call your cousin a liar. Unless you've caught him (with direct evidence) in other lies, and think him very untrustworthy, you're just speculating.

I had a squirrel jump onto my shoulder once while I was playing golf. I was sitting under a tree with my dad waiting for the golfers in front of us to tee off. And, people have convinced hawks to land on them - the sport of falconry had to start somehow.

The difference is that I didn't take what the squirrel did as a sign. It's just a funny story.

So, yes, I am concerned about those who turn Christianity into divination - who make God no better than a Ouija board. Why would God choose a hawk for a sign? Why wasn't it a sign that he shouldn't take the job? Those are the questions I would have - not whether the event occurred. Lutherans are considered boring because the pastor keeps hammering on the same themes over and over in his sermons. But he has to because people don't get it. The Bible is not a magic cook book for divining every silly little decision someone wants to make.

Personal stories, especially of the supernatural, are exciting, but so tempting to exaggerate. It's not that you're trying to lie; you're trying to convey the feeling of what happened, even if the facts might not have looked that dramatic. It's difficult not to represent God's voice, for example, as sounding much clearer than it actually was. Such stories also tend, despite our expressed intentions, to glorify us rather than God.

Yep. I think this is close to what juvenissun was trying to say.

The other factor I would note is an issue of language. Christians are socialized into a certain way of communicating with each other that unbelievers struggle to understand. That's not because of some special nature of the group. As an engineer, I have the same problem with non-engineers. And, when people step outside that norm of communication to try to translate for others, they sometimes do a poor job of it. Exaggeration is a common resort in such situations.

 

[variant]

I've only known two pathological liars in my time. It's a bit shocking before you realize what's going on....you may believe some of the first lies as I think they tend to start small.

He had been an extra in dozens of movies, been struck by lightning five times, once memorized the dictionary, had three houses burn down in three freak accidents, been abducted by aliens....etc.

Mine were starkly bad at it.

The problem of course is that the religious community to which they were attached was not built to handle their psychological problems. They seemed to instead feed their need for attention and the liars sometimes fed the religious community's need for stories about healing from imaginary diseases

 

[Paradoxum]

Relating someone's story isn't really a lie, unless you added some embellishments to it.

I also understand that one of the reasons many atheists lose or begin to question their faith is because they never had an incident they attributed to god...so there's probably many atheists out there without any stories of this kind.

Yeah, I was in a denomination that emphasised things like that.

 

[keith99]

Maybe an example I know would help. My cousin has been a pastor for almost 20 years. He took a job as a pastor in Colorado... but had to do some soul searching to decide if he wanted to take it. He decided to take a nature hike and pray. He reached the top of a small peak, sat down and began praying to god for a sign on whether or not he should take the job. According to him, he'd been praying for maybe 10-15 minutes when a hawk came and landed on his shoulder. Not hawk droppings... the hawk itself perched on him. He took this as a sign he should take the job.

I was really surprised when he told me he told his congregation this story...I didn't think he thought anyone would believe it. I certainly didn't....too far-fetched.

The fool, it was a sign he was called to a pastorate in Seattle!

Sorry, just remembered the guy who got landed on at the game last week by the mascot.

EDIT: I've also had a squirrel jump on my shoulder. Multiple times. But then Ishmael thought I was his mother since I saved him from the cats and hand fed him from a bottle.

Ishi has a far better salvation story than any I have heard from a human.

BTW a squirrel can cross the widest living room in 2 leaps and then land half way up your leg. Fine if you wear long pants, a bit annoying if yuo are wearing shorts and no shirt since the next thing is scrambling up to your shoulder.

 

[juvenissun]

I'm not asking if anyone called someone's testimony a lie....I'm asking if anyone thought it, or another story regarding an interaction was a lie, and why they thought so. I've seen multiple threads in the christians only sections where the OPs have related stories of other members of their church that they felt were lies. Typically, the motive for them seemed self-serving...but I was curious about other stories that christians have heard that they questioned the truthfulness of and why they questioned it.

Frankly, I don't see what you're getting at with this comment. Is this some taboo topic amongst christians that I'm not supposed to ask about or, as christians, you aren't supposed to discuss? If so, why?...especially when you consider that we all know it's happening....

Also, what's an "open witness"?

What I am saying is: if you "want to" call a Christian witness a lie, you can always find good reasons to do that.

But that will not make you look smart or good.

 

[lesliedellow]

Sometimes I have heard it all before. The classic example being the short leg which grows to be the same length as the other. That one has been doing the rounds for at least the last thirty years. The person who relates it isn't necessarily lying, at least not intentionally, but he is a miracle junkie, and too anxious to believe those kinds of stories.

Sometimes, as with American televangelists, they are obvious fraudsters.

Sometimes I just can't believe their credulity. As with the bore hole which was supposedly drilled in Russia, and the screams of people in hell were supposedly to be heard emanating from it.

 

[juvenissun]

You're asking me why I thought he lied? My best guess would be that he prayed to god for a sign, and whatever sign he got he probably felt was too commonplace, too everyday, too normal and would easily be considered as such instead of a sign from god by an audience.

Therefore, he decided to embellish the story. Perhaps what really happened is that he saw a hawk circling overhead and decided that was a sign from god. Maybe he decided it wasn't impressive enough... maybe he wanted his congregation to think he was the type of man god spoke to regularly... maybe his concern about making a big first impression on his new congregation stemmed from the fact that he was so young when he started as pastor there and he knew that not everyone agreed on hiring him. I don't really know why he lied... these are just guesses.

I don't think my cousin is "a stupid" as you so eloquently put it... but I don't think I'd list "smart" as one of his traits. He has another story about when he was 15-17 and he took his dog out for a walk in the evening. As he explained it, he was so moved by the beauty and stillness of nature that night... he decided to sit down on a curb and pray to god to thank him. As he sat there, eyes closed and head bowed in prayer... his dog ran away... never to be found again. So no, I don't think he's the brightest bulb in the box.

If you feel like sharing a personal story...and it's a lie you've told...go right ahead. If it's just some personal story, I'd rather you didn't as it doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic. If you're as offended by the OP as your tone suggests... maybe further participation isn't the way to go.

Don't you think that your cousin was making an unusual, even an unbelievable "story" to emphasize his experience? And you think that he does not feel people would see him the same way as you do?

Admit it, you do think your cousin did a foolish thing. And you think he does not know what he did is foolish. You think he lied in public. The lie is so obvious that all his congregation would know that immediately.

If what you said is a real event, then it would not be hard to investigate. Just try to talk to a church member who heard his witness and find out his response.

 

[juvenissun]

"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring — these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth." UB 1955​

Obama is a Christian, I think of his repeated lies about the ACA. To him the ends justify the means.

I also think the propensity to exaggerate when retelling stories such as the many exaggerations in the Old Testament.

I've never lied or exaggerated about my rebirth experience, I've retold it using the best way of explaining it that I could.

I believe no matter how hard you try, many atheists WILL still think you are lying to them.

Lie or not lie is not the problem. Believe or not believe IS the basic problem.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not that I know what you're both thinking here, but I'll offer my perspective on juvenissun's comment.

I have had people come to me seeking help with trouble, and who claim the trouble was caused by demons. I was initially skeptical of the events they described, but one thing was very apparent: they needed help. So, to launch into a lecture on the lack of scientific evidence supporting the claims they had just made would have been wholly unproductive. They needed someone to believe something traumatic had happened to them, and they needed help with that trauma.

The discussion on demons could wait until the trauma was behind them. The truth is, neither I nor the person who asked for my help will really ever know what actually happened to them. There's a sense in which it doesn't matter ... unless one is absolutely determined to convince people that demons don't exist. I'm not trying to accomplish that.



I think you're wrong to call your cousin a liar. Unless you've caught him (with direct evidence) in other lies, and think him very untrustworthy, you're just speculating.

I had a squirrel jump onto my shoulder once while I was playing golf. I was sitting under a tree with my dad waiting for the golfers in front of us to tee off. And, people have convinced hawks to land on them - the sport of falconry had to start somehow.

The difference is that I didn't take what the squirrel did as a sign. It's just a funny story.

So, yes, I am concerned about those who turn Christianity into divination - who make God no better than a Ouija board. Why would God choose a hawk for a sign? Why wasn't it a sign that he shouldn't take the job? Those are the questions I would have - not whether the event occurred. Lutherans are considered boring because the pastor keeps hammering on the same themes over and over in his sermons. But he has to because people don't get it. The Bible is not a magic cook book for divining every silly little decision someone wants to make.



Yep. I think this is close to what juvenissun was trying to say.

The other factor I would note is an issue of language. Christians are socialized into a certain way of communicating with each other that unbelievers struggle to understand. That's not because of some special nature of the group. As an engineer, I have the same problem with non-engineers. And, when people step outside that norm of communication to try to translate for others, they sometimes do a poor job of it. Exaggeration is a common resort in such situations.

You're right in saying I was speculating...you may notice in the OP I was speaking about incidents in which we think the person telling the story is lying...not incidents where we know the person is lying. I'm aware that a lot of christians have trouble distinguishing between what they know and what they think/believe...so if you need me to elaborate on this point, just say so, I'll be glad to.

I watched a documentary on falconry once. It's a dying hunting method. Young falcons are either plucked from the nest shortly after hatching or before hatching... I'm about 99% certain that no one trains adult hawks for such purposes. The relationship between falconer and falcon has to be developed over years and years. Part of the difficulty of such training is why the practice died out.

I totally understand what you're saying about the demon example. Personally though, I'd be wary about helping someone in that situation if I were not a trained psychologist. Sometimes playing along with someone's delusion does more harm than good...and can reinforce the behavior that resulted in the delusion in the first place.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Don't you think that your cousin was making an unusual, even an unbelievable "story" to emphasize his experience? And you think that he does not feel people would see him the same way as you do?

Admit it, you do think your cousin did a foolish thing. And you think he does not know what he did is foolish. You think he lied in public. The lie is so obvious that all his congregation would know that immediately.

If what you said is a real event, then it would not be hard to investigate. Just try to talk to a church member who heard his witness and find out his response.

I already mentioned why I thought he created the story

I don't think he would've told it if he thought his new congregation was going to think him a liar. Even in a hypothetical scenario where it was the truth, I don't think he would've shared it if he thought no one would believe him. Quite the opposite, i think he expected those people to believe him. Church is a place where the normal rules for what you believe and don't believe are suspended...examining the rules that replace the normal rules are really what this thread is all about.

I don't think what he did was foolish. If the majority of his congregation believed the story, it was a useful lie to say the least.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting by the possibility of investigating his story. You think he lied to me about a lie he told his congregation? I don't see what he has to gain by that...

 

[Ana the Ist]

I believe no matter how hard you try, many atheists WILL still think you are lying to them.

Lie or not lie is not the problem. Believe or not believe IS the basic problem.

I've never heard a testimony which I believed was the result of any sort of supernatural event/divine influence/god...and while I think a few of the ones I've heard/read are lies, the majority of them I think the storyteller genuinely believed what they were saying.

Why is the possibility that a story/testimony is a lie not a problem? Isn't it a problem if you believe in a lie?

 

[SillyFool]

Anna the Ist "Wouldn't it be worth lying to someone if it convinced him to accept Jesus? Isn't that sin worth saving someone's soul?"

Nope. Not because I don't want to get in trouble for sinning, but because a lie is a horrible foundation for faith. It's like setting them up for failure. If "salvation" was just about getting them to say some magic words, I might have a different answer, but because I believe salvation is a process of healing that continues throughout our lives, I don't believe a lie will save them.

Resha Caner "The other factor I would note is an issue of language. Christians are socialized into a certain way of communicating with each other that unbelievers struggle to understand. That's not because of some special nature of the group. As an engineer, I have the same problem with non-engineers. And, when people step outside that norm of communication to try to translate for others, they sometimes do a poor job of it. Exaggeration is a common resort in such situations."

Well said.

 

[Resha Caner]

You're right in saying I was speculating...you may notice in the OP I was speaking about incidents in which we think the person telling the story is lying...not incidents where we know the person is lying. I'm aware that a lot of christians have trouble distinguishing between what they know and what they think/believe...so if you need me to elaborate on this point, just say so, I'll be glad to.

How kind of you to offer, but I understand the difference. I was speaking more to the conversation in process than the OP.

Yes, there have been several instances when I suspected people were lying. However, I don't recall an instance where it was related to religious testimony. It's just not a regular part of my community of faith to tell miracle stories. Most of the testimony I hear would be considered fairly mundane, I expect.

I watched a documentary on falconry once. It's a dying hunting method. Young falcons are either plucked from the nest shortly after hatching or before hatching... I'm about 99% certain that no one trains adult hawks for such purposes. The relationship between falconer and falcon has to be developed over years and years. Part of the difficulty of such training is why the practice died out.

I stand corrected on my knowledge of falconry. However, I think the point stands. Keith pointed out that there are documented instances of a hawk landing on someone.

I totally understand what you're saying about the demon example. Personally though, I'd be wary about helping someone in that situation if I were not a trained psychologist. Sometimes playing along with someone's delusion does more harm than good...and can reinforce the behavior that resulted in the delusion in the first place.

I never said I "played along with someone's delusion." Nor did I say that my efforts to provide help were absent professional medical assistance. In the moment, when a person is threatening suicide, a trained psychologist is not always readily at hand. Nor, as I have learned, will the person trust someone they don't know just because they have a diploma hanging on their wall. You do what you can until further help can be obtained - until the person is willing to accept that professional help. But I appreciate your kind advice.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How kind of you to offer, but I understand the difference. I was speaking more to the conversation in process than the OP.

Yes, there have been several instances when I suspected people were lying. However, I don't recall an instance where it was related to religious testimony. It's just not a regular part of my community of faith to tell miracle stories. Most of the testimony I hear would be considered fairly mundane, I expect.



I stand corrected on my knowledge of falconry. However, I think the point stands. Keith pointed out that there are documented instances of a hawk landing on someone.



I never said I "played along with someone's delusion." Nor did I say that my efforts to provide help were absent professional medical assistance. In the moment, when a person is threatening suicide, a trained psychologist is not always readily at hand. Nor, as I have learned, will the person trust someone they don't know just because they have a diploma hanging on their wall. You do what you can until further help can be obtained - until the person is willing to accept that professional help. But I appreciate your kind advice.

Ahh... I thought he was making a joke about a guy in a big seahawk suit jumping on some guy. I didn't realize that there was a live seahawk that was kept by the team. Either way, we're talking about a trained, domesticated hawk...not one flying around in the wild. We're also speaking about a stadium full of people...not one guy sitting way up in the rafters. This is where we get into the clever part of this lie though....

It's possible. He didn't make some story about how a hawk landed on him and then winked at him before speaking in a deep booming voice that he should take the pastor position. He left it as something that, if you believe, sounds relatively plausible. He even picked a bird that if it were to happen...is probably the most likely bird to have it happen with. A majestic hawk, not a nervous little finch, not an ominous looking crow.

He also chose something, while possible, is so unlikely that it wouldn't be immediately dismissed as mere coincidence. If this was something that hawks did all the time (to be honest I've never heard of it happening apart from this incident) people might be given to thinking it was just a coincidence. They might think, "Pshh, I had two hawks land on me just last week!". He chose something that everyone is likely to interpret the same way. He could've made the story about how a mountain lion crossed his path and growled at him. Would everyone take that as a sign to take the job? Would they think god protected him and it's a sign to stay? Would they think god sent the lion as a warning to get the hell out of there? It's a well crafted story for the right effect.

I'm certainly not aware of the particular behaviors common to every denomination. I didn't expect every church to be the type where members share stories of their personal testimony, so I included the possibility of just casual stories of interactions with god. Maybe someone told you a story where they prayed for/about something and they got an answer from god. Upon hearing this story, you thought "No way did that happen.". You've never had an incident like that?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I will flatly say that lying is wrong in the nature of sinful. Which is not to say I've never lied. However, I am ashamed of having done so and I find as time goes on I am more and more careful about what I do say.

For instance, had the hawk landed on my shoulder, I probably would not relate that at all. At most, I would tell the story only to people who know me and know I would not make it up. As mentioned, it's a bit far-fetched. I did have an experience somewhat similar at one time; but since I'm the only witness, telling it is pointless in my view.

I've been an 'observing' Christian for many years now. I've heard people give 'testimonies' which sound a bit like a mixture of bragging and an attempt of 'oneupsmanship'. I've heard more such stories from non-Christians in a non-church setting, just for the record. My opinion is such exaggeration (or outright lying!) is more a function of being human than being a Christian.

I've had several atheists tell me lies about their motivation as an atheist. I can say this with certainty because over the course of time, I've talked to the same person more than once and the story changes. Most telling is when the person at first claims to be atheist due to logic and observational reasons, then at some point has an emotional break and relates the great emotional trauma - usually an actual trauma, by the way - which led to them rejecting God.

I spent twenty-eight years as a lawman. I've been lied to by suspects, co-workers, supervisors. Don't get me started on attorneys. Much of my job was determining who was lying to me, and then determining if the lie was something I needed to investigate or of no consequence relative to my duties.

All that aside, I am deeply offended when someone claiming to be a Christian lies about much anything. Following in God's example does not encourage lying. Repeating unverified claims as true is about as bad. Which is why I am deeply incensed when some factions lie - or repeat nonsense and claim 'plausible deniability' - regarding matters pertaining to Christianity.

 

[niye]

I'm not sure if you can call most such stories "lies." They're probably experiences that grew in the telling, and turned into stories. My husband tells stories about the haunted house where he grew up. His younger bro, an evangelical, and his older bro, agnostic, tell the same stories. The father, who is an atheist, and the mother, who is an evangelical, agree that the house was, indeed, haunted.

I don't believe them. I think the stories grew in the telling, and members of the family bolstered one another so now they all have some really cool and creepy stories about this house. However, when they tell these stories, they are not lying. They fully believe that their house was haunted.

Maybe the house was haunted lol.

 

[Resha Caner]

It's possible. He didn't make some story about how a hawk landed on him and then winked at him before speaking in a deep booming voice that he should take the pastor position. He left it as something that, if you believe, sounds relatively plausible. He even picked a bird that if it were to happen...is probably the most likely bird to have it happen with. A majestic hawk, not a nervous little finch, not an ominous looking crow.

It is shocking that someone would tell a story about something that could actually happen. No wonder you thought he was lying.

As I said, my reaction would not have been he was lying (about the hawk), but that it could well have been wishful thinking on his part (to take the job). Discernment is a tricky subject.

... (to be honest I've never heard of it happening apart from this incident) ...

It's not something one just goes searching the Internet for on a whim, but since it came up: Cooper’s hawk lands on Royal Oak police car (with video)

Still, your reaction is understandable. I think your reaction is due to the fact that it's an experience you've never had. And yet, if hawks were landing on people every day, how would it be a sign?

I'm certainly not aware of the particular behaviors common to every denomination. I didn't expect every church to be the type where members share stories of their personal testimony, so I included the possibility of just casual stories of interactions with god. Maybe someone told you a story where they prayed for/about something and they got an answer from god. Upon hearing this story, you thought "No way did that happen.". You've never had an incident like that?

As I said, the way some people turn Christianity into divination bothers me. I know of people who use the Bible like a roulette wheel - pick a verse and that's what God wants you to do. I'm quite sure it doesn't work that way.

I am also aware of instances where I am quite certain God was involved.

However, I can't give you a recipe that defines the difference.

 

[Resha Caner]

My opinion is such exaggeration (or outright lying!) is more a function of being human than being a Christian.