Lost tribes or not so lost tribes???

[Open Heart]

I thought this article was really well written and well documented with tons of scriptures. Agree or disagree, it will make you think and is worth reading. It is elsewhere on CF.

"The truth of the matter is that there are no lost ten tribes. During the time of the kingdom division and the captivities, a certain percentage of each of the northern tribes came down and took up residence in the area of Judah. After that time the name Judah or the Jews referred not only to the specific tribe of Judah but also to the Benjaminites, the Levites and the remnant of all the northern tribes.

There are no lost ten tribes. All the tribes of Israel are included in what we call today the Jewish people. There are seven basic biblical evidences that prove this position."

All twelve tribes were present during Jesus first advent

 

[Tolworth John]

Are the tribes of Israel relevant today?
there is no need for Levites and no present day requirement to marry within ones tribe.

the need today is for Jew and Gentile to come to faith in Jesus.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Funny how Matthew 5:18 contradicts that assumption.

 

[Open Heart]

Are the tribes of Israel relevant today?
there is no need for Levites and no present day requirement to marry within ones tribe.

the need today is for Jew and Gentile to come to faith in Jesus.

Let's not oversimplify things.

Can we start by saying that the Church has not replaced Israel. The people of Israel have not somehow become useless has beens, cursed to wander the earth, remnants of a past that has no more bearing. No. Rather, Jacob's descendants still have yet a part to play in God's still unfolding plan for salvation. We saw part of it in 1948. We saw part of it in 1967. We keep seeing it. The Children of Israel remain God's firstborn son; "as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs."

So yes, for Jews, Jew stuff IS important. It's about survival as a people. In order for Jews to continue as the people set apart, we must marry in a way that we can form Jewish families and raise Jewish children. If a Jewish man marries a Gentile woman, his children will not be Jews. His entire line is lost to the Children of Israel. If one Jewish man does that, it seems like a small cost to pay for true love, especially if she is a Godly Christian woman. But what if half of all Jewish men did that? Half of the next generation of Jews would simply not exist. And not just that generation, but THEIR children, and their children's children.

When you put it like that, it makes sense. The only reason it wouldn't make sense is if a person just doesn't care if the Jewish people die out.

 

[pat34lee]

Are the tribes of Israel relevant today?
there is no need for Levites and no present day requirement to marry within ones tribe.

the need today is for Jew and Gentile to come to faith in Jesus.

The tribes have always been important, and all of them will
be returned to Israel in due time.

 

[pat34lee]

When you put it like that, it makes sense. The only reason it wouldn't make sense is if a person just doesn't care if the Jewish people die out.

The Jewish people cannot die any more than the lost tribes
are lost to Yahweh. He knows every one, even if none know
themselves yet.

 

[Tolworth John]

When you put it like that, it makes sense. The only reason it wouldn't make sense is if a person just doesn't care if the Jewish people die out

You are talking about a culture and what is important to that culture.
The OT prophets made it clear that god is not interested in people just following traditions, he wanted then and today commitment to him and that now is through Jesus.

As a Messianic Jew you are following the true Jewish path.

 

[Tolworth John]

The Jewish people cannot die any more than the lost tribes
are lost to Yahweh. He knows every one, even if none know
themselves yet.

The OT prophets made it clear that god is not interested in people just following traditions, he wanted then and today commitment to him and that now is through Jesus.

As a Messianic Jew you are following the true Jewish path.
Who comes to faith is in gods hands.

 

[Open Heart]

You are talking about a culture and what is important to that culture.
The OT prophets made it clear that god is not interested in people just following traditions, he wanted then and today commitment to him and that now is through Jesus.

As a Messianic Jew you are following the true Jewish path.

It's more complicated than that. You are oversimplifying things. You are handing me an abacus and telling me its a computer.

 

[Open Heart]

The Jewish people cannot die any more than the lost tribes
are lost to Yahweh. He knows every one, even if none know
themselves yet.

I think you are absolutely right. Yet the LORD expects us to work with him. When we don't cooperate, he usually allows us to suffer. I'd rather not suffer.

 

[tampasteve]

Are the tribes of Israel relevant today?
there is no need for Levites and no present day requirement to marry within ones tribe.

There is no need for Levites today, but when the temple is rebuilt and services resume, they will be needed.

the need today is for Jew and Gentile to come to faith in Jesus.

True, except faith in Jesus can take a different context in a Jewish or Messianic Jewish light. I do not consider myself a "Christian" but I do consider myself a Jewish Proselyte that believes Yeshua was Messiach.

 

[Open Heart]

There is no need for Levites today, but when the temple is rebuilt and services resume, they will be needed.

So true about the third temple!

As far as today goes, I think giving the priestly blessing on a Yom Tov is really special and meaningful, and it just really doesn't work if it's not the real thing by a genuine Kohen.

 

[Hank77]

If a Jewish man marries a Gentile woman, his children will not be Jews. His entire line is lost to the Children of Israel. If one Jewish man does that, it seems like a small cost to pay for true love, especially if she is a Godly Christian woman. But what if half of all Jewish men did that? Half of the next generation of Jews would simply not exist. And not just that generation, but THEIR children, and their children's children.

Not all Jews agree with this idea. Please identify the scriptures that support that view. Thanks

 

[tampasteve]

Not all Jews agree with this idea. Please identify the scriptures that support that view. Thanks

True, but that is really limited to Reform, Reconstructionist and Independent, the overall orthodox belief for centuries is that the Jewish soul comes from the mother while tribal identity comes from the father. A short decent argument:
Who is a Jew, according to the Torah?

But I shall demonstrate, with Hashem's help, that the Torah does say that the mother carries the Jewish lineage.

In the Book of Ezra we learn that a large number of Jews left Babylon to go up to Israel to rebuild Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Some time later, Ezra the Scribe came up as well. When he arrived, he bagen to teach Torah and the Torah's Laws to the people. He was told that a number of Jews had married non-Jewish women. When Ezra spoke to the people about this, they repented, and agreed to send away their wives and the children they had had with those wives. This is what the people told Ezra (Ezra 10:2-3):

"We have transgressed against our G-d by marrying women who are foreign to the people. But there is still hope for Israel despite this. Let us now make a covenant with our G-d to expel all these women and those who have been born to them, in accordance with the bidding of Hashem and those eager to fulfill our G-d's Commandment, and let the Torah be obeyed."
And indeed, the non-Jewish women and the children they had with them were all sent away. Now, if those children had been considered Jewish, why would they send them away? They sent them away because they were not considered Jewish, because their mothers were not Jewish.​

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I think you are absolutely right. Yet the LORD expects us to work with him. When we don't cooperate, he usually allows us to suffer. I'd rather not suffer.

So are you saying Jewish tradition, ritual and obedience to God's Law are important if one claims to be a Jew?

 

[Hank77]

Let us now make a covenant with our G-d to expel all these women and those who have been born to them, in accordance with the bidding of Hashem and those eager to fulfill our G-d's Commandment, and let the Torah be obeyed."

Was Obed, son of Boaz and Ruth, considered Jewish? If so, why?

And indeed, the non-Jewish women and the children they had with them were all sent away. Now, if those children had been considered Jewish, why would they send them away? They sent them away because they were not considered Jewish, because their mothers were not Jewish.

Seeing you asked the question, I will assume that I can respond.

Israel was to be a chosen people, different from other nations; they were different because of the God they served.
These women were foreign [strange] not born Hebrew or were not proselytes who had converted to the Hebrew's faith. So like Solomon's foreign wives they could lead the Hebrews to follow foreign gods, foreign traditions, foreign ideology, which it appears is what happened. If their children were allowed to live with the Hebrew children they could corrupt the Hebrew children with the superstitions that they had learned from their foreign mothers. So it was about keeping Torah and not allowing the religion and the people to be corrupted any longer, which did happen under Solomon.

Deu 7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Why?
Deu 7:4 For they will turn away thy son [or daughter] from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

 

[tampasteve]

Was Obed, son of Boaz and Ruth, considered Jewish? If so, why?

Yes, Ruth is considered a convert to the faith so as such her child with Boaz would also be considered Jewish. If she had a child before Boaz and before she converted then that child would also have to convert as he would not be considered Jewish.

Seeing you asked the question, I will assume that I can respond.

I didn't ask, it was part of a quote none the less, worthy of discussion.

Israel was to be a chosen people, different from other nations; they were different because of the God they served.
These women were foreign [strange] not born Hebrew or were not proselytes who had converted to the Hebrew's faith. So like Solomon's foreign wives they could lead the Hebrews to follow foreign gods, foreign traditions, foreign ideology, which it appears is what happened. If their children were allowed to live with the Hebrew children they could corrupt the Hebrew children with the superstitions that they had learned from their foreign mothers. So it was about keeping Torah and not allowing the religion and the people to be corrupted any longer, which did happen under Solomon.

Deu 7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Why?
Deu 7:4 For they will turn away thy son [or daughter] from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

*edit, I misread the passage you posted.

It seems to me that the passage in Ezra is pretty clear about it being the children of the women they took in marriage that must be sent away. The passage does not mention the children of men married into the community, just the children of women married into it.

 

[pat34lee]

The OT prophets made it clear that god is not interested in people just following traditions, he wanted then and today commitment to him and that now is through Jesus.

As a Messianic Jew you are following the true Jewish path.
Who comes to faith is in gods hands.

True. Yahweh does not want his people following empty traditions.
He wants them to serve him as he commanded, and with their full
hearts and souls. When Yeshua (Jesus) reigns in Jerusalem, we will
be following the Torah and sacrificing at the temple.

Unbelievers won't be the most surprised then, but those who teach
that the law was done away with.

 

[ChavaK]

I do not consider myself a "Christian" but I do consider myself a Jewish Proselyte that believes Yeshua was Messiach.

Really? You consider yourself Jewish?

 

[Hank77]

Yes, Ruth is considered a convert to the faith so as such her child with Boaz would also be considered Jewish. If she had a child before Boaz and before she converted then that child would also have to convert as he would not be considered Jewish.

I agree. Obed's actual Jewish ancestry was from Boaz, but the spiritual faith, religion, was from both of them being evenly yoked.

It seems to me that the passage in Ezra is pretty clear about it being the children of the women they took in marriage that must be sent away. The passage does not mention the children of men married into the community, just the children of women married into it.

I agree.

There appears to be at least some evidence that when women married foreigners they could no longer live in the Jewish community, ie. the Samaritans.