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Lost tribes or not so lost tribes???

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Open Heart, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    tribal identity is passed fraternally. One's identity as part of the people of Israel is passed maternally. Thus Jesus was a Jew because Mary was a Jew, and Jesus was assumed to be of the tribe of Judah because everyone thought that Joseph was his father.
     
  2. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    you avoided my question
     
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    No one knows the answer to your question. I don't know how tribal membership would work if the mother is not Israelite. How can you be tribe of Judah if you are not of the People of Israel?
     
  4. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    So does scripture :)
     
  5. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    For tribal affiliation. Not for belonging to the People of Israel in general. The Bible doesn't really address this. It is Oral Torah.
     
  6. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    Actually, it does. With the exception of Mary's lineage, there is no other instance where maternal lineage is cited. Its ALWAYS Father to Son. Maternal lineage is a "tradition of man" is MOST of the Oral traditions
     
  7. fat wee robin

    fat wee robin Newbie

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    Just for information ,when do you think 'man 'came into existance ?
     
  8. fat wee robin

    fat wee robin Newbie

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    It seems that our full DNA can only come from the male side .Only the mothers DNA can be found in the
    female ,not the fathers .So it would seem to be logical that men would carry the 'line' of the tribe.
     
  9. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✡Messianic✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    Honestly, I do not put much thought into the details. What matters to me is the man became knowledgeable of G-d when he breathed life into Adam and spoke his commandments to Adam, Noach, and Moshe as outlined in the Tanakh.
     
  10. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    perhaps The tradition does have meaning in "cover us"
    Luke
    mountains and hills

    And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
    But Jesus turning unto them said,
    Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
    For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
    Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
    For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?



    Galatians
    …25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is ourmother. 27For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have never travailed; because more are the children of the desolate woman, than of her who has a husband.”
     
  11. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Biblical basis for this?
     
  12. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✡Messianic✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    The Book of Ezra among other sources: (not my words below, but the original source is not link-able any longer)
    But I shall demonstrate, with Hashem's help, that the Torah does say that the mother carries the Jewish lineage.

    In the Book of Ezra we learn that a large number of Jews left Babylon to go up to Israel to rebuild Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Some time later, Ezra the Scribe came up as well. When he arrived, he bagen to teach Torah and the Torah's Laws to the people. He was told that a number of Jews had married non-Jewish women. When Ezra spoke to the people about this, they repented, and agreed to send away their wives and the children they had had with those wives. This is what the people told Ezra (Ezra 10:2-3):

    "We have transgressed against our G-d by marrying women who are foreign to the people. But there is still hope for Israel despite this. Let us now make a covenant with our G-d to expel all these women and those who have been born to them, in accordance with the bidding of Hashem and those eager to fulfill our G-d's Commandment, and let the Torah be obeyed."
    And indeed, the non-Jewish women and the children they had with them were all sent away. Now, if those children had been considered Jewish, why would they send them away? They sent them away because they were not considered Jewish, because their mothers were not Jewish.​
     
  13. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    This is a possible explanation but it is far from proof.
     
  14. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✡Messianic✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    Sure, it is not explicit, but implicit in the text; you asked for a "Biblical basis" which that could be. But combined with other passages we get a clearer picture of the practice:
    Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [i.e., the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

    Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel"
    (above from Judaism 101: Who Is a Jew?)

    Also, we should not discount the actual centuries of the practice in Judaism. As noted earlier in the thread, not all Jewish "denominations" practice matrilineal descent now, but most do and this is a recent development other than among the Karaits, which many Rabbinic Jews do not consider to be "Jewish".

    But as the sages say "Torah can be interpreted in 77 ways", so perhaps that is not all there is to it.
     
  15. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter

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    Scripture has only the lineage of Joseph.
     
  16. Rachel Rachel

    Rachel Rachel Messianic/Church of God 7th Day Supporter

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    Joseph married an Egyptian woman and his sons were counted among the 12 sons of Jacob. How do you account for that?
     
  17. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✡Messianic✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    For starts that was before G-d handed the written Torah to Moshe and was before he fullness of the faith of Judaism was realized on Mt. Sinai, so before one could be counted as "Jewish".
     
  18. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Would Jesus be of Israel if his mother had not passed it down to him?
     
  19. fat wee robin

    fat wee robin Newbie

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    I do put much thought into the détails ,and I would broadly agree what you have said ,that while humanity of a certain level existed on the earth prior to Adam , it was not until God breathed (the 'Holy Spirit' ) into 'man ', that he was able to have a relationship of 'equality ' with Him, so beginning a new sort of human being ,and the possibility of moving into the future at a higher level of being .
     
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  20. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    I believe the ten tribes are currently misplaced but at some stage their history and ancestry will be recognised. Here are two sources of interest among countless others.

    item1.-
    Flavius Josephus was a Jewish military commander, a Pharisee, and an historian of the first century A.D. He wrote this about the ten tribes of Israel who were in Asia:
    “...there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.”

    Item2-
    One of the oldest official documents showing Israelite migration is the Declaration of Arbroath in Scotland. This was written in 1320 by a long list of Scottish Earls and addressed to the Pope as a protest at the constant invasions by the English. It details the long journey from Egyptian captivity ending up in Scotland. The text of the Declaration of Arbroath

    Do check the above link, but here is a brief extract from the Latin text.-
    .......we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown.

    They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since.In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.

    Don't just meekly accept the conventional narrative about things, its been put there to downgrade the scriptures as relevant in people's minds.
    Just like Columbus discovering America, and father Christmas, its all deliberate disinformation to stop us seeking truth.
     
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