Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Jipsah]

A Rabbi's input isn't irrelevant.

Rather depends, doesn't it? All the rabbis I've known (total of two, actually) believe Jesus was a really wise man, end of. I happen to think their opinion is for the birds.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Man, I always love a good game of Chinese Checkers!

 

[Saint Steven]

We are appointed once to die and then the judgment. We are not afforded twice to consider ourselves dead to sin, once on this side of life, and another for the other side of life (or downgraded life).

We tend to assume the worst about judgment. Everyone will be judged. One of the options for any judgement is mercy. Jesus said... "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

 

[didactics]

(The Old One), you assume God will torture, forever, unrepentant sinners. That is not an established fact; therefore, you are speaking for God.

Let's see how good your German is, Der Alte:

Well, what do you think as a universalist, that even Satan himself will eventually be redeemed?

 

[WintersDust]

Rather depends, doesn't it? All the rabbis I've known (total of two, actually) believe Jesus was a really wise man, end of. I happen to think their opinion is for the birds.

Your opinion does not impugn the education of Rabbi's.

 

[RalphDaveWestfall]

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

Does eternal punishment necessarily have to be infinite punishment, which would be unjust in relation to the less-than- infinite amount of sin any person could ever commit?

Suppose Hitler is allocated X units of suffering in Hell for all his crimes against humanity. He gets half of it spread out through the first trillion years. In the next trillion he gets half of the remainder, and so on ad infinitum. His total suffering summed through all infinity will be X, not infinity.

The pain will also decline to very low levels after a few cycles, down to less than one tenth of one percent of the total by the tenth period (equivalent to a bad traffic day on the freeway?) Another ten cycles and it might be down to the mosquito bite level.

However no matter how many cycles he goes through, he will never pay the debt completely. Thus the punishment has to continue for eternity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What do the Jews have to do with this discussion?

Being that Jesus was Jewish and drew the essence of His ideas from his own culture, it only makes historical and contextual sense to understand how 1st century Jews approached their own religion.

 

[public hermit]

Well, what do you think as a universalist, that even Satan himself will eventually be redeemed?

Whatever is good will be redeemed and whatever is evil will come to nothing because that is its nature. What that looks like is not my business; all I need is true faith and hope in the God who succeeds.

 

[dowthut]

Being that Jesus was Jewish and drew His the essence of His ideas from his own culture, it only makes historical and contextual sense to understand how 1st century Jews approached their own religion.

Ahhh. But Jesus would not have used the word Hell! The Jews spoke of Sheol "the grave", never Hell

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ahhh. But Jesus would not have used the word Hell! The Jews spoke of Sheol "the grave", never Hell

Yes, of course. Jesus didn't speak English. He likely spoke in Aramaic. But then, too, we only have Jesus presented TO US, the readers, by way of writings articulated in Koine Greek. So, if there were nuances of difference in meaning that Jesus may have conveyed when He preached to the masses, the New Testament writers, particularly the Gospel writers, thought that these nuances needed to be expressed in different terms indicating different conceptual entities: Hades, Gehenna or Tartarus, etc. (Even Sheol).

Of course, you probably already knew this.

 

[didactics]

We tend to assume the worst about judgment. Everyone will be judged. One of the options for any judgement is mercy. Jesus said... "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

"Everyone" does not refer to believers and unbelievers alike. It is referring to believers as in being purified through suffering and persecution.

 

[Jipsah]

Well, we have a human justice system through our national and state governments. What the church claims that God is up to would be illegal on earth.

I have to noted here that under the Mosaic Law (given by God), nobody is ever tortured. The worst penalty for any crime is death. Just sayin'

 

[didactics]

Whatever is good will be redeemed and whatever is evil will come to nothing because that is its nature. What that looks like is not my business; all I need is true faith and hope in the God who succeeds.

The human race is tainted by a sinful nature so it cannot be said that people are basically good. Being made alienated from Christ because he withdrew his presence in the garden was a punishment, but withdrawing his grace is not evil. We were made subject to evil because that's what it means to know good and evil of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Hmm]

Does eternal punishment necessarily have to be infinite punishment, which would be unjust in relation to the less-than- infinite amount of sin any person could ever commit?

Suppose Hitler is allocated X units of suffering in Hell for all his crimes against humanity. He gets half of it spread out through the first trillion years. In the next trillion he gets half of the remainder, and so on ad infinitum. His total suffering summed through all infinity will be X, not infinity.

The pain will also decline to very low levels after a few cycles, down to less than one tenth of one percent of the total by the tenth period (equivalent to a bad traffic day on the freeway?) Another ten cycles and it might be down to the mosquito bite level.

However no matter how many cycles he goes through, he will never pay the debt completely. Thus the punishment has to continue for eternity.

It's an interesting idea! I don't think it's plausible though because of all the "universalist" passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:22 "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" and, also, does anyone pay their debt completely?

Most Christians probably believe that Hitler would be spared his X-suffering if he had become a Christian before he died but this would not have actually paid his debt off. Can we ever really make full amends for the damage we do to one another?

Universalism actually takes sin more seriously than Infernalism because it takes scripture literally when it says that we will all be salted with fire, i.e. we will all go through a probably painful process of purification in the next age/aion, and labeling oneself a Christian won't avoid that.

 

[public hermit]

The human race is tainted by a sinful nature so it cannot be said that people are basically good. Being made alienated from Christ because he withdrew his presence in the garden was a punishment, but withdrawing his grace is not evil. We were made subject to evil because that's what it means to know good and evil of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That all sounds good to me, but is the separation eternal?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, what do you think as a universalist, that even Satan himself will eventually be redeemed?

....No, NOOOOOOO! Don't ask that!

 

[public hermit]

....No, NOOOOOOO! Don't ask that!

I evaded better than Origen, so...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's an interesting idea! I don't think it's plausible though because of all the "universalist" passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:22 "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" and, also, does anyone pay their debt completely?

Most Christians probably believe that Hitler would be spared his X-suffering if he had become a Christian before he died but this would not have actually paid his debt off. Can we ever really make full amends for the damage we do to one another?

Universalism actually takes sin more seriously than Infernalism because it takes scripture literally when it says that we will all be salted with fire, i.e. we will all go through a probably painful process of purification in the next age/aion, and labeling oneself a Christian won't avoid that.

I've always been under the impression that the salting happens here in this life rather than later.

But, I could be wrong.

 

[Der Alte]

(The Old One), you assume God will torture, forever, unrepentant sinners. That is not an established fact; therefore, you are speaking for God.
Let's see how good your German is, Der Alte:

I omitted the media I don't do videos. Might get an unwanted bug. The title is "The egg of Satan." I assume nothing. I quote scripture. I beleive Jesus when He said, "eternal punishment."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[WintersDust]

Once you're saved you're always saved because it's a promise of God. God is so holy that he could not break his promise.

Amen. God is not a man that he should lie.