Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Scott Lary]

Dr. David Bentley Hart has written and spoken on this topic extensively, including the incorporation of Eternal Damnation / Obliteration into Christianity and why it happened in the 5th century. But you don't really need to know the details. Just ask yourself: Would your loving, omniscient, Father create you knowing that he was going to cause you to spend eternity burning in hell? Are you prepared to spend eternity listening to the screams of your mother and children that didn't make it to Heaven? I do believe there is a "hell" in the sense of a state (probably a very unpleasant state) that will move all to embrace Salvation. But I also believe all eventually are saved.

 

[public hermit]

Dr. David Bentley Hall has written and spoken on this topic extensively, including the incorporation of Eternal Damnation / Obliteration into Christianity and why it happened in the 5th century. But you don't really need to know the details. Just ask yourself: Would your loving, omniscient, Father create you knowing that he was going to cause you to spend eternity burning in hell? Are you prepared to spend eternity listening to the screams of your mother and children that didn't make it to Heaven? I do believe there is a "hell" in the sense of a state (probably a very unpleasant state) that will move all to embrace Salvation. But I also believe all eventually are saved.

I believe the same. I believe in hell, and I believe that no one wants to enter the divine presence full of ways that are not the good in which we are created. But I hold a very high view of God's ability and love. I am post-Reformed, which means I haven't changed a bit, except I now believe God will succeed.

 

[Hmm]

That is a point you might have to repeat.

Yes, the word "hell" causes endless trouble! When I think about this issue I always think of the words of Humpty Dumpty. I know he was only an egg but he was still quite a good debater.

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

 

[Saint Steven]

I think the idea is that God, who lacks nothing and needs nothing from us, is infinitely offended by finite offenses. It's petty, sure, but infinitely petty, which makes it divine.

Right.
It's the double standard. God expects us to love our enemies, yet is perfectly justified in torturing his enemies for all eternity for a finite "crime" which was unavoidable on our part. (born into sin?) An inherent problem that we didn't create. (if I can say that) ???

 

[public hermit]

Yes, the word "hell" causes endless trouble! When I think about this issue I always think of the words of Humpty Dumpty. I know he was only an egg but he was still quite a good debater.

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

Q.E.D.

 

[Saint Steven]

Which leaves us further to question: what is some thing called "justice"?

I'm not even sure I know what that is ...

Fortunately for me, everyone else seems to know. And they know exactly.

Well, we have a human justice system through our national and state governments. What the church claims that God is up to would be illegal on earth.

 

[John Gooch]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Jesus we the infinite breadth and length and height of God’s love for us. That's why the Bible urges us to fully embrace our faith because only then can we begin to trust and rest in God's love. "There is no fear in love."

The name "Noah" comes from the Hebrew word "Noach" which means "rest" or "repose", and perhaps resting in God's love is the true meaning of embarking on God's Ark.

Fear robs us of our assurance of God’s love. Every time we doubt His love we step into the realm of fear, and our relationship with God is stolen from us. And this is all that we get from the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). The gift that keeps on giving /s.

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

"Indeed, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10:19.

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

In the Seventh Day Adventists, they emphasise, that the Dead, are dull, and not able to do so much, and that Eternal Punishing is unlike Jesus and God.
In the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints, they emphasise, that the Dead, though they seem dull, as though they were far away, and not able to do much here, but that Eternal Punishing is real.
Both do seem to have Verses to support their view points.
But I think, that both can be right, that for God and Jesus, an on-of switch for Life is far from impossible, and that some people when switched on, always are stuck in a punishing place for some reason, but would only be switched on for exhibit purposes, the the punishing place its actuality, is a thing that will exist forever.
So in conclusion, both are able to be right !
I believe that Biblical Numerics are a valuable Theo Knowledge The Exact Moment of the Crucifixion !

 

[shepherdsword]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Jesus we the infinite breadth and length and height of God’s love for us. That's why the Bible urges us to fully embrace our faith because only then can we begin to trust and rest in God's love. "There is no fear in love."

The name "Noah" comes from the Hebrew word "Noach" which means "rest" or "repose", and perhaps resting in God's love is the true meaning of embarking on God's Ark.

Fear robs us of our assurance of God’s love. Every time we doubt His love we step into the realm of fear, and our relationship with God is stolen from us. And this is all that we get from the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). The gift that keeps on giving /s.

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

"Indeed, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10:19.

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

A nice thought but it is totally contrary to what the bible teaches. This is what John had to say when he saw Jesus:

Rv 1:17
and when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.

Since John is the one who wrote that verse you quoted it gives us something to consider.
Now, it is true that we who belong to Jesus will never have to worry about the lake of fire, it's not the same as those who reject him:

Rv 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We need to teach what the bible teaches and not be led astray by deceitful sentimentality.

 

[WintersDust]

Sarcasm?

No.

Not sure why you say that. But yes, they truly are unforgiveable if they go unpaid for.

They were paid for.

 

[Der Alte]

Dr. David Bentley Hart has written and spoken on this topic extensively, including the incorporation of Eternal Damnation / Obliteration into Christianity and why it happened in the 5th century. But you don't really need to know the details. Just ask yourself: Would your loving, omniscient, Father create you knowing that he was going to cause you to spend eternity burning in hell? Are you prepared to spend eternity listening to the screams of your mother and children that didn't make it to Heaven? I do believe there is a "hell" in the sense of a state (probably a very unpleasant state) that will move all to embrace Salvation. But I also believe all eventually are saved.

Unfortunately, there is no scripture which says that.

 

[Hmm]

A nice thought but it is totally contrary to what the bible teaches.

It's totally contrary to what has been taught to you, you mean.

The truth does not have to be unpleasant btw. It can also be nice, and a nasty thought can be wrong.

 

[public hermit]

Right.
It's the double standard. God expects us to love our enemies, yet is perfectly justified in torturing his enemies for all eternity for a finite "crime" which was unavoidable on our part. (born into sin?) An inherent problem that we didn't create. (if I can say that) ???

It is a double standard. God revealed cannot be worse than we are. That, alone, ought to raise eyebrows.

 

[shepherdsword]

It's totally contrary to what has been taught to you, you mean.

The truth does not have to be unpleasant btw. It can also be nice, and a nasty thought can be wrong.

No, I mean what the scriptures explicitly teaches. The truth isn't founded on wishful thinking. It isn't always pleasant. I have already posted what John saw concerning eternal punishment. Let's examine what the Lord Jesus had to say:

Mk 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I actually wish you were right. I have no desire to wish this on anyone. It's just that I have to go with what is plainly stated in scripture and not wishful thinking.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, we have a human justice system through our national and state governments. What the church claims that God is up to would be illegal on earth.

Yes, we have a human justice system, Steven, one that relies upon common law practice. But what "the church" has to be concerned about from that justice system will depend upon exactly what the issue is.

 

[Der Alte]

It is a double standard. God revealed cannot be worse than we are. That, alone, ought to raise eyebrows.

God, not man decides what is/is not worse.

 

[Saint Steven]

"Should"?
I think they ARE infinite sins, since they are committed against infinite God.

I don't follow the logic on that.
Granted, it's a catchy apologetic, but doesn't really make sense to me.
I think only God is infinite. Why make sin equal to God?

This is actually a HUGE problem with Damnationism. It makes sin eternal. Yikes!

 

[Hmm]

No, I mean what the scriptures explicitly teaches. The truth isn't founded on wishful thinking. It isn't always pleasant. I have already posted what John saw concerning eternal punishment. Let's examine what the Lord Jesus had to say:

Mk 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I actually wish you were right. I have no desire to wish this on anyone. It's just that I have to go with what is plainly stated in scripture and not wishful thinking.

That's the thing though isn't it? It's not explicit and it's wishful thinking on your part that it is.

 

[didactics]

I agree, no one believes in God because of knockdown arguments, proof texts or analysis. I think most people first apprehend God in what's around them, the love and kindness of people they encounter, the beauty of nature, the arts, and even science and maths, and they begin to wonder whether these things might not be a reflection of their supreme expression in a personal God.

To me, Christianity reveals the perfectly loving and merciful nature of God and I agree with David Bentley Hart when he says that pretty much everyone who believes in ECT, or who believes that they believe in it, only does so because they think that Christianity requires it. And so they try to ignore the cognitive dissonance of holding the view that God will punish you forever if your faith isn't quite up to it at the point of death while still trying to maintain that God is loving and just. But just like with us, I guess, God can either be a torturer or loving and just. Neither we or He can be both.

I don't think God requires us to be ECT but I do think it's important. You may not think hell is eternal, that's one thing, but it sounds like you are advocating universalism. There are some that think hell is not eternal, but they may not believe it is remedial.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
— John 14:6

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
— Hebrews 9:27

You may also consider "the wages of sin is death" (Ro 6:23). Death is like the arresting officer. 10/10 will die and your death will be evidence of your sin. Do all commit sin? Some die prematurely before the age of accountability but we all have a sin nature. Yes, I'm referring to original sin. We don't just need a savior from hell, we need a savior from sin.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
— Romans 3:23-25

That word propitiation is an important word. It is talking about appeasing the wrath of God. John the Baptist used very strong words to those who opposed him, calling them "brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Mt 3:7). How will they be saved from there sins, because they have Abraham as their father?

 

[Hmm]

it sounds like you are advocating universalism

I am.

 

[Saint Steven]

... it sounds like you are advocating universalism. ...

You say that like it's a bad thing. - LOL