Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[public hermit]

Nonsense! What Jews believe about "hell" today may or may not be relevant.
Here is a link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna.
Link: GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
This article documents from Jewish sources that in Israel at least 700 years before and during the time of Jesus there was a place of eternal, fiery punishment which they called both Gehinnom and Sheol written in the 225BC LXX and NT as Gehenna and hades.

These understandings are not based on the Hebrew scriptures but on the Targums (Aramaic interpretations of the Hebrew scriptures) and Jewish apocalyptic literature, e.g., Enoch. If anything, Babylonian (or perhaps Egyptian) influence crept into their interpretations of Sheol and Gehenna. Nice try, but no hell. I also think your claim of 700 years is a stretch. These are from the intertestamental period. How interesting that you keep screaming nonsense because "the Bible says" and yet it doesn't.

 

[WintersDust]

Nonsense! What Jews believe about "hell" today may or may not be relevant.
Here is a link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna.
Link: GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
This article documents from Jewish sources that in Israel at least 700 years before and during the time of Jesus there was a place of eternal, fiery punishment which they called both Gehinnom and Sheol written in the 225BC LXX and NT as Gehenna and hades.

I'll disagree.

Sheol: the GRAVE? Gehenna? Hades? HELL?

 

[Der Alte]

These understandings are not based on the Hebrew scriptures but on the Targums (Aramaic interpretations of the Hebrew scriptures) and Jewish apocalyptic literature, e.g., Enoch. If anything, Babylonian influence crept into their interpretations of Sheol and Gehenna. Nice try, but no hell. I also think your claim of 700 years is a stretch. These are from the intertestamental period. How interesting that you keep screaming nonsense because "the Bible says" and yet it doesn't.

Nonsense! FYI the Targums were the Aramaic translations of the scripture.
TARGUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Just as valid as the Hebrew. Your unsupported opinion is not relevant! There was multiple scripture quoted in the article. Enoch is mentioned 14 times. So it meant something to the Jews, Again your opinion is not relevant.
According the 100+year old Jewish encyclopedia which I linked to, before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol which was written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as gehenna and hades.<period> End of discussion.
You think 700 years is not correct? Read the first paragraph of the Gehenna article.

 

[public hermit]

Nonsense! FYI the Targums were the Aramaic translations of the scripture.
TARGUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Just as valid as the Hebrew. Your unsupported opinion is not relevant! There was multiple scripture quoted in the article. Enoch is mentioned 14 times. So it meant something to the Jews, Again your opinion is not relevant.
According the 100+year old Jewish encyclopedia which I linked to, before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol which was written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as gehenna and hades.<period> End of discussion.
You think 700 years is not correct? Read the first paragraph of the Gehenna article.

They were translations with interpretations, which is just what they're doing with the terms Sheol and Gehenna. Learn your own material.

I quote from your source:
As an intepretation of the Hebrew text of the Bible the Targum...

To be exact, they are Aramaic paraphrases of the Hebrew scriptures, i.e., interpretations.

 

[Der Alte]

I'll disagree.
Sheol: the GRAVE? Gehenna? Hades? HELL?

Disagree all you like. Your objection is irrelevant. What one [1] modern Jew writes without citing any historical sources is almost as irrelevant as your objection! I didn't make this stuff up. I quoted the 100+ year old Jewish Encyclopedia compiled and written by Jewish scholars, in 1906. Take another look at the article pay particular attention to the bibliography at the bottom nine [9] sources in addition to the sources referenced in the article.

 

[Der Alte]

They were translations with interpretations, which is just what they're doing with the terms Sheol and Gehenna. Learn your own material.
I quote from your source:
As an intepretation of the Hebrew text of the Bible the Targum...
To be exact, they are Aramaic paraphrases of the Hebrew scriptures, i.e., interpretations.

Still wrong! Interpretation of the Hebrew text. Right! Hebrew interpreted into Aramaic. And we have the Hebrew interpreted into English!

 

[public hermit]

Still wrong! Interpretation of the Hebrew text. Right! Hebrew interpreted into Aramaic. And we have the Hebrew interpreted into English!

Paraphrases; they are not a strict translations, and I know you know better so stop trying to hoodwink me because I definitely know better.

 

[WintersDust]

Disagree all you like. Your objection is irrelevant. What one [1] modern Jew writes without citing any historical sources is almost as irrelevant as your objection! I didn't make this stuff up. I quoted the 100+ year old Jewish Encyclopedia compiled and written by Jewish scholars, in 1906. Take another look at the article pay particular attention to the bibliography at the bottom nine [9] sources in addition to the sources referenced in the article.

A Rabbi's input isn't irrelevant.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ours is a faith rooted in the Jewish tradition. God is the same yesterday ,today,eternally.
An eternal punishment for finite sins is not of God.
That notion entered the faith around 300A.D.

Do Jews Believe in Hell?
What Is the Jewish Belief on Hell? By:Aron Moss
Aron Moss is rabbi of the Nefesh Community in Sydney, Australia, and is a frequent contributor to Chabad.org.

Why do you call them "finite" sins? Are they not committed against infinite God?

 

[Der Alte]

A Rabbi's input isn't irrelevant.

Thank you once again for your irrelevant input. What modern Jews believe about hell or anything else is totally irrelevant.
Here is a link to the modern 1972 Encyhclopedia Judaica
Link: Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor) (jevzajcg.me)
Here is what it has to say.

1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.​

 

[Der Alte]

Paraphrases; they are not a strict translations, and I know you know better so stop trying to hoodwink me because I definitely know better.

I quote sources NOT the irrelevant opinions of ppl who believe as I do.
Here is the first paragraph from the Jewish Encyclopedia article on the Targums.

Targum-The Aramaic translation of the Bible. It forms a part of the Jewish traditional literature, and in its inception is as early as the time of the Second Temple. The verb

, from which the noun

is formed, is used in Ezra iv. 7 in reference to a document written in Aramaic, although "Aramit" (A. V. "in the Syrian tongue") is added.
TARGUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

Targum is called "translation" twenty-two times, in the targum article. You want to argue go argue with them, But they have been dead for over 100+ years.
But this is all irrelevant anyway. Targum is NOT mentioned anywhere in the gehenna article which I quoted. You need something to wipe that egg off?

 

[WintersDust]

Thank you once again for your irrelevant input. What modern Jews believe about hell or anything else is totally irrelevant.
Here is a link to the modern 1972 Encyhclopedia Judaica
Link: Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor) (jevzajcg.me)
Here is what it has to say.

1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.​

Thank you for your time.

God Bless.

 

[WintersDust]

Why do you call them "finite" sins? Are they not committed against infinite God?

They should be infinite sins?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Nonsense! What Jews believe about "hell" today may or may not be relevant.
Here is a link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna.
Link: GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
This article documents from Jewish sources that in Israel at least 700 years before and during the time of Jesus there was a place of eternal, fiery punishment which they called both Gehinnom and Sheol written in the 225BC LXX and NT as Gehenna and hades.

Der Alte, may I ask why this article from a 1906 edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia is "THE" final authority on this topic? Wouldn't it be consistent to say that it may...or may not be...relevant in the overall assessment? Also, perhaps I'm shortsighted, but am I supposed to care what "the book" of Enoch says all that much?

I'm just wondering. I like to pose trouble like that ...

 

[Saint Steven]

Once you're saved you're always saved because it's a promise of God. God is so holy that he could not break his promise.

Agreed.

We cannot undo, by an act of our own will, what only God could do in the first place.

 

[Saint Steven]

Luckily I'm a lot taller than I was when I was five years old (I'm now seven and three-quarters) and so I can easily see over your imposing wall into the Land of Freedom beyond, to become needlessly Mel Gibson/William Wallace-like.

I'm impressed...
You are very articulate for a seven and three-quarters year old.
But maybe something was lost in the translation here. Not sure...

Just goes to show you that you can't trust a translation. - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

Who is Hul anyway? Friend of yours?

Hul if I know. - LOL

Oh the irony...

 

[Saint Steven]

Why do you call them "finite" sins? Are they not committed against infinite God?

Sounds like a perversion of "justice".
Basically an apologetic to justify eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape while blaming the victims.

I thought God was in the business of restoration and mercy.

The gospel of hell:
"Accept the free gift of salvation today. Or, if you prefer, you will be incinerated." (spiritual extortion)

 

[public hermit]

Sounds like a perversion of "justice".
Basically an apologetic to justify eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape while blaming the victims.

I thought God was in the business of restoration and mercy.

The gospel of hell:
"Accept the free gift of salvation today. Or, if you prefer, you will be incinerated." (spiritual extortion)

I think the idea is that God, who lacks nothing and needs nothing from us, is infinitely offended by finite offenses. It's petty, sure, but infinitely petty, which makes it divine.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sounds like a perversion of "justice".
Basically an apologetic to justify eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape while blaming the victims.

I thought God was in the business of restoration and mercy.

The gospel of hell:
"Accept the free gift of salvation today. Or, if you prefer, you will be incinerated." (spiritual extortion)

Which leaves us further to question: what is some thing called "justice"?

I'm not even sure I know what that is ...

Fortunately for me, everyone else seems to know. And they know exactly.