Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Jipsah]

Yes, like Annihilationists.
Although they may actually believe it is remedial, in the sense that it "remedies" the sin problem.

In my case I don't think it's a matter of remedying the sin problem. It's more a matter of not having made the cut, and not receiving the Gift of God which is eternal life.

I see nothing in Scripture that says that everyone lives forever by default, which is a basic assumption of damnationism. ECT folks don't believe that eternal life is a gift, they believe that it's just something that everyone has and in the end either becomes a gift for the blessed or a curse for the damned. In the words of the Brother Buford, "Dat just ain't right." The wages of sin is death, eternal nonexistence, return to the nothingness that we were before we were born. Nothing left of a sinner of his/her sins to pollute God's perfect creation. Neither ever existed. Nothing to be remembered, nothing to be mourned, nothing to feel any connection with, complete annihilation. As something consumed by fire, leaving no trace.

A sad end? Not really. The sinner is gone, unremembered. In the end, they were nothing at all, ever. Those granted the Gift of God though our Lord live forever in unalloyed joy. No shadows of past ills to darken the eternal light of God. I believe that if you read the Scripture for what it says rather than what our various doctrines say it really means then that's the only rational conclusion to be reached.

 

[public hermit]

I omitted the media I don't do videos. Might get an unwanted bug. The title is "The egg of Satan." I assume nothing. I quote scripture. I beleive Jesus when He said, "eternal punishment."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

It was a recipe for bread, but you got the title right. Good enough.

 

[Jipsah]

Well, what do you think as a universalist, that even Satan himself will eventually be redeemed?

Would you have a problem if God chose to forgive Old Nick his rebellion and ghastly sins? I reckon that would be above my pay grade.

 

[Der Alte]

...

We tend to assume the worst about judgment. Everyone will be judged. One of the options for any judgement is mercy. Jesus said... "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

About once a week or so this verse gets quoted out-of-context as a UR proof text.
First let's consider this. Where is it ever written that anyone is saved by being salted? That's right it ain't! There go those pesky crickets again.
What does being salted mean?

Leviticus 2:13
(13) And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.​

The meat offering had to be unblemished and acceptable before it was salted. "Salting" did not make the unclean, clean. "Everyone" in Mark 9:49 means everyone who is already clean and acceptable.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said: ↑
We tend to assume the worst about judgment. Everyone will be judged. One of the options for any judgement is mercy. Jesus said... "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

"Everyone" does not refer to believers and unbelievers alike. It is referring to believers as in being purified through suffering and persecution.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[didactics]

Would you have a problem if God chose to forgive Old Nick his rebellion and ghastly sins? I reckon that would be above my pay grade.

So, in other words you don't know?

ECT folks don't believe that eternal life is a gift, they believe that it's just something that everyone has and in the end either becomes a gift for the blessed or a curse for the damned.

That's not what ECT folks believe. Would you call it eternal life if you suffered conscious torment eternally? There is a reason why a distinction is made by calling the one eternal punishment and the other eternal life. The former is a very downgraded life.

 

[WintersDust]

He does indeed. But "Hell" with the capital "H" is not a biblical word. It's a Norse word that's reminiscent of Dante or a smiling plumber when he presents you with his bill.

Jesus said "aionios kolais" which means "correction or pruning lasting for an age". Our word eon comes from aionios and it indicates a long time but not an eternity. The phrase has is translated as "eternal punishment" in most, but by no means all, English Bible translations and ECT is based on nothing more than that, a crass mistranslation.

The Bible doesn't talk about Hell at all. It talks about Gehenna, Hades, Sheol and Tartarus instead, all of which have different meanings but none of which mean "eternal hell". But none of them are the sort of place you want to go to, even if it is for a time-limited duration, which is why God warns us of them. Correction is never an easy thing.

But tainting God with the ECT brush is not the sort of place we want to go to either. It means saying goodbye to a God of love.

You might enjoy this article.

Chapter 18 – Jesus Christ did not Teach or Believe in Hell
Misunderstood and Mistranslated Words of Jesus

 

[didactics]

Saint Steven said: ↑
We tend to assume the worst about judgment. Everyone will be judged. One of the options for any judgement is mercy. Jesus said... "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

I don't just read verses in isolation, also consider post #164.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I omitted the media I don't do videos. Might get an unwanted bug. The title is "The egg of Satan." I assume nothing. I quote scripture. I beleive Jesus when He said, "eternal punishment."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

What kind of scholars of English know the meaning of English from the 5th century, Der Alte?

 

[Der Alte]

It was a recipe for bread, but you got the title right. Good enough.

Quick someone call EMS PH paid me a compliment I think I'm having cardiac arrest.
Auf ein mal wann ich war kleine jung... That's German for Once upon a time when I was a young boy. I learned to speak German about 70 years ago in Fontana, Ca. After which I was stationed in Germany 5.5 years. In the 60s I tested out and was awarded 8 credit hours altho I never set foot in a classroom.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't follow the logic on that.
Granted, it's a catchy apologetic, but doesn't really make sense to me.
I think only God is infinite. Why make sin equal to God?

This is actually a HUGE problem with Damnationism. It makes sin eternal. Yikes!

It doesn't make sin equal with God. It makes sin "dependent on" (as with a parasite) the nature of God.

There are infinite theoretical points in a line segment. That doesn't make a line segment nor its points nor theory equal with God.

 

[Der Alte]

What kind of scholars of English know the meaning of English from the 5th century, Der Alte?

Smart ones.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are infinite theoretical points in a line segment. That doesn't make a line segment nor its points nor theory equal with God.

In my view a line segment consists of only two vector points, a beginning and an end. The line simply connects to two vector points. And since the line segment has a beginning and an end, it is not infinite.

But perhaps your line segment is raster based rather than vector based. - LOL

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well everyone, I've lost most of my fear of an eternal Hell, so I guess I'll retire for the evening.

 

[Der Alte]

You might enjoy this article.
[Link omitted]

I found this garbage at your link.

"The truth of the matter is that there is not one single word in the Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts of the Bible that means hell. Hell is a man-invented, pagan, unchristian, heretical belief that was first embraced and christianised by Roman Catholicism and incorporated into the Bible by Jerome through his Latin Vulgate in the early history of Christianity. Also, Jesus Christ never spoke about ‘everlasting’ fire and punishment, as erroneously translated in verses such as Matthew 18:8, 25:41 and 25:46" ​

 

[Mark Quayle]

In my view a line segment consists of only two vector points, a beginning and an end. The line simply connects to two vector points. And since the line segment has a beginning and an end, it is not infinite.

But perhaps your line segment is raster based rather than vector based. - LOL

I didn't say it has no beginning nor end. That would be a line, not a line segment. But cut the segment in half, and each half in half, and so on... infinite.

Your view seems a bit ...pixelated, it seems to me.

 

[public hermit]

Quick someone call EMS PH paid me a compliment I think I'm having cardiac arrest.
Auf ein mal wann ich war kleine jung... That's German for Once upon a time when I was a young boy. I learned to speak German about 70 years in Fontana, Ca. After which I was stationed in Germany 5.6 years. In the 60s I tested out and was awarded 8 credit hours altho I never set foot in a classroom.

All the respect, Sir.

 

[Der Alte]

Well everyone, I've lost most of my fear of an eternal Hell, so I guess I'll retire for the evening.

I never had any to lose.

 

[Scott Lary]

Well, what do you think as a universalist, that even Satan himself will eventually be redeemed?

I ask this in genuine ignorance: Was Satan created in God's image by God? Is he a god like God? Does He enjoy God's omnipotence?

Anyway, eternity is a long time and the least of my concerns is if Satan is redeemed, and I don't think it is really relevant to the rest of us. If he is redeemable, I hope he is.

 

[ulrichburke]

Well hold on, all of you, with this 'Gehenna' and 'Sheol' and everything else theory - I think, arguably - and I'm prepared to be yelled at for this - we're getting the Basic Bible Story wrong. (This is not a goad, it's an Honest Opinion. Mine.)

When Azrael got kicked out of Heaven, he fell to Earth and stayed there. Now if you accept the Devil rules in Hell (whatever name you use, I'm sticking with 'Hell' for this to include 'Gehenna', 'Sheol' and all the other names for ease sake!) then Azrael rules on Earth, which is why you have temptation. So Earth is, literally, Hell. The phrase 'Hell on Earth' is literally correct.

Now the only way to get from Hell to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. But that's not straightforward, as God only wants 144,000 people in Heaven (that's what the Bible says, folks!) As the guy above says, the Bible is rooted in Judaism. It is. Twelve tribes of Jews. Twelve thousand from each tribe. That's got the 144,000 sorted. The rest of us? Ashes to ashes..... So unless you're Jewish and part of the right tribes, you've got zero chance of getting there anyway. That's what the Bible says.

As far as Jesus' love goes, don't go overboard on that one either. Have a look at Revelations. Jesus leads the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse AND he chucks the Seven Bowls at us, the second of which empties the seas of life (and the other 6 aren't exactly loving cups either!) Jesus holds the keys to Heaven AND Hell, it says that in Revelations too. Why is Hell thought of as a place of fire and torment? Because the area of Heaven Azreal came from happened to be volcanic. That's the only reason.

God's love? Iffy. In the Old Testament, one of 'em kills 2,038,344. The other one kills 10. Loving God has the smaller total, right? Wrong. He's the BEEG number! I suppose as He created us, He's allowed to kill us. But He also allows a little rape (Judges) hates disabled people like me (Leviticus, amongst other places) and encourages bloodshed and war (Genesis 15:16 for starters!)

Also, I don't get this 'Jesus is God's ONLY Begotten Son' business. Jesus had brothers. (Mark 6). He also had 2 sisters but, the Bible being a tad chauvenistic, only His Brothers' names are recorded.

So I've never understood this 'Love Jesus and you'll Go to Heaven' business. That's NOT what the Bible says (unless you're part of the right Jewish tribes). However, to fill churches, that IS what the Preachers say! Preachers of all faiths paraphrase their books to make their belief's messages more tolerable to those they're aimed at, to fill their places of worship (and collection plates!) We're NOT as bad as those who preach the Koran (where it says men and women are equal but try telling an Arab husband that!) but we still do it!

Nope, I'm not trying to be goading. It's just I love the Bible (the KJV, not the other versions) and have read most of it and it annoys me a TAD when people quote the preachers' version, not what it ACTUALLY says!

Prove me wrong, folks!

Yours respectfully

Chris.