Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[shepherdsword]

Oh boy... - LOL
We seem to be at an impasse.

What do you like best about hell, since you are willing to fight tooth and claw to preserve it? There must some value in it to you, but what?

I think you misunderstand. I am not fighting to preserve anything but the truth itself. I actually wish you were right. I wish ECT on no one. It's just it is so plainly stated in scripture that you can't miss it if you are honest.

 

[Hmm]

Two main components, belief and fear.

1) Believe in hell AND fearful of it
2) Believe in hell but NOT fearful of it
3) Don't believe in hell AND fearful of it (irrational fear)
4) Don't believe in hell and NOT fearful of it

I was in group two. Believed in hell but was NOT fearful of it. I felt isolated from the "danger". I believed in it, but it was a distant thing. Yes, it was as if I was at a safe distance. Nothing to worry about or be afraid of. Me? In hell? No way! I lived in a heaven bubble. My good Christian family and church would protect me. Although, I don't remember ever even rationalizing about why I shouldn't be afraid. It was like was a problem for the world at large, but nothing to do with my world.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought a group two was possible but obviously it is!

It's human nature I guess to want to be in the "heaven bubble" you describe. We're pretty self-absorbed and we tend to think God is there to serve us. So if we imagine that we're safe in a bubble and God is going to punish the outsiders, we see it as Him loving us. It was a compassionate act to leave the bubble.

And human nature is hard to change I guess. Two thousand years after Jesus and we're still failing spectacularly with his most basic teachings. But maybe we've made some progress. We don't believe in slavery anymore and perhaps in another two thousand years we'll stop believing in eternal torture by a partialist God who happens to hate everyone we do.

 

[Saint Steven]

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought a group two was possible but obviously it is!

Probably like hearing about someone who is on death row at a prison.
I believe that a terrible thing is about to happen to them, but I have no need for personal fear of it.

Assuming the person on death row was a stranger to me. However, if I knew them personally, or even worse, if they were family that I loved, that's a whole other story. Very reasonable to have fear then.

The application to hell is obvious, but who can understand the callousness of some Christians toward this?

 

[Der Alte]

...

He does indeed. But "Hell" with the capital "H" is not a biblical word. It's a Norse word that's reminiscent of Dante or a smiling plumber when he presents you with his bill.
Jesus said "aionios kolais" which means "correction or pruning lasting for an age". Our word eon comes from aionios and it indicates a long time but not an eternity. The phrase has is translated as "eternal punishment" in most, but by no means all, English Bible translations and ECT is based on nothing more than that, a crass mistranslation.
The Bible doesn't talk about Hell at all. It talks about Gehenna, Hades, Sheol and Tartarus instead, all of which have different meanings but none of which mean "eternal hell". But none of them are the sort of place you want to go to, even if it is for a time-limited duration, which is why God warns us of them. Correction is never an easy thing.
But tainting God with the ECT brush is not the sort of place we want to go to either. It means saying goodbye to a God of love.\

...

Everything in red is patently false. I have conclusively demonstrated this more than once by quotes from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Jewish Talmud. Foot stomping, hand wringing and adamant denials do NOT disprove anything.
Here is a link to my most recent post citing these 3 sources. These historical Jewish sources have never been refuted and I am convinced never will be.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

 

[Der Alte]

@Hmm Re: post Losing the fear of an eternal hell

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[David Lowery]

How does this apply to salvation in your view?

Yes sir, joyful. I was thinking, finally, I can release that word. Maybe another can receive that in their heart. Salvation?

Salvation is a very low bar for entry, I don't think Jesus can set it any lower, he made himself a slave to all and is exalted above all, I believe (Mark 10:43-45) points to both the disciples and Him. See how He points to being first? Its an upside down kingdom, we should seek first the servant's heart and then as imitators, a slave's heart because a servant does things for pay, but a slave is compelled to do a service, freely. This comes from a love that surpasses all knowledge and fills you with the fullness of God. (The website points to an interpretation where slave is replaced with servant, slave is the correct interpretation).

We should work out our salvation with fear and trembling as Paul writes in (Philippians 2:12) at first but it becomes an intimate relationship and a reliance on Him for strength. I worry for people that do not have this progression. One might say, "Well, I'm saved, so lets go back into the world doing what I did before." Did you really repent and change your mind? Salvation is met with a call to come out of the world, not join back in. There should be evidence of him building you and separation occurring, an increase. That's what I love about the fear of the Lord, at first its fear of condemnation (as we share in the world's judgement) but then it shifts to fear of ever leaving His house. The prodigal son, returned to his Father's house and was a bestowed a new robe (Isaiah 61:10), a ring (which is to be a son) and sandals (of peace and to walk the path for He is a light to our feet) because the prodigal son saw the world held nothing for him.

The views I expressed are more of a higher calling and for reward. I would not categorize it as a prerequisite for salvation, more of a maturing aspect. That and a push to seek in one's heart not how man perceives a thing but to receive a sight that is higher than our own. I don't like all this division that I see, the separation of groups from the body and in truth, this is men looking at men and not their God. Like in the book of Job, Job's friends were wise in their own eyes but it took a young man to get them to look at God. The kingdom is built by a child-like faith because a child will sit at the feet of his Father and learn from him.

It's also more of a question of living in victory in this life, 'overcoming the world' as Jesus would say (Revelation 3:21). How does one over come the world? To be born of God and belief in the son. (1 John 5:4-5)

 

[Saint Steven]

It's human nature I guess to want to be in the "heaven bubble" you describe.

I had a visual image of a herd of zebra when I read your sentence. - LOL

The lions attack and pull down a few outsiders, but the zebras in the center of the herd are in that aforementioned safety bubble. And as far as I know, the zebras never do anything about the lions. Just a grizzly fact of life. The lions pulling apart your braying relatives. What to do, what to do... ???

The church seems to treat the hell doctrine like that. Just a grizzly fact of life. (created by our loving God) Gee, thanks.

 

[David's Harp]

Saint Steven said: ↑
I find it interesting that both the church and the occult believe in hell. Why?

If hell was true, you would think the occult would use it as a tool to discredit Christianity. But, they seem to cherish the fear factor as well. Why?

Good question.
I'm not even sure "occult" is the right word to express what I am trying to say here.

Originally I wanted to say "Satanism", but that's too narrow and specific. I notice that a lot of the death metal musical groups play on hellish themes. Why would they align themselves this way and still be anti-God and anti-Christian? A curious thing.

You would think that a better strategy for those who are anti-God and anti-Christian would be to take a position against the hell that the church holds.

Well I think it's important to state that occult, coming front the Latin occultus, means 'hidden'. It's like how satan masquerades as an angel of light. He hides under something proposing good.

As to death metal, or indeed any current forms of media that are referencing hell, do these not (mostly) come under the guise of entertainment?
As such, I would see this as more of a parody, or even a mocking, of what would be the reality.

Such is the twisted nature of satan, that he would command the entertainment industry through a 'foolish' representation of reality to turn people toward a more 'realistic' nature through other systems of thought, while the ones who have no interest in exploring further laugh and scoff at the 'foolish' idea of hell.

 

[Saint Steven]

It was a compassionate act to leave the bubble.

This an interesting observation. How so?

Fortunately, it was just a change of mind. I still attend church and love those in my fellowship, even though we disagree on a few points. But I am used to that.

Since I became mature enough spiritually and doctrinally, I have reserved the right to decide for myself what I believe. Since that time, I have never had a Pastor with whom I was in complete 100% agreement. But I see that as a healthy thing. Eat the meat and spit out the bones. - LOL

 

[Scott Lary]

Everything in red is patently false. I have conclusively demonstrated this more than once by quotes from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Jewish Talmud. Foot stomping, hand wringing and adamant denials do NOT disprove anything.

With all due respect, I'm quite sure you have conclusively demonstrated nothing, since much greater scholars and experts than ourselves still debate the topic. I do appreciate the effort and references though.

 

[Saint Steven]

And human nature is hard to change I guess. Two thousand years after Jesus and we're still failing spectacularly with his most basic teachings. But maybe we've made some progress. We don't believe in slavery anymore and perhaps in another two thousand years we'll stop believing in eternal torture by a partialist God who happens to hate everyone we do.

Even the slavery thing, from a biblical perspective, is completely misunderstood by us. IMHO

Just to be clear, I'm not promoting slavery. But...

I think if we project our modern political views based on the slave trade in America on the Bible times we completely miss the point. Did the Apostles condemn slavery? (nope)

Ironically, much of this can be applied to employer/employee relationships.

1. Ephesians 6:5
   Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
   
   
2. Ephesians 6:9
   And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
   
   
3. Colossians 3:22
   Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
   
   
4. Colossians 4:1
   Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
   
   
5. 1 Timothy 6:2
   Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves.
   False Teachers and the Love of Money
   These are the things you are to teach and insist on.
   
   
6. Titus 2:9
   Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,
   
   
7. 1 Peter 2:18
   Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

 

[Der Alte]

Here's another translation from Hart:
41Then he will say to those to the left, ‘Go from me, you execrable ones, into the fire of the Age prepared for the Slanderer and his angels.
45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Amen, I tell you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these my brothers, neither did you do it to me.’ 46And these will go to the chastening* of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age.”
The explanation is here:
The New Testament: A Translation by David Bentley Hart/Matthew 25:31-46

Why is this so blatantly false? This so called "translation" translates the Greek adjective "aionios" as the noun age. Not once but twice.
I can conclusively prove that the Greek word "aionios" means "eternal" using only two verses spoken by Jesus. Although I have a list of 26 vss. which prove that "aionios" means "eternal."

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

Here Jesus, perhaps unintentionally, defines/describes "aionios life" as "shall not perish" twice.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes sir, joyful. I was thinking, finally, I can release that word. Maybe another can receive that in their heart. Salvation?

Salvation is a very low bar for entry, I don't think Jesus can set it any lower, he made himself a slave to all and is exalted above all, I believe (Mark 10:43-45) points to both the disciples and Him. See how He points to being first? Its an upside down kingdom, we should seek first the servant's heart and then as imitators, a slave's heart because a servant does things for pay, but a slave is compelled to do a service, freely. This comes from a love that surpasses all knowledge and fills you with the fullness of God. (The website points to an interpretation where slave is replaced with servant, slave is the correct interpretation).

We should work out our salvation with fear and trembling as Paul writes in (Philippians 2:12) at first but it becomes an intimate relationship and a reliance on Him for strength. I worry for people that do not have this progression. One might say, "Well, I'm saved, so lets go back into the world doing what I did before." Did you really repent and change your mind? Salvation is met with a call to come out of the world, not join back in. There should be evidence of him building you and separation occurring, an increase. That's what I love about the fear of the Lord, at first its fear of condemnation (as we share in the world's judgement) but then it shifts to fear of ever leaving His house. The prodigal son, returned to his Father's house and was a bestowed a new robe (Isaiah 61:10), a ring (which is to be a son) and sandals (of peace and to walk the path for He is a light to our feet) because the prodigal son saw the world held nothing for him.

The views I expressed are more of a higher calling and for reward. I would not categorize it as a prerequisite for salvation, more of a maturing aspect. That and a push to seek in one's heart not how man perceives a thing but to receive a sight that is higher than our own. I don't like all this division that I see, the separation of groups from the body and in truth, this is men looking at men and not their God. Like in the book of Job, Job's friends were wise in their own eyes but it took a young man to get them to look at God.

It's also more of a question of living in victory in this life, 'overcoming the world' as Jesus would say (Revelation 3:21). How does one over come the world? To be born of God and belief in the son. (1 John 5:4-5)

Thanks.

Please clarify for me, are you promoting a works-based salvation with no eternal security? Are you against OSAS? Can salvation be "lost", or forfeited? Does the fear of hell play into this?

 

[Der Alte]

With all due respect, I'm quite sure you have conclusively demonstrated nothing, since much greater scholars and experts than ourselves still debate the topic. I do appreciate the effort and references though.

Meaningless verbiage! If you think I am wrong hop over to the post I linked to and prove me wrong. You will be the first one.
My linked post shows that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment and they called it both Sheol and Gehinnom, which are written as Hades and Gehenna in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. And identify Gehenna and hades as "hell." Otherwise, the answer my friend is blowing in the wind.

 

[Hmm]

He does indeed. But "Hell" with the capital "H" is not a biblical word. It's a Norse word that's reminiscent of Dante or a smiling plumber when he presents you with his bill.
Jesus said "aionios kolais" which means "correction or pruning lasting for an age". Our word eon comes from aionios and it indicates a long time but not an eternity. The phrase has is translated as "eternal punishment" in most, but by no means all, English Bible translations and ECT is based on nothing more than that, a crass mistranslation.
The Bible doesn't talk about Hell at all. It talks about Gehenna, Hades, Sheol and Tartarus instead, all of which have different meanings but none of which mean "eternal hell". But none of them are the sort of place you want to go to, even if it is for a time-limited duration, which is why God warns us of them. Correction is never an easy thing.
But tainting God with the ECT brush is not the sort of place we want to go to either. It means saying goodbye to a God of love.\
Everything in red is patently false. I have conclusively demonstrated this more than once by quotes from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Jewish Talmud. Foot stomping, hand wringing and adamant denials do NOT disprove anything.
Here is a link to my most recent post citing these 3 sources. These historical Jewish sources have never been refuted and I am convinced never will be.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

So you agree with me about plumbers? Whew.

 

[Saint Steven]

As to death metal, or indeed any current forms of media that are referencing hell, do these not (mostly) come under the guise of entertainment?
As such, I would see this as more of a parody, or even a mocking, of what would be the reality.

In some cases, yes.

But many were raised in the church, or understand the concept of hell as a fearful and mysterious thing. It's the threat of the unknown. The fear of death and what may be found beyond in the afterlife.

Probably the major factor in the fear of death. What awaits those whose conscience tells them they are not okay. Will they get what they think they deserve? A terrifying thought for some.

 

[Saint Steven]

So you agree with me about plumbers? Whew.

I hope that wasn't a wise crack on your part.

 

[BeingThere]

He does indeed. But "Hell" with the capital "H" is not a biblical word. It's a Norse word that's reminiscent of Dante or a smiling plumber when he presents you with his bill.

Jesus said "aionios kolais" which means "correction or pruning lasting for an age". Our word eon comes from aionios and it indicates a long time but not an eternity. The phrase has is translated as "eternal punishment" in most, but by no means all, English Bible translations and ECT is based on nothing more than that, a crass mistranslation.

The Bible doesn't talk about Hell at all. It talks about Gehenna, Hades, Sheol and Tartarus instead, all of which have different meanings but none of which mean "eternal hell". But none of them are the sort of place you want to go to, even if it is for a time-limited duration, which is why God warns us of them. Correction is never an easy thing.

But tainting God with the ECT brush is not the sort of place we want to go to either. It means saying goodbye to a God of love.

When Jesus speaks of God refusing those out in the cold, as He never knew them, to what is Jesus referring to? How does it fit in with the concept of a hell that you just described? And, of the "gnashing of teeth," how does that square--what is He trying to teach us?

 

[Der Alte]

When Jesus speaks of God refusing those out in the cold, as He never knew them, to what is Jesus referring to? How does it fit in with the concept of a hell that you just described? And, of the "gnashing of teeth," how does that square--what is He trying to teach us?

Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [αδη/hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:26
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-24​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I had a visual image of a herd of zebra when I read your sentence. - LOL

The lions attack and pull down a few outsiders, but the zebras in the center of the herd are in that aforementioned safety bubble. And as far as I know, the zebras never do anything about the lions. Just a grizzly fact of life. The lions pulling apart your braying relatives. What to do, what to do... ???

The church seems to treat the hell doctrine like that. Just a grizzly fact of life. (created by our loving God) Gee, thanks.

I'm so glad I've can 'do' Christianity without a safety bubble ... it's keeps me more honest.