Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Der Alte]

...

Are you familiar with the Apostle Paul?
The Scripture declares the heavens, earth, and underworld.
The all!

You asked someone if they are familiar with the Apostle Paul? Are you familiar with the Apostle Paul? Evidently not. You seem to be able to quote a few out-of-context proof texts which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions but not these verses.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, [no wrongdoer] hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
Vss cited: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[FineLinen]

This is a lie from the pit of hell and SHOULD be treated as the heretical threat it is.

Dear Apostle Paul: please be advised of Shep's view.

"He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ."

 

[Saint Steven]

Unlike you, I've never believed in ECT so I'm not speaking from personal experience, so no doubt I shouldn't say anything, as advised above, but... If I imagine believing in ECT, or thinking I believe in it, I think there will also be a part of me that doesn't believe it, because of the glaring contradiction between Jesus and a torturer, which couldn't be more clear. If I had been told from a young age that I had to believe in it or I wouldn't be a true Christian, as often seems to be the case and was your own experience, I imagine I'd try to suppress my natural doubts and try hard to believe in it. The problem then is that if I come across arguments against ECT or encounter people who are at ease with their doubts or outright dismissal of the idea, I'm going to feel threatened. The psychological mechanism at work (INHO) is that because I'm trying to suppress the doubts in myself, when I hear them expressed by others I feel compelled to suppress that too, usually by shouting it down.

Thanks for bringing this up. There seems to be a range of positions on this. See if I can formulate something here. ECT under the microscope. - LOL

Two main components, belief and fear.

1) Believe in hell AND fearful of it
2) Believe in hell but NOT fearful of it
3) Don't believe in hell AND fearful of it (irrational fear)
4) Don't believe in hell and NOT fearful of it

I was in group two. Believed in hell but was NOT fearful of it. I felt isolated from the "danger". I believed in it, but it was a distant thing. Yes, it was as if I was at a safe distance. Nothing to worry about or be afraid of. Me? In hell? No way! I lived in a heaven bubble. My good Christian family and church would protect me. Although, I don't remember ever even rationalizing about why I shouldn't be afraid. It was like was a problem for the world at large, but nothing to do with my world.

At this point, the Psychiatrist should say, "How did that make you feel?" - LOL

Perhaps we should be asking these two questions of forum discussion participants.
Do you believe in hell? Are you afraid of hell?

 

[Der Alte]

...

Dear Apostle Paul: please be advised of Shep's view.
"He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ."

Dear Apostle Paul: please be advised of FineLinen's flowery words devoid of scripture, written on the wind which vanish into nothingness the moment they are penned

 

[shepherdsword]

Dear Apostle Paul: please be advised of Shep's view.

"He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ."

Hmmmm, who were those passages, that you cherry picked and misapplied, written to?
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

They weren't written to those who rejected Christ and died in their sins. Stop wresting and twisting them to conform to your delusion.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said: ↑
I am under no compulsion to convert anyone, as I said, I don't view it is a salvation issue.

Me too. I think one of the joys of UR is that it takes this pressure away. I genuinely think that if I believed the vast majority of the word - or even one person come to that - is going to an eternal hell, I would have some kind of breakdown. And this has happened to people so I make no apology for my views.

I remember that when I first heard about UR, I wished it was true, but I definitely didn't believe in it. I fought it hard at first. And as we know, there is plenty of ammo available to attempt to shoot it down.

I remember hell as being a blemish on an otherwise perfect faith. It sure put a crimp in evangelism efforts. Telling this seemingly nice person that they would spend eternity... met by a look of... well it varied.

But truly, life without hell is much better. Not looking at the person in the petrol pump next to mine as a "God-hating, hell-deserving scumbag" is quite freeing. A world full of humans, all created in God's image and heading toward an afterlife where everything will be restored.

I can assume that most already have a relationship with God on some level. And there's always room for improvement. When I start from that point, I am rarely disappointed in what I find.

Previously as a card carrying evangelical, I assumed everyone I met in public was lost and heading for hell. (the aforementioned scumbags)

 

[Saint Steven]

My point is to look at a specific passage that deals with false disciples. We could look at other passages that deal with different kinds of false converts, but I thought about this passage first.

I can't think of any. Could you point out a couple more? Thanks.

Still can't wrap my head around the idea of a false convert.

A conversion seems like evidence to me that something real has happened. I worry more about those who claim to have come to Christ but aren't converted.

Perhaps our disagreement is over the definition of the word "convert". How do you define it?

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said: ↑
Very good.
In your perspective, what qualifies as wood, hay and stubble?

Perhaps that passage speaks to motivation- selfless or selfish service. God Bless

I certainly think that is part of it. When I read that scripture I think of what Christ said. (see below)
Sort of funny, but I think the rewards are for do-nothing believers. - LOL
The things God does THROUGH us are deserving of reward. Everything else is done of the flesh.
Fleshly efforts burn up in the test of our faith. Only what God has done remains. IMHO

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've been waiting a very long time for someone to ask.

Thanks for your complete and joyful (I suppose) reply.
Been a long time coming. - LOL

I mostly agree with your position. Especially this statement.

The wood, hay and stubble is what man himself has built.

How does this apply to salvation in your view?

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not that UR is of any threat to those of us who don't subscribe to it on the contrary. It's a threat to some of those who DO subscribe to it. For example, if an unbeliever was on the verge of coming to Christ and he heard the error pronounced he might reconsider, thinking he would receive another chance after he died. We understand that UR turns the grace of God into lasciviousness by teaching that it doesn't matter what we do...we will still be saved at some point. This is a lie from the pit of hell and SHOULD be treated as the heretical threat it is.

Oh boy... - LOL
We seem to be at an impasse.

What do you like best about hell, since you are willing to fight tooth and claw to preserve it? There must some value in it to you, but what?

 

[David's Harp]

The thread title is losing the fear of an eternal hell. Should we lose the fear of a non-eternal hell also?

 

[Saint Steven]

This is a lie from the pit of hell and SHOULD be treated as the heretical threat it is.

I find it interesting that both the church and the occult believe in hell. Why?

If hell was true, you would think the occult would use it as a tool to discredit Christianity. But, they seem to cherish the fear factor as well. Why?

 

[Saint Steven]

Hmmmm, who were those passages, that you cherry picked and misapplied, written to?
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

They weren't written to those who rejected Christ and died in their sins. Stop wresting and twisting them to conform to your delusion.

Are you free to break the Ten Commandments?
Who were they written to? (Deuteronomy 5:1-3)

 

[David's Harp]

I find it interesting that both the church and the occult believe in hell. Why?

If hell was true, you would think the occult would use it as a tool to discredit Christianity. But, they seem to cherish the fear factor as well. Why?

Hi Steven, I think you referenced this earlier, but I don't understand what part of the occult you think believes in hell. Do you have experience of the occult?

 

[Der Alte]

...

Oh boy... - LOL
We seem to be at an impasse.
What do you like best about hell, since you are willing to fight tooth and claw to preserve it? There must some value in it to you, but what?

Simple! Jesus said it. I believe it. That settles it!
Jesus referred to Gehenna fire 11 eleven times. Jesus referred to Hades 4 times.

...

I find it interesting that both the church and the occult believe in hell. Why?
If hell was true, you would think the occult would use it as a tool to discredit Christianity. But, they seem to cherish the fear factor as well. Why?

You don't know? The occult is using hell! Here is what they are saying. There is no hell! Don't be afraid of hell! Live like the devil, there is no hell!

 

[Saint Steven]

The thread title is losing the fear of an eternal hell. Should we lose the fear of a non-eternal hell also?

Wow. I think that's a great question. Thanks.

The topic question is addressing the mortifying fear of an eternal hell (with no hope of escape) and the abuse of the idea used by the church to control the church. (human institution) Excommunication equals eternal torment, so best do as we say, or else.

HOWEVER... there will be a judgment (evaluation) for correction and restoration in the afterlife, so should we be fearful of that unavoidable event? There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (like when you got saved - LOL) And Jesus said it would better to go there without that lustful eye or sinful hand. (figuratively, I hope)

So, fearful of a non-eternal hell ? Good question.

From my view, secret sin will be revealed to everyone. Any unconfessed sin will be out in the open, as will every idle word and thought. We will be required to answer for all this. Depending on the individual, this may be a terrifying prospect. Some will be reduced to a puddle in their absolute shame, confronted with what they have done with their lives and to others.

But... the good news is that our heavenly Father will be there to restore us and receive us back into full fellowship.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said: ↑
I find it interesting that both the church and the occult believe in hell. Why?

If hell was true, you would think the occult would use it as a tool to discredit Christianity. But, they seem to cherish the fear factor as well. Why?

Hi Steven, I think you referenced this earlier, but I don't understand what part of the occult you think believes in hell. Do you have experience of the occult?

Good question.
I'm not even sure "occult" is the right word to express what I am trying to say here.

Originally I wanted to say "Satanism", but that's too narrow and specific. I notice that a lot of the death metal musical groups play on hellish themes. Why would they align themselves this way and still be anti-God and anti-Christian? A curious thing.

You would think that a better strategy for those who are anti-God and anti-Christian would be to take a position against the hell that the church holds.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Wow. I think that's a great question. Thanks.
The topic question is addressing the mortifying fear of an eternal hell (with no hope of escape) and the abuse of the idea used by the church to control the church. (human institution) Excommunication equals eternal torment, so best do as we say, or else.
HOWEVER... there will be a judgment (evaluation) for correction and restoration in the afterlife, so should we be fearful of that unavoidable event? There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (like when you got saved - LOL) And Jesus said it would better to go there without that lustful eye or sinful hand. (figuratively, I hope)
So, fearful of a non-eternal hell ? Good question.
From my view, secret sin will be revealed to everyone. Any unconfessed sin will be out in the open, as will every idle word and thought. We will be required to answer for all this. Depending on the individual, this may be a terrifying prospect. Some will be reduced to a puddle in their absolute shame, confronted with what they have done with their lives and to others.
But... the good news is that our heavenly Father will be there to restore us and receive us back into full fellowship.

It seems you have taken some musty pages from the dusty linen closet.
Flowery words void of scripture written on the wind which vanish away the moment they are penned.

 

[shepherdsword]

Are you free to break the Ten Commandments?
Who were they written to? (Deuteronomy 5:1-3)

if you want to engage in debate it would be helpful for you if you studied logic.(and the scriptures as well) While no one is free to break the commandments, the curse of the law is on all of those who do.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

As for faith?

2 Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

 

[Scott Lary]

"Whoever hears my Word..will cross into eternal life" What about those who do NOT hear and obey Jesus' Word? They cross into eternal death..Hell. "Depart from Me you accursed. into the Eternal Fire.." (Matt.25:41)

Here's another translation from Hart:

41Then he will say to those to the left, ‘Go from me, you execrable ones, into the fire of the Age prepared for the Slanderer and his angels.

45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Amen, I tell you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these my brothers, neither did you do it to me.’ 46And these will go to the chastening* of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age.”

The explanation is here:
The New Testament: A Translation by David Bentley Hart/Matthew 25:31-46