Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[didactics]

Are you familiar with the Apostle Paul?

The Scripture declares the heavens, earth, and underworld.

The all!

Tell you what, I will give you that, those under the earth will bow "at the name of Jesus". That's what the text says after all. It only threw me off guard to see the words "in worship" but I suppose that's what the text means after all. However, this is not explicitly saying that God will release those under the earth after a time of punishment and then restore them to right standing with himself. All will bow the knee at the name of Jesus; some do that willingly, others unwillingly.

 

[Der Alte]

Tell you what, I will give you that, those under the earth will bow "at the name of Jesus". That's what the text says after all. It only threw me off guard to see the words "in worship" but I suppose that's what the text means after all. However, this is not explicitly saying that God will release those under the earth after a time of punishment and then restore them to right standing with himself. All will bow the knee at the name of Jesus; some do that willingly, others unwillingly.

Contrary to what UR-ites erroneously proclaim, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT. in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”​

…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity …..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]​

After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
…
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool, vs. 24, then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies specifically will be reconciled.

 

[David's Harp]

In some cases, yes.

But many were raised in the church, or understand the concept of hell as a fearful and mysterious thing. It's the threat of the unknown. The fear of death and what may be found beyond in the afterlife.

Probably the major factor in the fear of death. What awaits those whose conscience tells them they are not okay. Will they get what they think they deserve? A terrifying thought for some.

So what about those not raised in church. What about the common man. What does he think when he listens to or views the 'current' portrayals of hell?

What I'm trying to say is that modern portrayals of hell are becoming maligned through media and new found doctrine. After all, you would agree that UR doctrine is only recently re-discovered, yes? What does this say about the last thousand plus years, has the Holy Spirit not been with the Body of Christ during this time, or have we all been deluded?

 

[BeingThere]

Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [αδη/hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:26
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-24​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.

Because you so thoroughly outlined what the Bible says about this topic, may you be so kind as to investigate the path to avoid such a fate?

Also, referring to page one of this forum thread, I am under the supposition that hell is a long time rather than forever. Well, that's the only thing I can believe in that regard, obviously. That sort of thinking (putting repentance off) used to assuage me in my ignorance and blindness-no longer. I know I do not have forever, which is why I am here now. Please help me and I will take it under serious consideration, and know that you will be doing good and not wasting your time.

 

[Der Alte]

Because you so thoroughly outlined what the Bible says about this topic, may you be so kind as to investigate the path to avoid such a fate?
Also, referring to page one of this forum thread, I am under the supposition that hell is a long time rather than forever. Well, that's the only thing I can believe in that regard, obviously. That sort of thinking (putting repentance off) used to assuage me in my ignorance and blindness-no longer. I know I do not have forever, which is why I am here now. Please help me and I will take it under serious consideration, and know that you will be doing good and not wasting your time.

That would be off topic for this forum and this thread. Go to the forum at this link and start a conversation with me at the "Inbox" upper right and I will join you there.
Link: Spiritual Growth (Christians only) | Christian Forums

 

[David Lowery]

Thanks.

Please clarify for me, are you promoting a works-based salvation with no eternal security? Are you against OSAS? Can salvation be "lost", or forfeited? Does the fear of hell play into this?

Wow, nice! How exciting a question. I had to answer non-denominational for this site but I'm more inter-denominational, meaning i do not have an absence but a mergence of faith. I once was Baptist, then more Pentecostal after receiving the Spirit. Baptecostal? Now, all I see is the Body. There is no denomination in heaven. No one is going to say, I was baptized by this person or this person but all will be in Christ, this reminds me of a situation like in (1 Corinthians 1:12-15)

Works? No, we are justified by nothing but faith alone in Christ. It is a free gift that cannot be earned. His righteousness is imputed to us. If we have faith, then works comes naturally as a manifestation of that faith.

Once saved always saved? I can only speak to myself, and I know no one can take me from His hand. I know I'm saved, I don't know about you. I would point to them not really being saved because if they don't know, or think they were saved and now live a life in sin, odds are they were not. This is not from ignorance of scripture, I see verses such as (Matthew 7:22-23). The question is, do you receive that scripture in faith? Why do you receive that scripture in faith? The word of God is living and active...judging the thoughts and intentions of the heart, why is the word active in you from this scripture? Are you identifying with the lawlessness? Depart now and be clean in His sight, though you sin is like scarlet, he will make you white as snow. This scripture goes also into the works category as well as no man was justified by those works. Everything is yes and amen in Christ, Christ allowed that to happen because he looks upon the world to perform his word.

Salvation being lost or forfeited. I don't know how that is possible, for someone to receive the Holy Spirit, who has shared in the goodness of His house and felt His overwhelming love flow thru their heart and then go back into the ways of the world. I am forever changed. I see the same verse as those do in Hebrews 6:6-9. I just don't know how that is possible. It's not possible with me, therefore I don't have sight where it is possible. All things are possible in Christ who strengthens me, this is a faith I take up, not put down. I don't have faith to tear someone down, I only have faith to build them up. My faith only goes in one direction and that is upwards. Paul must have had an experience there, that I do not understand but I have never personally encountered someone who had genuinely received the Holy Spirit, having Him deposited in them as a guarantee for what is to come and then forsook the faith. Most people don't know or have never heard of the Holy Spirit like in (Acts 19:1-8).

Does the fear of Hell play into this. Yes, initially for some. Keep in mind there is a cloud of witnesses and that means there is a range of testimony. Not a single one of them is giving the exact testimony because all of us are living different lives. Some are brought into agreement with the Spirit by the fear of the Lord, certainly a fear of going to Hell. I'm like you, I didn't have that fear of Hell in me. You couldn't get me in agreement with hell. I've heard plenty of lectures but was like nope, that's not for me. I was led into agreement by the Spirit of Understanding. I was desperate for Him one night. I kept reading the Bible but I wasn't understanding any of it and I found that I had a disagreement, where I judged God as evil because I couldn't get over why every women, child and animal had to be killed in Jericho. I was desperate to understand and I gave this up one night and said in my heart, I give up my understanding to you, all I have to accept is that you are good. And it was that simple, right after, I started understanding His word because I was in agreement with the word.

Should Hell be preached? Certainly, all doctrine is profitable and Jesus himself taught on it several times. There is also a season to pick up and a season to put down. Ecclesiastes 3:6

 

[Der Alte]

So what about those not raised in church. What about the common man. What does he think when he listens to or views the 'current' portrayals of hell?
What I'm trying to say is that modern portrayals of hell are becoming maligned through media and new found doctrine. After all, you would agree that UR doctrine is only recently re-discovered, yes? What does this say about the last thousand plus years, has the Holy Spirit not been with the Body of Christ during this time, or have we all been deluded?

I first attended Sunday School when FDR was president. The only thing I remember is the red koolaid was really good. I attended church mostly Sunday school sporadically and became a Christian in my mid '20s while in flight school next stop Viet Nam. I had heard about hell. The only sermon I heard about hell I preached it in the mid '90s. The title was "Lessons from Hell University." I didn't have a lot to unlearn. Most of what I know I learned doing research right here.

 

[didactics]

I can't think of any. Could you point out a couple more? Thanks.

Still can't wrap my head around the idea of a false convert.

A conversion seems like evidence to me that something real has happened. I worry more about those who claim to have come to Christ but aren't converted.

Perhaps our disagreement is over the definition of the word "convert". How do you define it?

In all honesty, you have given me something to think about. In looking this up, I learned something. The two following paragraphs are quotes from an article. Steven Lawson, July 29, 2022. Ligonier [What Is True Conversion?]


Theologically speaking, regeneration and conversion are two sides of the same coin. Regeneration is God’s sovereign activity by the Holy Spirit in the soul of one who is spiritually dead in sin. Regeneration is the implantation of new life in the soul. Regeneration gives the gifts of repentance and faith. On the other side of the coin, conversion is the response of the one who is regenerated. Esteemed British pastor D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones said: “Conversion is the first exercise of the new nature in ceasing from old forms of life and starting a new life. It is the first action of the regenerate soul in moving from something to something.” Regeneration precedes and produces conversion. There is a cause-and-effect relationship between these two. Regeneration is the cause, and conversion is the effect. Put another way, regeneration is the root and conversion is the fruit.


To affirm true conversion implies that there is also false conversion. Put simply, there is such a thing as non-saving faith. Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord” has entered the narrow gate (Matt. 7:21). People may know the truth and may have felt grief regarding their sin, but it is a selfish sorrow over what their sin has caused them to suffer, not how it has offended a holy God. The most stark example of a false conversion we have in Scripture is that of Judas Iscariot. In a counterfeit conversion, there is no death to self, no submission to the lordship of Christ, no taking up a cross, no obedience in following Christ, no fruit of repentance–only empty words, shallow feelings, and barren religious activities. On the contrary, with a true conversion sin is abhorred, the world renounced, pride crushed, self surrendered, faith exercised, Christ seen as precious, and the cross embraced as one’s only saving hope.

 

[David Lowery]

To affirm true conversion implies that there is also false conversion. Put simply, there is such a thing as non-saving faith. Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord” has entered the narrow gate (Matt. 7:21). People may know the truth and may have felt grief regarding their sin, but it is a selfish sorrow over what their sin has caused them to suffer, not how it has offended a holy God. The most stark example of a false conversion we have in Scripture is that of Judas Iscariot. In a counterfeit conversion, there is no death to self, no submission to the lordship of Christ, no taking up a cross, no obedience in following Christ, no fruit of repentance–only empty words, shallow feelings, and barren religious activities. On the contrary, with a true conversion sin is abhorred, the world renounced, pride crushed, self surrendered, faith exercised, Christ seen as precious, and the cross embraced as one’s only saving hope.

Judas is a good example for a lot of reasons. To betray Christ with a kiss, what a thing that is.

What a lot of people don't understand was that Peter was separated as well for a time. As Jesus said, Satan was going to sift Peter and, to me, that means he was going to take the seed planted in him (Matthew 13:19). In short, Jesus said that those that say that they do not know Him publicly before men, He will say to the Father that He does not know them (Matthew 10:33). Peter rejected Christ three times. Jesus is the word and the word is absolute. That is why the angel asked to go get the disciples and Peter in Mark 16:7, he was separate. It took Jesus redeeming Him three times by asking Peter three times, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Those that love Him, does what He says, (John 14:23) thus, he was redeemed. Personally, I believe the vision of the sheet lowering from heaven three times was a reminder to Peter that he was redeemed three times. It was remarkable, the Holy Spirit never fell on Gentiles until Peter was sent with that vision leading him.

Were they really converted though until they received the Holy Spirit? Satan entered Peter, when Peter said, not you lord in Matthew 16:23. Two disciples didn't know what spirit they were of in Luke 9:55. Please understand, they walked with Him daily during this timeframe. Jesus was in their presence when these things happened.

 

[Hmm]

This an interesting observation. How so?

I mean it shows empathy for the people outside the heaven bubble that you'd leave the bubble to join them.

I can't see how anyone can fully accept the idea of other people, and it's always other people!, being tortured forever, without shutting down our empathy and feelings. Arguments such as Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure" may be used to justify this it's really just another example of ignoring our emotions.

Another example of this is the argument we see over and over again that if there was no eternal hell, they'd be no reason to be a Christian. That the love of God or for others or even oneself doesn't seem a sufficient reason also suggests a turning away from empathy and compassion.

 

[Saint Steven]

Great questions, as usual. Thanks.

So what about those not raised in church. What about the common man. What does he think when he listens to or views the 'current' portrayals of hell?

The concepts of heaven and hell have saturated the culture. You don't need to be raised in the church to understand what the terms mean.

What I'm trying to say is that modern portrayals of hell are becoming maligned through media and new found doctrine.

Yes, there is quite a spectrum of thought on the subject. The question of life after death has always been with us. A loved one departs. Where did they go? Where will I go?

After all, you would agree that UR doctrine is only recently re-discovered, yes?

Not sure of the history. A good source would be Brad Jersak, if you aren't familiar. (see video below) I've watched everything I could find by him. Prolific author as well. Currently an Orthodox Priest. And a really great guy. @MMXX has been in touch with him via email and probably introduced me to Brad.

What does this say about the last thousand plus years, has the Holy Spirit not been with the Body of Christ during this time, or have we all been deluded?

I wouldn't say that the Holy Spirit hasn't been with the church. And as you probably know, one of the jobs of the HS is to guide us into all truth. (John 16:13) So, truth can't be assumed as a given.

One of the biggest problems for UR is that the western/Latin church gave us our Bible. So, their bias is all over it. We are fortunate to have the little we do have, which seems to have fallen through the cracks. When opponents of UR demand Bible proof, we have a real task to defend it biblically. And frankly, THIS is where the HS comes to the rescue. I still remember the moment I read (1 John 2:2) and realized something was up. Something I had never noticed before, even though I was raised in the church and had read and studied the Bible cover to cover.

51,222 views Jun 29, 2017

 

[Saint Steven]

Should Hell be preached? Certainly, all doctrine is profitable and Jesus himself taught on it several times.

Thanks again for your thoughtful and respectful response. I want to focus on this sentence from late in your post.

Part of the apologetic for UR is the problems we see with Bible translation bias. Here's an example, which you may or may not be familiar with. Let me know what you think about this. Thanks.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kfKQJfT0C8&t=770s

 

[Saint Steven]

To affirm true conversion implies that there is also false conversion.

Thanks for the article.
I had never considered regeneration and conversion as two separate, but related, things, but they are. Two sides of the same coin, as the author put it.

Regeneration is the inward spiritual transformation and conversion is the external effect of that internal regeneration. Good stuff, thanks.

That being said, I'm still not convinced there is such a thing as "false" conversion. I think I know what you are trying to say, but am wincing at the terminology.

Sorry to be splitting hairs on this, but I think there is an important distinction to be made here. The article you provided made me even more sure of this. Because conversion is a result of regeneration.

In that regard, how can conversion ever be false? Please help me to understand, if I am being thick-headed here. Thanks.

Perhaps what you are referring to is a wheat and tares thing? (Matthew 13:37-39) So, "false" disciple is probably a good term for that. People in the church for the wrong reasons. Some of them wolves in sheep's clothing, as the saying goes.

 

[Saint Steven]

I can't see how anyone can fully accept the idea of other people, and it's always other people!, being tortured forever, without shutting down our empathy and feelings.

That's a great observation. And this has come up before. Worth more discussion. I think I gain more clarity on this issue the more we do.

This shutting down of the emotions aspect is so obvious to those of us with some distance from it. Like seeing storm clouds rolling in that those before us can't see.

There is even a whole system of apologetics wrapped around this festering wound to prevent healing. Like a limb with gangrene that needs to be removed before it kills the host, as it were.

The "us versus them" dynamic. Everyone outside the tribe is an enemy. Why should we love our enemies? (probably because Jesus taught us to - see Matthew 5:43-48)

Hell is justified with the "blame the victim" mentality. As if anyone would choose such a thing. And then God would stand back in a "hands off" posture and let the children run out into freeway traffic. An act they call being a gentleman. Say what?

 

[Hmm]

Like seeing storm clouds rolling in that those before us can't see.

Well expressed.

Hell is justified with the "blame the victim" mentality. As if anyone would choose such a thing.

Indeed. Team Hell describe hell as an eternity of wailing of teeth and gnashing, or rather the other way around, and yet at the same time they tell us that we only go there by our free choice. They can't have it both ways! This is an example of the cognitive dissonance we've mentioned: trying to hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time.

 

[Saint Steven]

Team Hell describe hell as an eternity of wailing of teeth and gnashing, or rather the other way around, and yet at the same time they tell us that we only go there by our free choice. They can't have it both ways! This is an example of the cognitive dissonance we've mentioned: trying to hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time.

Right.
As if anyone would willingly hurl themselves into an active volcano. Especially knowing that the volcano god will not be appeased.

There's a scary thought. They believe in a God who is less forgiving than an angry volcano god. What's wrong with this picture?

 

[Saint Steven]

@David's Harp -- Here's a great Brad Jersak interview where he answers some really tough questions. Very insightful.

15,080 views Jan 16, 2019
Enjoy this interview with Brad Jersak where he discusses many questions like when salvation occurs, why did Jesus have to die, where did death come from, what did the early church believe about the after-life, etc.

 

[didactics]

Judas is a good example for a lot of reasons. To betray Christ with a kiss, what a thing that is.

What a lot of people don't understand was that Peter was separated as well for a time. As Jesus said, Satan was going to sift Peter and, to me, that means he was going to take the seed planted in him (Matthew 13:19). In short, Jesus said that those that say that they do not know Him publicly before men, He will say to the Father that He does not know them (Matthew 10:33). Peter rejected Christ three times. Jesus is the word and the word is absolute. That is why the angel asked to go get the disciples and Peter in Mark 16:7, he was separate. It took Jesus redeeming Him three times by asking Peter three times, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Those that love Him, does what He says, (John 14:23) thus, he was redeemed. Personally, I believe the vision of the sheet lowering from heaven three times was a reminder to Peter that he was redeemed three times. It was remarkable, the Holy Spirit never fell on Gentiles until Peter was sent with that vision leading him.

Were they really converted though until they received the Holy Spirit? Satan entered Peter, when Peter said, not you lord in Matthew 16:23. Two disciples didn't know what spirit they were of in Luke 9:55. Please understand, they walked with Him daily during this timeframe. Jesus was in their presence when these things happened.

That’s an interesting question. You might find this little article helpful. I don’t know if you will agree with its explanation but it helped me understand a little better. It’s from Got Questions: How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins? | GotQuestions.org

In regards to Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33 I don’t think Satan entered Peter, but unwittingly he was speaking for Satan. It’s interesting that you bring up Peter denying his Lord three times because it’s a good compare and contrast to how Judas Iscariot acted. Peter’s grief was perhaps just as profound as Judas when he considered his wrong, their motives were very different.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don’t think Satan entered Peter, but unwittingly he was speaking for Satan.

Does this come from the idea that a Christian can't be demonized? (have a demon)

How does one speak for Satan? Where do the words come from? (Genesis 3:11)

 

[Saint Steven]

Because you so thoroughly outlined what the Bible says about this topic, may you be so kind as to investigate the path to avoid such a fate?

Here's an alternative biblical view. Please note two things. The phrase "under the earth" in Phil. 2;10 and the definition of "acknowledge", thanks.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)