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Just think of the English letters as Greek with an accent. LOL
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It is not a Sabbath. I don't understand the rest. What verse are you referring to?
The first day of unleavened bread is the 15th, but because Passover is just the day before, they combine them, making the Passover the "first" day.
Good night, my friend.
Just think of the English letters as Greek with an accent. LOL
If you would like to continue this discussion, I would be game. However, it should be continue in another thread, not this one about the wine and the Lord' supper.The temple gates were normally closed at night. Gates at the outer temple walls like these were usually guarded. So the idea of trading at the gate is silly and so a phone would have been the only way to talk with a merchant outside the gates late at night outside of the outer temple wall. But seeing phones did not exist back then, there would have been no way for Mary to try and talk to enough merchants who would be willing to sneak in some hidden way into the temple.
Please find me a Scripture verse in the Bible that actually says the 15th is the FIRST day of unleavened bread. You will not find it.
What you will find in the Bible is that the 15th is A or THE (generic) day of the feast of unleavened bread. The word "FIRST" is not attached to the feast of unleavened bread involving the 15th.
Scripture says the FIRST DAY of unleavened bread is the PASSOVER (Which is the 14th).
"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17).
"Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover." (Luke 22:1).
I am examining the Scriptures again on this issue. I know the night Jesus celebrated with His disciples was the REAL Passover. While I said before in my Chronology that the 14th began Tuesday at sundown, I have recently been warming up to the idea that the 14th began Monday at sundown and they celebrated the Passover at the end of the 14th (Possiblly Tuesday late afternoon shortly before sundown). In Leviticus 23:6 says that the first day is an holy convocation. So the day that Christ died for us could possibly be on the 15th (Which was a High Sabbath). However, the Jews were a day behind on their calendar. They thought the Feast of Unleavened Bread was after Christ died at sundown. In Leviticus 23:8 says that they were to make an offering unto the Lord by fire for seven days. This would start on the 15th after they had the Passover feast at the end of the 14th. 5 is the number for grace; And 8 is the number for new beginnings. So Jesus dying on the 15th and rising on the 18th fits the pattern of Biblical numerics. Also, Jesus triumphal entry would then be on a Friday (Nisan the 10th). This seems to fit better than the Saturday Sabbath because donkeys were supposed to rest according to the Sabbath. Also, the cutting of palm branches could also be regarded as work, as well. I still have to pray about it, though. But there is a pattern in Scripture. In the New Testament, the NT writers made a distinction between the REAL Passover and the Jewish passover and customs. The word "Jewish" or the word "Jew's" would be attached to the custom.
Yes, I Corinthians 11:21 makes it clear. One does not get drunk on non-fermented juice.Regardless of any such old Jewish standards, the Church has always used alcoholic wine for Communion. For over two thousand years it has been so, beginning with this Scriptural evidence (1 Corinthians 11:21) and continuing through the unchanging Tradition of the Orthodox Church throughout all of the ancient Christian sees. The Church now typically mixes water with the wine in the chalice when the gifts are prepared prior to Liturgy, and very hot water is added again immediately before the chalice is brought to the faithful for Communion. I would estimate it to be a 1:1 ratio of wine and water.
It is commanded by our Lord to eat His flesh and to drink His blood. Those who oppose the Church's doctrine of the real presence claim that we are in standing violation of all the Scriptural prohibitions against drinking blood if we indeed believe we are drinking Christ's blood. There are even some who also say that such Scriptural passages serve as prohibitions forbidding medical blood transfusions. You are stuck on the fact that I blurted out that "we could even eat meat offered to idols", and proving the incorrectness of this statement of mine, so that you don't seem to realize that I made the exaggerated statement for rhetorical emphasis, and only to illustrate how the opponents of the use of wine and the drinking of God's blood in Communion are succumbing to a Pharisaical sort of legalism that has no place in Orthodox Christian Sacramental Life. I was able to make my statement (so problematic for you) because of what the Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 8 about meat offered to idols.The teaching of the Orthodox Church is that we do not consume blood as set out in the Apostolic council of Jerusalem:
Apostolic Canon 63: If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone else on the sacerdotal list at all, eat meat in the blood of its soul, or that has been killed by a wild beast, or that has died a natural death, let him be deposed. For the Law has forbidden this. But if any layman do the same, let him be excommunicated.
Theodoret of Cyrus says: you should not eat blood, wherefore it is the soul of the animal
St Chrysostom says: you should not eat blood, because it was devoted only to God. Also because God wanted to prevent people not to spill human blood, for it commands neither to eat animal blood so as not thus litle-by-litle become accustomed to homicide.
Clement of Alexandria says: you should not eat blood, because your flesh too is developed and built by blood
It is possible that the 14th Passover meal and the 15th Day of Unleavened Bread are fused together as one event because the end of 14th runs into the 15th. But it is also possible the Passover was celebrated the remaining ending hours of the 14th before it got dark.
Why did Hannah say she drank no wine? Did Hannah say she never drank wine?3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.
I'm just going by Leviticus 23.
5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, [is] the passover to Jehovah;
6 and on the fifteenth day of this month [is] the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;
I'm not trying to prove the 14th as the first day of unleavened bread, just that they are together and considered by some that the passover meal is part of the feast of unleavened bread. The word "first" doesn't matter to me.
It is commanded by our Lord to eat His flesh and to drink His blood. Those who oppose the Church's doctrine of the real presence claim that we are in standing violation of all the Scriptural prohibitions against drinking blood if we indeed believe we are drinking Christ's blood. There are even some who also say that such Scriptural passages serve as prohibitions forbidding medical blood transfusions. You are stuck on the fact that I blurted out that "we could even eat meat offered to idols", and proving the incorrectness of this statement of mine, so that you don't seem to realize that I made the exaggerated statement for rhetorical emphasis, and only to illustrate how the opponents of the use of wine and the drinking of God's blood in Communion are succumbing to a Pharisaical sort of legalism that has no place in Orthodox Christian Sacramental Life. I was able to make my statement (so problematic for you) because of what the Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 8 about meat offered to idols.
Ask former alcoholics who are practicing Orthodox Christianity if receiving Communion is a problem for them. I seem to recall that they say it isn't. The Holy Spirit heals and illumines the brain, and the Sacrament of Communion, when properly prepared for, has both the Holy Spirit and the Word of Life in it. Such an experience does not shrink the brain. In Orthodox worship the half teaspoon of wine mixed with bread you receive as a lay person is diluted with about an equal amount of water. That's probably why Orthodox tend not to make a fuss about the alcohol.So can we hook up scientific equipment to prove that this happens?
Or does it only work when nobody is looking?
However, what if an ex alcoholic who struggled with alcohol was thrown back into alcoholism because of such a service? What should the elders of the church think, say or do in this case? Also, most wines does not have any nutritional value. Why do you think there is no nutrition label on most bottles of wine? Alcohol is a poison and it seeks to dry things out. Why else do you think people get drunk off of it? Because it is too healthy for them? Actually there is a scientific study done that says that alcohol consumption even in moderate amounts actually shrinks the brain.
If what he says was the case, unleavened bread would be allowed since the next night would be the beginning of unleavened...could not have unleavened with the seder if it were the night before.
We could say that, but it still means that the meal was not a Seder. Perhaps that was what Jesus led his Apostles to think it was going to be--because of their expectations--but if there was no literal lamb, it was something else (which, in turn, ruins all the arguments based upon "Since it was a Passover meal, the Jews would not have done X...or they surely had to have done Y")Interesting, I'll check it out. However, we DO know that the lamb on Passover was without spot, so represented Christ.
I understand your intent to correct me for what you thought I was saying. I just want to be clear that what you thought I was saying isn't actually what I was saying.That does not matter, what you said was wrong. I was just correcting you. like I said, I disagree with them also...
We could say that, but it still means that the meal was not a Seder. Perhaps that was what Jesus led his Apostles to think it was going to be--because of their expectations--but if there was no literal lamb, it was something else (which, in turn, ruins all the arguments based upon "Since it was a Passover meal, the Jews would not have done X...or they surely had to have done Y")
Deu 32:31 For not as our Rock is their rock, (And our enemies are judges!)2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).
@Jason0047 did you see my reference to you on #238! You are right, and I just proved it with scripture in the original Greek!
Exodus 12:18-20 says,
18 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread."
Leviticus 23:5-8 says,
5 "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein."
According to the above passages, there are:
#1. 7 days of eating unleavened bread (Leviticus 23:6).
#2. 1st Day is an holy convocation (High Sabbath) (Leviticus 23:7).
#3. 7th Day is an holy convocation (High Sabbath) (Leviticus 23:8).
Here is what this looks like if Jesus and His disciples celebrated the Passover on the beginning calendar day of the 14th after the sun went down on Tuesday evening (Note: Tuesday is the 13th and Tuesday sundown begins Wednesday the 14th).
Here is what it looks like if Jesus and His disciples celebrated the Passover the 14th at the end of the day (i.e. the end of the 14th) on a Tuesday evening (Note: Sundown on Tuesday then began Wednesday the 15th).
The Jews thought the 15th was a day later. It is why the Scriptures stress the following about the Jew's version of keeping the preparation day at the wrong time.
"There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand." (John 19:42).
The real day of preparation of the lambs was the night before with Jesus. It's why we read the following.
"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17).
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