Liturgical Christianity

[The Liturgist]

So when Paul was visiting the churches, he was wearing a freshly pressed church uniform ?

Paul wore a chasuble (phelonion in Greek) and requested in one of his epistles sent while imprisoned in Rome that it be sent to him. This is why Christian clergy wear chasubles. Bishops, and in some churches, presbyters, wear mitres in a continuation of the liturgy of the Second Temple (interestingly there is some evidence to suggest that at some point before Ananias and Caiaphas, John the Beloved Disciple was a high priest).

 

[ViaCrucis]

Paul wore a chasuble (phelonion in Greek) and requested in one of his epistles sent while imprisoned in Rome that it be sent to him. This is why Christian clergy wear chasubles. Bishops, and in some churches, presbyters, wear mitres in a continuation of the liturgy of the Second Temple (interestingly there is some evidence to suggest that at some point before Ananias and Caiaphas, John the Beloved Disciple was a high priest).

For those curious (as was I, and decided to do a bit of Google-sleuthing) the passage in question here is 2 Timothy 4:13.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

For those curious (as was I, and decided to do a bit of Google-sleuthing) the passage in question here is 2 Timothy 4:13.

-CryptoLutheran

Was it not common for folks to have such an article of clothing?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Was it not common for folks to have such an article of clothing?

In the case of what the Apostle is talking about, he probably isn't talking about a piece of liturgical vestiture, but the article he is talking about is more-or-less what is called a chasuble in the West, the Greek-speaking East still calls it by the same name Paul does in 2 Timothy.

It's important to understand that clerical vestments aren't "special clothes" in the sense that they were designed specifically for clerical or liturgical use, they are simply the clothes people used to wear in antiquity.

Over time clerical and other liturgical vestiture simply didn't change, or rather has changed very, very little relative to the changing of clothing styles, trends, and advancements over history and the shifting of cultures.

So Paul wore a chasuble (or the antecedent to it rather), it's just that over the course of time nobody outside of a specifically liturgical and ecclesiastical context wore them. It's like how in the UK and many Commonwealth nations judges are the only ones who still wear powdered wigs, but at one point that was just something people wore.

-Lutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

In the case of what the Apostle is talking about, he probably isn't talking about a piece of liturgical vestiture, but the article he is talking about is more-or-less what is called a chasuble in the West, the Greek-speaking East still calls it by the same name Paul does in 2 Timothy.

It's important to understand that clerical vestments aren't "special clothes" in the sense that they were designed specifically for clerical or liturgical use, they are simply the clothes people used to wear in antiquity.

These two paragraphs seem to contradict each other ???

 

[ViaCrucis]

These two paragraphs seem to contradict each other ???

The first paragraph was addressing how Paul himself probably isn't referring to a chasuble for explicit ecclesiastical and liturgical use. The second paragraph is placing vestments within an historical context. People wore these things, so obviously so did clergy. Over time as culture changed, what people wore also changed. But ecclesiastical clothing remained more consistent over decades and centuries.

I was mostly trying to get ahead of the vestments are "fancy robes" line of thinking that tends to crop up in conversations about such matters, and which is also a line of thinking I used to have.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Zao is life]

Hi folks.

I am keen to pick you brains on a quandary I have.

I have had a vital walk with Jesus for the last 45 years.

I have attended a wide range of churches but recently been focussed on home based fellowship.

However, all of a sudden, I was woken from sleep a 2am with a surge of His presence through me accompanied by a deep conviction to expect a return to 'normal' church life and that there was an opportunity for ministry there. This came with a deep healing of rejection so profound that it took about three days for my mind to catch up with the change in my heart.

The last church I attended was disastrous and our whole family had to leave.

So my wife and I began to explore possibilities for fellowship.

Our first port of call was the Anglican church.

I appreciate how carefully the tradition has preserved the fundamental foundations of the faith and presents these in a liturgical format quite beautifully.

However attending a liturgical service was like visiting Mars. All the pomp and ceremony seemed to be devoid of the precious life in Jesus I have walked in for years.

Gentlemen assuming a priestly role that I have comfortably enjoyed for decades.

Knowing that these same men would dismiss for example precious and fruitful times I have has breaking bread with friends - given that in their eyes I am not 'ordained'.

On the positive side I get the impression that they are pretty embracing of whatever christian service one might assume to bring among them as long as their exclusive right to be elite is not challenged.

Now don't misunderstand me - I am open to what ever He wants and know that there is a Carl shaped space for me wherever He leads. There is some lovely and warm folks there and with my background in inner city ministry the fit may be made in heaven.

So the question is - are their folks out there that have been required to make this transition and what helpful advice would you give???

My only advice is you are not going to find perfection among imperfect humans. I'm a Pre-millennialist who believes in full immersion in water, adult Baptism, who would rather place myself in a pew listening to the teaching produced behind the pulpit of an Amil church that Baptizes infants, than go watching people going nuts and following the human imagination of all sorts of "prophets" (and prophetesses) in another type of church (not naming which type of church), nor do I want to sit in a pew surrounded by puffed-up congregation members full of themselves, led by a Pastor puffed up and full of himself, though they are Pre-mil and believe in full immersion in water, adult baptism.

No human is perfect, therefore accept the fact that no church is perfect, and go where Christ leads you, without trying to change anything or be somebody until the Lord makes more changes in your life, IMO.

Matthew 23
8 But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.
9 And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.
10 Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ.
11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whoever shall exalt himself shall be abased, and he who shall humble himself shall be exalted.

So if the rule in the Anglican church is you have to be ordained, then put yourself in their college.

Personally I believe the only leading the Lord wants any of His people to do, is leading the lost to Christ. An overseer or "Bishop" is only there to maintain order and orderliness and holiness in the congregation of those who are saved.

Be the leader the Lord wants you to be.

 

[Victor Humphreys]

Hi folks.

I am keen to pick you brains on a quandary I have.

I have had a vital walk with Jesus for the last 45 years.

I have attended a wide range of churches but recently been focussed on home based fellowship.

However, all of a sudden, I was woken from sleep a 2am with a surge of His presence through me accompanied by a deep conviction to expect a return to 'normal' church life and that there was an opportunity for ministry there. This came with a deep healing of rejection so profound that it took about three days for my mind to catch up with the change in my heart.

The last church I attended was disastrous and our whole family had to leave.

So my wife and I began to explore possibilities for fellowship.

Our first port of call was the Anglican church.

I appreciate how carefully the tradition has preserved the fundamental foundations of the faith and presents these in a liturgical format quite beautifully.

However attending a liturgical service was like visiting Mars. All the pomp and ceremony seemed to be devoid of the precious life in Jesus I have walked in for years.

Gentlemen assuming a priestly role that I have comfortably enjoyed for decades.

Knowing that these same men would dismiss for example precious and fruitful times I have has breaking bread with friends - given that in their eyes I am not 'ordained'.

On the positive side I get the impression that they are pretty embracing of whatever christian service one might assume to bring among them as long as their exclusive right to be elite is not challenged.

Now don't misunderstand me - I am open to what ever He wants and know that there is a Carl shaped space for me wherever He leads. There is some lovely and warm folks there and with my background in inner city ministry the fit may be made in heaven.

So the question is - are their folks out there that have been required to make this transition and what helpful advice would you give???

I have been to almost every church in Cincinnati, OH. I am in the same quandry. I want a home based fellowship where friends gather; eat, and talk about Jesus, not religion or any of the other pitfalls. I was thinking of starting a "Christian Friends" website for Cincy. But haven't decided.

 

[Norman70]

have been to almost every church in Cincinnati, OH. I am in the same quandry. I want a home based fellowship where friends gather; eat, and talk about Jesus, not religion or any of the other pitfalls. I was thinking of starting a "Christian Friends" website for Cincy. But haven't decided.

This has been an interesting thread to read, and enlightens me on the reasons some people attend institutional mainstream denominationals, sects or cults when they are true Christians in the sense of being members of the universal church of Christ.
My wife and myself no longer attend any Church. Our spiritual relationship is solely with God through Jesus. I am interested in Christian Anarchism and will never attend again any institutional Church. Going to a Church is not an essential requirement for a Christian, but there is nothing wrong in doing so if a person gains some spiritual uplift from the experience.
For something to do to help me keep in touch with God, along with my prayers, I have started a blog here!

 

[chevyontheriver]

Was it not common for folks to have such an article of clothing?

Much of current Catholic vestments were common elements of formal clothing from the first century. There is a hugh sartorial conservatism in the Catholic Church, not all of it absolutely necessary.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So if the rule in the Anglican church is you have to be ordained, then put yourself in their college.

At 74 they are unlikely to entertain such a proposition.

But I appreciate your general conclusion, thanks.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have been to almost every church in Cincinnati, OH. I am in the same quandry. I want a home based fellowship where friends gather; eat, and talk about Jesus, not religion or any of the other pitfalls. I was thinking of starting a "Christian Friends" website for Cincy. But haven't decided.

I am sure this can be a legit calling, but avoid a judgemental spirit that cant stop bagging the church. (I am not saying you would, but that is a common trap folks fall into)

I think also that church and community are two different domains of calling.

You could PM me if you want to discuss further.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think you are drawing a long bow to suggest such custom is biblical.

You said yourself that such developments occurred well after Pauline days and were an alignment with Roman custom.

I hope you don't get too caught up on talking about some of the minutiae of the exact nature of church uniforms, etc. and focus on the big picture. Like think of Liturgical Worship as a paradigm.

On some of the minutiae type issues I can point to the precedents in Judaism, and even point to churchs and synagogues that predate Constantine by 100+ years that show a lot of liturgical development in early Christianity and Judaism in their architecture, art etc.

Dura-Europos church - Wikipedia

Dura-Europos synagogue - Wikipedia



But anyway, I would rather you be open minded and be prepared to see the Faith a bit differently (in terms of history etc. ). Back in 1996 reading "The Purpose Driven Church" (an influential book that spawned not just lots of church growth books and movements, but the entire "Purpose Driven" self help movement", I generally assumed a minimalistic out look to Christian worship. It was about preaching Christ, and praising Jesus etc. But the forms, style etc. of music weren't really important. And in fact reading "The Purpose Driven Church" that is an essential theme and message, that is not just assumed but also preached and promoted. Much like radio stations have demographic audiences, the pastor Rick Warren urged church leaders to make church's targeted for a particular demographic in much the way radio stations, and TV stations function. Anyway, the head church has very modern services, even rock services similar to the parody video below.

Now to make things easy (since I'm tired didn't get any sleep), I'm just going to spell out some problems with this approach.


1) It encourages a consumeristic attitude toward the Church that is negative and at times antithetical to the Gospel. Church isn't about being entertained, and discipleship in the Biblical sense often is quite the opposite of that.


2) Likewise it also can encourage a lack of reverence for God. (I will detail this point out later for anyone interested).


3) But the main point however this sort of attitude is not really historical, factual, and I will submit Biblical.

There actually is only one form of worship that God ordained and that really is Liturgical worship! Now this goes back to the original tabernacle and temple, but as saint Paul mentions in Hebrews those were copies of the kind of worship we see in heaven. And that way of worship likewise was how the Jews patterned the worship of the synagogue, which likewise influenced directly the worship of the Early Church.


But back to paradigms...

There is a certain way of seeing Christianity, something I assumed for years myself. It's a Utilitarian and Minimalist view of the Church, I have nick named this viewpoint "Independent Contractors for Christ". The view point is the Church is just about doing a few things ministry wise, like the list of activities mentioned in "the Great Commission" etc. and more or less we have freedom to do those things as we see fit (it's part of our freedom in Christ etc.).



But this view is very different than a High Church view. The Church is not just about "What we do", but also "who we are", and even more importantly "Who God is". One of the greatest biblical themes that gets little attention in many worship services is the notion that God is a King, who is worthy of awe and reverence etc.

Besides this there are many important aspects of the theme of holiness, and dealing with the sacred. To many times these things are pooh poohed as superstition etc. especially ritualism, but going back to the earliest days of Judaism there is an important link to those things, and the spiritual and the supernatural. If you treated those things with disrespect that was an indirect insult to God who ordained them, (or in Christian terms is at least worshipped, honored by such a things). And if people want to argue I can point to a few New Testament examples of Anias and Saphira, and saint Paul mentioning people sometimes getting sick or dieing from Communion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This has been an interesting thread to read, and enlightens me on the reasons some people attend institutional mainstream denominationals, sects or cults when they are true Christians in the sense of being members of the universal church of Christ.
My wife and myself no longer attend any Church. Our spiritual relationship is solely with God through Jesus. I am interested in Christian Anarchism and will never attend again any institutional Church. Going to a Church is not an essential requirement for a Christian, but there is nothing wrong in doing so if a person gains some spiritual uplift from the experience.
For something to do to help me keep in touch with God, along with my prayers, I have started a blog here!

I am headed there not to get but to give. Orders from above. There is a work to be done it seems.

Amazing how what seems to be a spiritual mess is still an environment in which He moves with great Love.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I hope you don't get too caught up on talking about some of the minutiae of the exact nature of church uniforms, etc. and focus on the big picture. Like think of Liturgical Worship as a paradigm.

On some of the minutiae type issues I can point to the precedents in Judaism, and even point to churchs and synagogues that predate Constantine by 100+ years that show a lot of liturgical development in early Christianity and Judaism in their architecture, art etc.

Dura-Europos church - Wikipedia

Dura-Europos synagogue - Wikipedia



But anyway, I would rather you be open minded and be prepared to see the Faith a bit differently (in terms of history etc. ). Back in 1996 reading "The Purpose Driven Church" (an influential book that spawned not just lots of church growth books and movements, but the entire "Purpose Driven" self help movement", I generally assumed a minimalistic out look to Christian worship. It was about preaching Christ, and praising Jesus etc. But the forms, style etc. of music weren't really important. And in fact reading "The Purpose Driven Church" that is an essential theme and message, that is not just assumed but also preached and promoted. Much like radio stations have demographic audiences, the pastor Rick Warren urged church leaders to make church's targeted for a particular demographic in much the way radio stations, and TV stations function. Anyway, the head church has very modern services, even rock services similar to the parody video below.

Now to make things easy (since I'm tired didn't get any sleep), I'm just going to spell out some problems with this approach.


1) It encourages a consumeristic attitude toward the Church that is negative and at times antithetical to the Gospel. Church isn't about being entertained, and discipleship in the Biblical sense often is quite the opposite of that.


2) Likewise it also can encourage a lack of reverence for God. (I will detail this point out later for anyone interested).


3) But the main point however this sort of attitude is not really historical, factual, and I will submit Biblical.

There actually is only one form of worship that God ordained and that really is Liturgical worship! Now this goes back to the original tabernacle and temple, but as saint Paul mentions in Hebrews those were copies of the kind of worship we see in heaven. And that way of worship likewise was how the Jews patterned the worship of the synagogue, which likewise influenced directly the worship of the Early Church.


But back to paradigms...

There is a certain way of seeing Christianity, something I assumed for years myself. It's a Utilitarian and Minimalist view of the Church, I have nick named this viewpoint "Independent Contractors for Christ". The view point is the Church is just about doing a few things ministry wise, like the list of activities mentioned in "the Great Commission" etc. and more or less we have freedom to do those things as we see fit (it's part of our freedom in Christ etc.).



But this view is very different than a High Church view. The Church is not just about "What we do", but also "who we are", and even more importantly "Who God is". One of the greatest biblical themes that gets little attention in many worship services is the notion that God is a King, who is worthy of awe and reverence etc.

Besides this there are many important aspects of the theme of holiness, and dealing with the sacred. To many times these things are pooh poohed as superstition etc. especially ritualism, but going back to the earliest days of Judaism there is an important link to those things, and the spiritual and the supernatural. If you treated those things with disrespect that was an indirect insult to God who ordained them, (or in Christian terms is at least worshipped, honored by such a things). And if people want to argue I can point to a few New Testament examples of Anias and Saphira, and saint Paul mentioning people sometimes getting sick or dieing from Communion.

Pavel,

After you get some sleep - check out the book I recommended by the late Rev. Dr. Harold Turner - From Temple to Meetinghouse - I mentioned this earlier in the thread but no one commented - it is a very thoughtful and thorough thesis on this issue.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I hope you don't get too caught up on talking about some of the minutiae of the exact nature of church uniforms, etc. and focus on the big picture. Like think of Liturgical Worship as a paradigm.

On some of the minutiae type issues I can point to the precedents in Judaism, and even point to churchs and synagogues that predate Constantine by 100+ years that show a lot of liturgical development in early Christianity and Judaism in their architecture, art etc.

Dura-Europos church - Wikipedia

Dura-Europos synagogue - Wikipedia



But anyway, I would rather you be open minded and be prepared to see the Faith a bit differently (in terms of history etc. ). Back in 1996 reading "The Purpose Driven Church" (an influential book that spawned not just lots of church growth books and movements, but the entire "Purpose Driven" self help movement", I generally assumed a minimalistic out look to Christian worship. It was about preaching Christ, and praising Jesus etc. But the forms, style etc. of music weren't really important. And in fact reading "The Purpose Driven Church" that is an essential theme and message, that is not just assumed but also preached and promoted. Much like radio stations have demographic audiences, the pastor Rick Warren urged church leaders to make church's targeted for a particular demographic in much the way radio stations, and TV stations function. Anyway, the head church has very modern services, even rock services similar to the parody video below.

Now to make things easy (since I'm tired didn't get any sleep), I'm just going to spell out some problems with this approach.


1) It encourages a consumeristic attitude toward the Church that is negative and at times antithetical to the Gospel. Church isn't about being entertained, and discipleship in the Biblical sense often is quite the opposite of that.


2) Likewise it also can encourage a lack of reverence for God. (I will detail this point out later for anyone interested).


3) But the main point however this sort of attitude is not really historical, factual, and I will submit Biblical.

There actually is only one form of worship that God ordained and that really is Liturgical worship! Now this goes back to the original tabernacle and temple, but as saint Paul mentions in Hebrews those were copies of the kind of worship we see in heaven. And that way of worship likewise was how the Jews patterned the worship of the synagogue, which likewise influenced directly the worship of the Early Church.


But back to paradigms...

There is a certain way of seeing Christianity, something I assumed for years myself. It's a Utilitarian and Minimalist view of the Church, I have nick named this viewpoint "Independent Contractors for Christ". The view point is the Church is just about doing a few things ministry wise, like the list of activities mentioned in "the Great Commission" etc. and more or less we have freedom to do those things as we see fit (it's part of our freedom in Christ etc.).



But this view is very different than a High Church view. The Church is not just about "What we do", but also "who we are", and even more importantly "Who God is". One of the greatest biblical themes that gets little attention in many worship services is the notion that God is a King, who is worthy of awe and reverence etc.

Besides this there are many important aspects of the theme of holiness, and dealing with the sacred. To many times these things are pooh poohed as superstition etc. especially ritualism, but going back to the earliest days of Judaism there is an important link to those things, and the spiritual and the supernatural. If you treated those things with disrespect that was an indirect insult to God who ordained them, (or in Christian terms is at least worshipped, honored by such a things). And if people want to argue I can point to a few New Testament examples of Anias and Saphira, and saint Paul mentioning people sometimes getting sick or dieing from Communion.

Yes I am processing the issues you raise - good post thanks.

 

[Zao is life]

At 74 they are unlikely to entertain such a proposition.

But I appreciate your general conclusion, thanks.

I understand the dilemma, but I think it's an age-old problem with "Churchianity" (meaning it's been ongoing problem since the post-apostolic period).

Anyway all I know is I'm not perfect so anyone who ends up in a home-based church with me, is in an imperfect church.

 

[rturner76]

Yes, from house to house with a shared meal - beautiful - and a far cry from the extreme formality being presented today.

However, I am more concerned to get others comments on this transition, I just feel deeply sad that the family life of the church community has been replaced by a tight predicable performance.

I will however stay quiet as advised.

I lost some things that were important to me and my spirituality when I changed churches to a more formal congregation BUT I gained other avenues to spiritual growth which I now cherish. Also in my situation, as a Parish member, there are a multitude of monasteries that are available for getting away from the world and having a few days of prayer and fasting with five Masses available all throughout the day. Spiritual advising is available or it can be a silent retreat where I don't utter a word to anyone, fast, pray, study, and attend Mass. None of that was available to me in my former church and I get so much out of it I could just burst with love, devotion, and gratitude by the end of a retreat. I know you're situation is different but it may be nice for you as a natural leader to spend some time in submission. Accepting guidance form clergy on what to study during a particular season of the year or season of your life.

Lastly, what I miss out on in the more emotional aspects of my former church, I now get fulfilled by the opportunities to volunteer for all of the ministries my Parish is involved with. From handing out coffee and sandwiches to anyone that comes to the Basillica, handing out free Bibles and talking with people about what they like to study and how they will use their new Bible while telling my story also really touches my heart and fills me with gratitude,. Even just sweeping the stairs or putting out salt and sand on the sidewalk in winter, there are so many ways to help people and get help where I am now that I can't see going anywhere else even though I miss the hymns and the old lady from my former congregation.

So it could turn out that you gain some comfort from the ritual nature of the service. Ritual is like a routine and many people find comfort in their routines. There may also be more ministries that the larger church offers in the way of things like Sunday school, homeless outreach, addiction support, or tons of other ways to reach and teach people. There may also be room for a learned person like yourself to lead a Bible study or a theological discussion group, or a men's group. I'm sure you will feel called to an idea. With the facilities and congregation available, you may find that you can grow a ministry of your own within the church with whatever focus you are passionate about.

This being a family church for you, I suggest trying to look for things you like about the church and try to shy away from keeping score of what you don't like, unless of course something really bothers you. You must also listen to/for your call as a minister.

Hope this helps, sorry to drone on and on. From what I have seen you post, I am confident that you will figure out where you belong. I just pray that you give it a good honest try before giving up one it.

May God bless you, keep you, and inspire you

 

[dzheremi]

Were it not for the difference in language (this is Arabic, which was not formally used in the Church of Egypt before the 12th century AD), you could be forgiven for thinking you were somehow watching a video from the days of St. Anthony, the father of Christian monasticism:

Hi folks.

I am keen to pick you brains on a quandary I have.

I have had a vital walk with Jesus for the last 45 years.

I have attended a wide range of churches but recently been focussed on home based fellowship.

However, all of a sudden, I was woken from sleep a 2am with a surge of His presence through me accompanied by a deep conviction to expect a return to 'normal' church life and that there was an opportunity for ministry there. This came with a deep healing of rejection so profound that it took about three days for my mind to catch up with the change in my heart.

The last church I attended was disastrous and our whole family had to leave.

So my wife and I began to explore possibilities for fellowship.

Our first port of call was the Anglican church.

I appreciate how carefully the tradition has preserved the fundamental foundations of the faith and presents these in a liturgical format quite beautifully.

However attending a liturgical service was like visiting Mars. All the pomp and ceremony seemed to be devoid of the precious life in Jesus I have walked in for years.

Gentlemen assuming a priestly role that I have comfortably enjoyed for decades.

Knowing that these same men would dismiss for example precious and fruitful times I have has breaking bread with friends - given that in their eyes I am not 'ordained'.

On the positive side I get the impression that they are pretty embracing of whatever christian service one might assume to bring among them as long as their exclusive right to be elite is not challenged.

Now don't misunderstand me - I am open to what ever He wants and know that there is a Carl shaped space for me wherever He leads. There is some lovely and warm folks there and with my background in inner city ministry the fit may be made in heaven.

So the question is - are their folks out there that have been required to make this transition and what helpful advice would you give???

Honestly, as someone who has been in everything from a Baptist church to Orthodox, the main thing I would counsel against is this idea of a church having a 'you-shaped' hole or space. The doors of the Church are always open, but Christ did counsel us that we are to enter through the narrow gate (Matthew 7:13), so there is a sense by which we must fit in a space that will not always be a perfectly comfortable fit for us. The point isn't to endure any sort of actual abuse, but to conform oneself to the faith that the Church is the incubator, transmitter, and defender of.

This is not "shut up and sit down", as there is everything to do as a layperson. In Orthodoxy anyway (in distinction from Roman Catholicism), if there are no people, there cannot even be a liturgy. We laypeople are essential. Heck, the entire liturgy is in some sense a dialogue between the people, the clergy, and God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I lost some things that were important to me and my spirituality when I changed churches to a more formal congregation BUT I gained other avenues to spiritual growth which I now cherish. Also in my situation, as a Parish member, there are a multitude of monasteries that are available for getting away from the world and having a few days of prayer and fasting with five Masses available all throughout the day. Spiritual advising is available or it can be a silent retreat where I don't utter a word to anyone, fast, pray, study, and attend Mass. None of that was available to me in my former church and I get so much out of it I could just burst with love, devotion, and gratitude by the end of a retreat. I know you're situation is different but it may be nice for you as a natural leader to spend some time in submission. Accepting guidance form clergy on what to study during a particular season of the year or season of your life.

Lastly, what I miss out on in the more emotional aspects of my former church, I now get fulfilled by the opportunities to volunteer for all of the ministries my Parish is involved with. From handing out coffee and sandwiches to anyone that comes to the Basillica, handing out free Bibles and talking with people about what they like to study and how they will use their new Bible while telling my story also really touches my heart and fills me with gratitude,. Even just sweeping the stairs or putting out salt and sand on the sidewalk in winter, there are so many ways to help people and get help where I am now that I can't see going anywhere else even though I miss the hymns and the old lady from my former congregation.

So it could turn out that you gain some comfort from the ritual nature of the service. Ritual is like a routine and many people find comfort in their routines. There may also be more ministries that the larger church offers in the way of things like Sunday school, homeless outreach, addiction support, or tons of other ways to reach and teach people. There may also be room for a learned person like yourself to lead a Bible study or a theological discussion group, or a men's group. I'm sure you will feel called to an idea. With the facilities and congregation available, you may find that you can grow a ministry of your own within the church with whatever focus you are passionate about.

This being a family church for you, I suggest trying to look for things you like about the church and try to shy away from keeping score of what you don't like, unless of course something really bothers you. You must also listen to/for your call as a minister.

Hope this helps, sorry to drone on and on. From what I have seen you post, I am confident that you will figure out where you belong. I just pray that you give it a good honest try before giving up one it.

May God bless you, keep you, and inspire you

Yes some good points noted thanks...