Liturgical Christianity

[Carl Emerson]

I won't be engaging with you any further.

That's fine but I really would like to know what exactly is your position on the church - do you think the institutional church is Babylon and we are to stay out of her???

 

[Norman70]

do you think the institutional church is Babylon and we are to stay out of her???

I say yes, the institutional Church is a man-made device and is the works of the devil. We must get back to God only through Jesus, which is a spiritual enterprise. We do not need institutional Churches once we become mature Christians.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I say yes, the institutional Church is a man-made device and is the works of the devil. We must get back to God only through Jesus, which is a spiritual enterprise. We do not need institutional Churches once we become mature Christians.

Except, and I can't stress this enough, Jesus is the One who instituted His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Paidiske]

So I'm coming to this late, and my comments may or may not be helpful. But as someone who first came to church as an adult, and who struggled to understand and participate in the liturgy, perhaps I can at least try.

However attending a liturgical service was like visiting Mars. All the pomp and ceremony seemed to be devoid of the precious life in Jesus I have walked in for years.

I can relate to this. My analogy would be that it is like learning to speak another language. When you first hear an unfamiliar language, it can seem like nonsense; meaningless babble and with no edifying content. But once you have learned the language (which is about more than theoretical knowledge but familiarity with its patterns of expression and the formation of new cognitive connections for you) those sounds resolve themselves into something which can convey love, joy and peace intensely and deeply.

I found learning the liturgy to be like this. At first I found it cold, distant and alienating; but over time I had enough immersion in it/experience of it for it to be deeply nourishing and lifegiving.

But that took years. It definitely didn't happen in one visit. Give it time and let it grow in you.

Knowing that these same men would dismiss for example precious and fruitful times I have has breaking bread with friends - given that in their eyes I am not 'ordained'.

I would say don't make assumptions about what their own attitudes would be. For myself, I would never dismiss experiences others had elsewhere. Of course you wouldn't be able to assume that role in the church you're looking to move into, but that doesn't detract from how God has been with you in the past.

We are made for community, and for me, at least, the benefits of community well repay the effort it takes to learn to be part of one.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes - great contribution Paidiske...

Things are progressing rather well.

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

 

[Norman70]

Jesus is the One who instituted His Church.

You seem to be missing my point, and I tried to make it clear by my reference to the SDA Quarterly "Oneness in Christ" therefore I will refer to it again. They used the phrase 'the universal church of Christ' and wrote in its first pages that the Seventh Day Church was not the universal church of Christ. The Quarterly then went on to describe what they thought was the universal church of Christ, and explained how there are only a few mature Christians in any Church (note now I use an upper case 'C' to mean the institutional Churches) and taken together world-wide these people are the universal church of Christ. I am sure there are others who belong and do not even attend a Church, and I try to be one of those.
Jesus did not institute a Church. The word 'institution' is middle English apparently, therefore the idea of this was not in peoples' minds, although authoritarianism, which establishes institutions, most certainly was. God reluctantly gave the Israelites a king (1 Samuel). He told Samuel that a king would put the men in his armies and the women in the fields. Say no more! On this rock Jesus will build His church, with no reference to institutional authority whatsoever.
Of course, there is a distinction between authority and authoritarianism, the latter requiring power, use of force and the threat of punishment. God is not a punishing God.

 

[NBB]

I don't see a problem with insitutions, it just a way to orgranize things, like somtime some pastors agreed on something they got together to work, then you have an institution, the problem is when institutions have wrong doctrine i guess.

 

[Norman70]

I don't see a problem with institutions, it's just a way to organize things.

I must amend my reference to institutions, having searched a little more on its meanings nowadays. Sociology distinguishes in the first instance two types of institution, formal and informal, I am obviously thinking mostly about formal institutions. However, I honestly believe that informal institutions quickly become formal as the devil gets to work on these edifices of man. For instance, in sociological terms family is described as an informal institution, but my experience of most families are that they are highly structured, patriarchal or matriarchal, and few members encourage the liberation of its young from authoritarianism. One of my books is entitled "Children's Rights", sub-titled "towards the liberation of the child", a collection of essays by libertarians. These rights are summarized on its sleeve as self-determination, freedom of speech and thought, freedom from fear and want, freedom to form relationships, (and) even the ownership of one's own body, systematically denied to children.
This thread is, of course, about Liturgical Christianity, but the paraphernalia and trappings which we all associate with liturgy serve only to bolster up the authoritarianism of the Churches, I believe.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I say yes, the institutional Church is a man-made device and is the works of the devil. We must get back to God only through Jesus, which is a spiritual enterprise. We do not need institutional Churches once we become mature Christians.

OK to update...

Not only did I get woken in the middle of the night with a word that He wanted me to minister in a church.

I got woken a second time with a similar overwhelming sense of His presence and received four Words confirming the direction.

1 - I saw the stone wall of the church in question confirming that was indeed the church of His choice.

2 - I saw a man crying out for help near death. I immediately got the sense that there were folks within the reach of this church that He wanted to minister to and set free.

3 - The words repeated 'faithful' several times (I have asked for further clarity on this)

4 - A hole in the ground in the church grounds where something had been buried.

Number 2 was interesting given that my wife and I prayed with a disturbed chap after the service...

But Number 4 was the clincher...

It so happened that the Vicar approached us after the service and asked about our past and passion for the future. So I shared exactly what I have shared here - the call in the night and the confirmation regarding the 4 'words'. He was un-phased by my prophetic disposition.

His response was quite encouraging.

He felt the timing of our coming was perfect and mentioned that during renovations, an old stone cross was found buried in the church grounds!
It was restored to its rightful place on the church building.

This was highly symbolic and we all knew it.

The vicar was very laid back and very warm towards us and our possible contribution to the church.

So I cant fault the process - every aspect of the journey back to church has been bathed in peace.

Does that mean that I believe all is well in the institutional church? Of course not, but we have a calling and a work to do.

Matt 23 comes to mind - do what they say but do not do what they do, Jesus said.

We will merge in and retain our vital connection with Him.

We will leave judgement up to Him and serve Him where we are planted.

If Jesus had a problem with attending institutional worship, he would never have attended the temple. Paul likewise never spoke against attending and did so himself.

 

[Norman70]

If Jesus had a problem with attending institutional worship, he would never have attended the temple. Paul likewise never spoke against attending and did so himself.

I find your post very interesting and in no way would I deny your experience. Neither am I out to belittle you or any other worshippers who attend an institutional Church, we are all in a learning process. This bring me to a point about what we read in the Bible. The words, written in the languages of the times, were intended for readers of those times. People were steeped in their views of God from the Old Testament writings, God as a punishing God, and hell for the damned. But then God came to earth as a man, Jesus, so that they could relate to Him as a loving person.
In those times attendance at institutional Churches and Temples was accepted as normal, and Jesus wanted to be seen to be a normal mortal man so He attended. Paul was just a mortal man steeped in the accepted rituals and beliefs of the people with whom he lived in those times and therefore saw it as quite appropriate and correct to attend Church. However, we are now two thousand years later and our views on these matters are evolving. God is not a punishing God, there is no hellfire and damnation, and we do not have to attend an established, institutional Church.
Many of the early anarchists of the 19th century were solely political and rejected all authority including that of God, even now many see Christianity and anarchism as an oxymoron, but our views of anarchy are evolving and Christian Anarchy seems to me to be an interesting idea. However, I do not want it to be set up as another institution, therefore my comment, that I am not out to find fault with those who attend Church for their spiritual development, is foundational. Everyone to their own when it comes to our relationship with God through Jesus. God bless.

 

[literaryjoe]

Pavel,

After you get some sleep - check out the book I recommended by the late Rev. Dr. Harold Turner - From Temple to Meetinghouse - I mentioned this earlier in the thread but no one commented - it is a very thoughtful and thorough thesis on this issue.

Whew! That book costs $150 here in the USA...could you summarize its message, perhaps?

 

[literaryjoe]

Carl, I was very encouraged by your post #109, explaining the approach you plan to take. The reason being that I have come to recognize that this is a pattern God intended for His people from the beginning.

There have been some interesting comments in this thread regarding origins of various aspects of the liturgy/vestments, etc., many of which are historically accurate but still miss the primary point: the Temple service is a copy or pattern of the heavenly worship Moses was shown, our worship is stylized on that same basis. The liturgy, the vestments, etc. all point to truths revealed in the only detailed, biblical pattern for worship we are given in Scripture.

Using the prescription for life given by God to the ancient Israelites, we see another pattern: while journeying through the wilderness they encamped by divine order in a pattern surrounding the Tabernacle, where the sanctuary was arranged sort of like the hub of a wheel, with the various tribes arrayed around it like spokes, if you will. That picture was instructive: their lives were to revolve around the worship of God.

Similarly, they were a nation of priests and yet the Levites were singled out to be practicing, dedicated priests. This did not mean, however, that fathers were not to function as the "priests" of their families, for example. Furthermore, just as this formal worship was occurring constantly and representing all Israel as it did so, the people were to attend at minimum three times per year, but they also worshiped locally in their villages in what came to be known (in the passage of time) as synagogues, which literally just means "gatherings."

What I'm trying to point out is that what you have experienced in home fellowships and what is happening in more formal "church" assemblies are both intended to be part of our worshiping experience.

Humans are formed/shaped/discipled not just by words, but also by actions, behaviors, experiences. Not just by relational interaction, but also by seeing, desiring, and hearing. God intended for our worship experience to address every single aspect of our humanity: nothing is left unaddressed or unministered to by His design.

I suspect that just as you have something to contribute to those who may have been in the more formal church for years, there is also something for you to receive by this God-prompted return to the "traditional" form of believers gathering.

Many blessings in your journey!

 

[Carl Emerson]

the Temple service is a copy or pattern of the heavenly worship Moses was shown, our worship is stylized on that same basis.

Interesting position and not one I hold at this point.

That is what Turners book was about.

The transition from temple worship to simply gathering together as His body.

We read about it in early Acts.

It seems that believers eventually succumbed to the influence of the Romans and adopted the temple model despite the fact that God desecrated and destroyed the remaining old covenant temple worship.

Despite the teaching that we are now the living stones.

Returning to temple worship is returning to institution, buildings, and the model that promotes 'professional' christians and the laity. In doing so the voice of the 'least' is unheard - along with the prophetic voice both are muted.

There is a very strong parallel from 2 Chron 18 that spells out the essence of this error and calls for release for the man made battle, the return of true shepherds and the word of prophesy, and service to the Lord from home base.

As we are not there yet, and because His heart pours out for the lost, some are led to truely serve Him in this man made environment. As the battle heats up the true church under persecution will again become mobile and less building centred as in China.

In the mean time I am blessed to be able to serve together with others in the 'system' - at the end of the day it is about His Body and the lost and hurting, not expensive symbolic presentations of theological importance, but whether we carried His living water to the thirsty.

 

[hedrick]

There is no such thing as 'non-denominational liturgy' so I guess you are right.

I spoke of the possibility of non-denominational community as a seperate entity from the institutional church.

There sort of is. Around the 1960's there was something that was referred to as the liturgical renewal movement. It was a reassessment of liturgy in most of the mainline denominations. The core principles were the same. While there are differing implementations in different denominations, you could call it a non-denominational liturgy.

 

[literaryjoe]

the Temple service is a copy or pattern of the heavenly worship Moses was shown, our worship is stylized on that same basis.

Interesting position and not one I hold at this point.

So this point is not really up for debate... The fact of the Tabernacle/Temple service being patterned after the real that is in Heaven is stated plainly in Exodus 25:8-9, 26:30, and 27:8, then reiterated in Hebrews 8:5. Similarly, but demonstrable via observation and comparison is that the Temple Service gave rise to the Synagogue liturgy, and our liturgy is the direct descendant thereof.

I suppose one could question whether that was proper, but not that it presently is. And, I would encourage you to see an essential and primary continuity between the testaments (with secondary discontinuity) rather than a primary discontinuity. After all, it is the same God, with the same plan, working with the same book (gradually developing), possessed of the same, unchanging character, and forming the same people (the Israel of God, comprised always of both Jew and Gentile, with time-shifting majority of composition, but revealed eventually to always have been intended to include not just Israel-after-the-flesh, but also the "Assyrians, Egyptians, and Cush" (to quote Isaiah) or Jew and Gentile in the commonwealth of Israel (to quote Paul).

By observation we may observe that the pattern of biblical worship, which is an imitation of the worship that is in Heaven, may be described by five C's: Convocation, Confession, Consecration, Communion, and Commission. If this is the pattern that was revealed to be occurring in Heaven then it is also the destiny of all saved mankind in the world to come, and if it was good for us then (past tense), and it will be good for us then (future tense), why would it not be good for us in the present tense? After all God is a lover and a blesser, the giver of every good and every perfect gift that comes down from above.

Now there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, but despite our freedom to experiment in concert with the bible's instructions, we are commanded by Paul to "be imitators of God therefore, as dearly beloved children" (Eph 5:1). So...for me, I cannot imagine that I or any other human is capable of designing a better, more effective, fuller worship pattern than God came up with.

That having been said, however, we often forget what the essence of the rituals we practice are (how many recall that the bride and groom walking down an aisle between two "sides" or witnesses is a picture of "cutting a covenant"?) and if you can bring the reminder of that relational essence from your experiences to those who have preserved practices they may no longer recall the full significance of, I think you will also discover great blessing in watching and participating in the celebration, recollection, and anticipation of those historical actions that enabled the very relationship you prize.

The transition from temple worship to simply gathering together as His body.

We read about it in early Acts.

It seems that believers eventually succumbed to the influence of the Romans and adopted the temple model despite the fact that God desecrated and destroyed the remaining old covenant temple worship.

Despite the teaching that we are now the living stones.

Returning to temple worship is returning to institution, buildings, and the model that promotes 'professional' christians and the laity. In doing so the voice of the 'least' is unheard - along with the prophetic voice both are muted.

There is a very strong parallel from 2 Chron 18 that spells out the essence of this error and calls for release for the man made battle, the return of true shepherds and the word of prophesy, and service to the Lord from home base.

As we are not there yet, and because His heart pours out for the lost, some are led to truely serve Him in this man made environment. As the battle heats up the true church under persecution will again become mobile and less building centred as in China.

Whew! As someone who grew up in this supposed "released" environment, and found it overwhelmingly incapable of producing profound transformative change in myself and everyone I knew, this makes me incredibly sad. I commend to you the idea that God's model is all-encompassing, not either/or.

In the mean time I am blessed to be able to serve together with others in the 'system' - at the end of the day it is about His Body and the lost and hurting, not expensive symbolic presentations of theological importance, but whether we carried His living water to the thirsty.

Once again: it's not either/or, it's both/and. There will be much for you to learn at the "system" congregation, just as there is for is much for you to contribute. I anticipate the blessing that God's leading will continue to be for you!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Whew! As someone who grew up in this supposed "released" environment, and found it overwhelmingly incapable of producing profound transformative change in myself and everyone I knew, this makes me incredibly sad. I commend to you the idea that God's model is all-encompassing, not either/or.

Yes, He is at work everywhere, we can agree on that.

My journey out of bondage and finding healing (a seven year process) involved the following:

1. Attending the Anglican Order of St Luke every week for a year. Here I was healed of what was a permanent pain deep in my spirit.

2. Being sovereignly touched by Him outside of the context of 'church'.

3. Attending a Baptist church massively impacted by the renewal in the mid 70's

4. Attending various prayer communities.

There is a link on post #9 if you want to read about my journey.

So I am not fussed about where He wants me but fitting into a liturgical framework is challenging for sure. My faith naturally flows out of me, I'm not used to premeditated formulas. However I can see they are a vehicle to preserve the truth of the faith.

 

[Jeshu]

I just feel deeply sad that the family life of the church community has been replaced by a tight predicable performance.

i share your grief and have grieved it for many long years. i find myself placed in a Church where tradition rules and often not God's revealed love.

As for what i get out of Church? Nothing much, though lately i have been listening to good progressive sermons by a pastor of one of our Churches in Canada, so that has been nice. Overall going to Church makes me unwell. i get so terrible frustrated by the tight predicable performance. Where the Spirit of God seems to have been silenced.

i try and give myself as much as possible to individuals within the leadership of the Church. i will discuss all the issues i'm having with the Church, hoping that some time, after my life time i'm sure, improvements will be made.

i try and expose what is wrong and has bad fruits in the Church because of that and i promote those things which are blessed and bear good fruits.

This has not been without success. We, that is my wife and i changed the mind of the whole Church council when they decided that our down syndrome daughter could not attend the table of the Lord. Sure it took us 3 years but we won the battle. i have motivated Pastors to preach on the grace of God we find in Jesus Christ, and counselled people who had troubles in their lives. i have had elders confessing their sins and repenting of them and motivated people to be a blessing in the Church.


Just be a blessing with the gifts Jesus has given you and don't think too much what's in it for you. That is the mentality i have taken about all this.

 

[Norman70]

There will be much for you to learn at the "system" congregation,

Before we gave up going to a Church altogether, my wife and myself, both baptised into ìnstitutional Churches of one denomination or another, during the last few years of attendance all we learnt was the corruption of the Church and its exploitation of its members. All Churches are man-made and are the workings of the devil, we do not need to go to Church nor need any of its liturgy. I believe that my wife and myself belong to the universal church of Christ (note the lower case "c") and can meet other mature Christians anywhere and at any time, we do not need any manifestation of authoritarianism, that is, authority imposed by force and the threat of punishment. God is not a punishing God. We are,of course, willing to hold fellowship with anyone, believers or non-believers, but their dependence on authoritarianism is immovable. All we can do is pray for them whilst we wait for the Second Coming of Christ.
When I put the behaviour of the early Christians as described in Acts, where they pooled their resources, to some SDA members they just laughed and said it would not work. Say no more. God bless.

 

[literaryjoe]

Yes, He is at work everywhere, we can agree on that.

My journey out of bondage and finding healing (a seven year process) involved the following:

1. Attending the Anglican Order of St Luke every week for a year. Here I was healed of what was a permanent pain deep in my spirit.

2. Being sovereignly touched by Him outside of the context of 'church'.

3. Attending a Baptist church massively impacted by the renewal in the mid 70's

4. Attending various prayer communities.

There is a link on post #9 if you want to read about my journey.

So I am not fussed about where He wants me but fitting into a liturgical framework is challenging for sure. My faith naturally flows out of me, I'm not used to premeditated formulas. However I can see they are a vehicle to preserve the truth of the faith.

I enjoyed reading your testimony of God's work in your life and through your obedience, Carl.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I enjoyed reading your testimony of God's work in your life and through your obedience, Carl.

I wrote it partly because I was going to write a book but maybe my descendants can read about me here. I would like to know if there is a way to download my content.

I smile when you speak of obedience - I think of Jonah - God was so patient with Him - I dont deserve His love - I think obedience flows out of love - I am an undeserving prodigal - I attribute my salvation to the prayers of my mother and grandmother - and His great love.