Liturgical Christianity

[Norman70]

1) Are Christians allowed to gather for worship together?

Christians will always gather together for worship, where two or more or gathered, there too will be Jesus. My wife and myself are all that we need to form a church.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes. But if God pulled you out of factions and man-derived relious observances, why would He send you back into it, unless to lead people out of it a la a Moses.

You might like to study 2 Kings 5.

Clearly God was with Naaman and forgave him in advance for participating in a temple dedicated to a Pagan God !!! Notice that he was required to go through the motions of demonic worship, yet his heart was fully toward YHWH.

Frankly this truth gives me confidence to follow Him in obedience anywhere on earth - in church - out of church - even in a Pagan temple for the purpose of sharing the Gospel and seeing folk set free.

Yes this is an extreme example, but we worship an extreme God who is more than able to keep us safe in any spiritual environment so that we are not hindered in our obedient service.

As I have said before, it is not about what traditions may rule, but about Jesus compassion for the hearts of folk broken, lost, blind and lame.

 

[dzheremi]

So do you see Phil 2:13 referring to the church rather than the individual?

"For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose. "

Sorry I missed this earlier. I don't see why it can't be both, depending. It is clear that this is manifest in the life of individual Christians, as well as in groups of Christians in communion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sorry I missed this earlier. I don't see why it can't be both, depending. It is clear that this is manifest in the life of individual Christians, as well as in groups of Christians in communion.

Expecting a 'you shaped space' has nothing to do with comfort, but has to do with calling commitment and obedience. I am speaking about something much deeper than an emotional reaction to the immediate environment.

 

[dzheremi]

Expecting a 'you shaped space' has nothing to do with comfort, but has to do with calling commitment an obedience.

I don't know what "an obedience" is. What do you mean?

I am speaking about something much deeper than an emotional reaction to the immediate environment.

As was Christ when He said to enter through the narrow gate. My comment was meant to exalt the role of every person in the Church (so in that specific sense, every congregation should have a 'you shaped hole'), not necessarily absent a personal calling or however you mean it, but safe in the knowledge that by submitting such things to the Church we will end up where we need to be. The scriptures do after all call the Church the pillar and ground of truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and call upon us to come before the Church to resolve disputes between brethren (Matthew 18:15-17), and those who do not accept their appropriate role(s) are engaging in nothing else, having set themselves up above the Church in those cases where they refuse to take its council. (Please note that I am not meaning to suggest that you are doing so in any way, shape, or form, as I don't know you from Adam; I am only meaning to write in generalities concerning what it means to join a church with traditional ecclesiology, which is itself expressed via the liturgy as well as outside of it.)

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't know what "an obedience" is. What do you mean?

Typo... and obedience

 

[dzheremi]

Typo... and obedience

Ah. That changes things considerably. Thank you. I wasn't sure if there was some use of that word outside of Orthodox circles that I was not aware of.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't know what "an obedience" is. What do you mean?



As was Christ when He said to enter through the narrow gate. My comment was meant to exalt the role of every person in the Church (so in that specific sense, every congregation should have a 'you shaped hole'), not necessarily absent a personal calling or however you mean it, but safe in the knowledge that by submitting such things to the Church we will end up where we need to be. The scriptures do after all call the Church the pillar and ground of truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and call upon us to come before the Church to resolve disputes between brethren (Matthew 18:15-17), and those who do not accept their appropriate role(s) are engaging in nothing else, having set themselves up above the Church in those cases where they refuse to take its council. (Please note that I am not meaning to suggest that you are doing so in any way, shape, or form, as I don't know you from Adam; I am only meaning to write in generalities concerning what it means to join a church with traditional ecclesiology, which is itself expressed via the liturgy as well as outside of it.)

I am all good with this, having seen Him move dramatically when the church got it wrong for the sake of the folks under their charge.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think what I will struggle with most is that for years I have broken bread with friends, ministered to street folks in this way and seen much healing. Used a full loaf and real wine as Jesus did.

The ritual being presented seems quite plastic.

I am not questioning it's spiritual efficacy, it is just that Jesus was a friend of sinners and was very down to earth among them - not presenting a piety (do not taste, do not touch) but Emamuel - God with us - sitting with believers sharing a common meal, certainly not adopting a formal priestly role with all the trappings as the levites did - but being in appearance as a common man.

This I will miss.

Sometimes I break bread by myself as a natural way of being in communion with Him. It just seems the loving thing to do - engaging intimately with a friend.

 

[Tony B]

I am not questioning it's spiritual efficacy, it is just that Jesus was a friend of sinners and was very down to earth among them - not presenting a piety (do not taste, do not touch) but Emamuel - God with us - sitting with believers sharing a common meal, certainly not adopting a formal priestly role with all the trappings as the levites did - but being in appearance as a common man.

Isn't this a contradiction to what your are now contemplating doing.

Depending on your strength of character, you'll either end up being in conflict with their religious hierarchy, or you'll compromise your loyalty to Jesus. Consider Samson.

 

[Tony B]

Christians will always gather together for worship, where two or more or gathered, there too will be Jesus. My wife and myself are all that we need to form a church.

To form a fellowship, yes. However, I'm sure you'll agree too, that even if you are isolated, say by yourself on an island, you are still a member of the Christian Church if your spirit has been brought to life by God. Paul called that church, the church of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Isn't this a contradiction to what your are now contemplating doing.

Depending on your strength of character, you'll either end up being in conflict with their religious hierarchy, or you'll compromise your loyalty to Jesus. Consider Samson.

No not really - looking ahead there may very well be a non-denominational Christian Community form if the inner city work takes off. The authority of such a community would be seperate from the church.
I think also you underestimate the flexibility of the church and their tolerance for different forms of Christian ministry. Also you make assumptions about me personally without knowledge of the preparation I have for the next move and what has gone before. It has been a 40 year preparation for what is to come. As I have said - watch this space. it is not about me - it is all about Him.

 

[Norman70]

To form a fellowship, yes. However, I'm sure you'll agree too, that even if you are isolated, say by yourself on an island, you are still a member of the Christian Church if your spirit has been brought to life by God. Paul called that church, the church of God.

This thread is about the liturgical Church, and again I use an upper case "C" because I do not think there is any liturgy associated with the universal church of God, as I learnt to understand the meaning of this phrase from the SDA Quarterly entitled "Oneness in Christ", which to me is identical with my understanding of my relationship with Jesus, developing now through my interests in the tenets of Christian Anarchism. This would be the church to which Paul is also referring. I think we need to look at the etymology of the word "church", and of course fellowship has to be part of the church experience.
However, being alone, which does not have to be on a deserted island, is part of the human experience, it is not a church experience, but nevertheless is a deep relationship with God. I experience this every minute of the day.

 

[dzheremi]

I am all good with this, having seen Him move dramatically when the church got it wrong for the sake of the folks under their charge.

Sure. In Orthodox Christianity, no person or leader is infallible but Christ.

 

[Junia]

Less than 1 a year...

am still impressed! I need.to.start.writing again

 

[Tony B]

No not really - looking ahead there may very well be a non-denominational Christian Community form if the inner city work takes off. The authority of such a community would be seperate from the church.
I think also you underestimate the flexibility of the church and their tolerance for different forms of Christian ministry. Also you make assumptions about me personally without knowledge of the preparation I have for the next move and what has gone before. It has been a 40 year preparation for what is to come. As I have said - watch this space. it is not about me - it is all about Him.

Just putting an 'alternative look' out there for you. I can't see Jesus being interested in any discussion involving denominational and non-denominational liturgy. Just my 2cs worth.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Christians will always gather together for worship, where two or more or gathered, there too will be Jesus. My wife and myself are all that we need to form a church.

And who is there to preach the word and administer the Sacraments to you and your wife?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

Just putting an 'alternative look' out there for you. I can't see Jesus being interested in any discussion involving denominational and non-denominational liturgy. Just my 2cs worth.

There is no such thing as 'non-denominational liturgy' so I guess you are right.

I spoke of the possibility of non-denominational community as a seperate entity from the institutional church.

 

[Tony B]

There is no such thing as 'non-denominational liturgy' so I guess you are right.

I spoke of the possibility of non-denominational community as a seperate entity from the institutional church.

I won't be engaging with you any further.

 

[Norman70]

And who is there to preach the word and administer the Sacraments to you and your wife?

We are in our old age, we have spent a lifetime listening to preachers (mostly a waste of time), but we have our Bibles (a variety of them) and the Internet has now replaced our study readings of the many Christian apologists. We no longer need a preacher.
Concerning the Sacraments, we can do this ourselves, sometimes a friend (who is a minister but we do not attend his Church) visits us, and we pray every mealtime, when bread and wine can be taken anytime. Our connection with God through Jesus is a spiritual one, we do not need (anymore) human interventions.