Liturgical Christianity

[Carl Emerson]

Hi folks.

I am keen to pick you brains on a quandary I have.

I have had a vital walk with Jesus for the last 45 years.

I have attended a wide range of churches but recently been focussed on home based fellowship.

However, all of a sudden, I was woken from sleep a 2am with a surge of His presence through me accompanied by a deep conviction to expect a return to 'normal' church life and that there was an opportunity for ministry there. This came with a deep healing of rejection so profound that it took about three days for my mind to catch up with the change in my heart.

The last church I attended was disastrous and our whole family had to leave.

So my wife and I began to explore possibilities for fellowship.

Our first port of call was the Anglican church.

I appreciate how carefully the tradition has preserved the fundamental foundations of the faith and presents these in a liturgical format quite beautifully.

However attending a liturgical service was like visiting Mars. All the pomp and ceremony seemed to be devoid of the precious life in Jesus I have walked in for years.

Gentlemen assuming a priestly role that I have comfortably enjoyed for decades.

Knowing that these same men would dismiss for example precious and fruitful times I have has breaking bread with friends - given that in their eyes I am not 'ordained'.

On the positive side I get the impression that they are pretty embracing of whatever christian service one might assume to bring among them as long as their exclusive right to be elite is not challenged.

Now don't misunderstand me - I am open to what ever He wants and know that there is a Carl shaped space for me wherever He leads. There is some lovely and warm folks there and with my background in inner city ministry the fit may be made in heaven.

So the question is - are their folks out there that have been required to make this transition and what helpful advice would you give???

 

[HTacianas]

Hi folks.

I am keen to pick you brains on a quandary I have.

I have had a vital walk with Jesus for the last 45 years.

I have attended a wide range of churches but recently been focussed on home based fellowship.

However, all of a sudden, I was woken from sleep a 2am with a surge of His presence through me accompanied by a deep conviction to expect a return to 'normal' church life and that there was an opportunity for ministry there. This came with a deep healing of rejection so profound that it took about three days for my mind to catch up with the change in my heart.

The last church I attended was disastrous and our whole family had to leave.

So my wife and I began to explore possibilities for fellowship.

Our first port of call was the Anglican church.

I appreciate how carefully the tradition has preserved the fundamental foundations of the faith and presents these in a liturgical format quite beautifully.

However attending a liturgical service was like visiting Mars. All the pomp and ceremony seemed to be devoid of the precious life in Jesus I have walked in for years.

Gentlemen assuming a priestly role that I have comfortably enjoyed for decades.

Knowing that these same men would dismiss for example precious and fruitful times I have has breaking bread with friends - given that in their eyes I am not 'ordained'.

On the positive side I get the impression that they are pretty embracing of whatever christian service one might assume to bring among them as long as their exclusive right to be elite is not challenged.

Now don't misunderstand me - I am open to what ever He wants and know that there is a Carl shaped space for me wherever He leads. There is some lovely and warm folks there and with my background in inner city ministry the fit may be made in heaven.

So the question is - are their folks out there that have been required to make this transition and what helpful advice would you give???

I have been through that transition myself, and I can give you a piece of advice and ask you sincerely to not take it personally. First of all, stop what you are doing. You are looking for your place in the Church, but not the place the Church has in you.

The "pomp" you're speaking is not pomp at all. It is two thousand years of Christian tradition. That tradition Paul spoke of when he said "hold fast to the traditions you have been taught". The Liturgy has been handed down since, and comes from a time when Christianity was new. It is based on the ancient temple ceremony and is the pattern the Revelation follows.

Attend the Liturgy and participate in it as if you are there to worship God, and to worship God in the prescribed manner. That "exclusive right to be elite" as you put it exists for a reason:

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

We don't choose our place in the Church.

 

[Endeavourer]

Perhaps your fit is in a church that is more of a mission field or plant than in an established church.

Not that you are doing this, but I wouldn't force yourself into the first pigeon hole you find. I'd continue to seek for a place where you feel peace.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have been through that transition myself, and I can give you a piece of advice and ask you sincerely to not take it personally. First of all, stop what you are doing. You are looking for your place in the Church, but not the place the Church has in you.

The "pomp" you're speaking is not pomp at all. It is two thousand years of Christian tradition. That tradition Paul spoke of when he said "hold fast to the traditions you have been taught". The Liturgy has been handed down since, and comes from a time when Christianity was new. It is based on the ancient temple ceremony and is the pattern the Revelation follows.

Attend the Liturgy and participate in it as if you are there to worship God, and to worship God in the prescribed manner. That "exclusive right to be elite" as you put it exists for a reason:

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

We don't choose our place in the Church.

I get the message (smile) sit down and shut up.

Know your place...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Perhaps your fit is in a church that is more of a mission field or plant than in an established church.

Not that you are doing this, but I wouldn't force yourself into the first pigeon hole you find. I'd continue to seek for a place where you feel peace.

Yes this is a consideration but it so happens my wife is a confirmed anglican and my son is training to be an anglican priest, so we thought to check this out first.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

We don't choose our place in the Church.

So if I am comfortable in two of these roles but the present structure doesn't cater for this calling - what then ??

 

[HTacianas]

So if I am comfortable in two of these roles but the present structure doesn't cater for this calling - what then ??

By way of example, I can relate to a lot of the people who post here, even though I don't think very much of what they have to say. I was once like them. There isn't much I read here that I haven't actually said myself at some time or another. Looking back on it I was childish. Thought I knew everything but every day I learned something new. Reached a point one day when I decided I was tired of being my own pope.

It is not up to me to decide where you should be or what you should be doing. But I recommend strongly that you try being a layman for a while and find out where it leads. It's just a friendly piece of advice.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The "pomp" you're speaking is not pomp at all. It is two thousand years of Christian tradition.

So when Paul was visiting the churches, he was wearing a freshly pressed church uniform ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

By way of example, I can relate to a lot of the people who post here, even though I don't think very much of what they have to say. I was once like them. There isn't much I read here that I haven't actually said myself at some time or another. Looking back on it I was childish. Thought I knew everything but every day I learned something new. Reached a point one day when I decided I was tired of being my own pope.

It is not up to me to decide where you should be or what you should be doing. But I recommend strongly that you try being a layman for a while and find out where it leads. It's just a friendly piece of advice.

Yes, that is my approach, but I am well aware that the church is not perfect, and no one is called into bondage.

Also your journey may not be like mine - you can read my testimony here...

Jesus's Ministry

He knows my heart and I have a job to do...

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Liturgy has been handed down since, and comes from a time when Christianity was new. It is based on the ancient temple ceremony and is the pattern the Revelation follows.

So you wouldn't be a fan of Prof. Harold Turner who speaks of the church adopting old covenant traditions instead of operating as a New Covenant church?

From Temple to Meeting House by Harold W. Turner | Waterstones

 

[HTacianas]

So when Paul was visiting the churches, he was wearing a freshly pressed church uniform ?

Church "uniforms" came later and I fully support them. "Vestments" they're called. They are symbolic of Christ's conquering of the Roman Empire. There was a time when the Church met in secret for fear of persecution. After Christianity was legalized and bishops became prominent, those bishops assumed positions that rivaled the civil authorities. The civil authorities dressed in garb that would be unheard of today. Those priestly vestments mimicked that garb and became symbolic of the bishop's authority. The bishop dressed as royalty, just as a governor or a prelate. The bishop assumed nearly the same power. It is all "biblical":

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

Heb 13:7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.

In modern times, at least in the Western world, government officials wear suits and ties. Protestant preachers dress in suits and ties, just like the civil authorities.

 

[HTacianas]

So you wouldn't be a fan of Prof. Harold Turner who speaks of the church adopting old covenant traditions instead of operating as a New Covenant church?

The "old covenant traditions" of the Church have been since the beginning. I mentioned the Revelation earlier, and by way of example, off the top of my head, it speaks of "silence in heaven for the space of half an hour". That point is the half hour it took the high priest to enter into the sanctuary with the blood of the sacrifice. That temple liturgy exists in the Revelation. And as Paul said:

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?

Notice he doesn't tell the Corinthians, "I want you to start blessing a cup". He's not giving them instructions, he's merely mentioning what they are already doing. So at some point, somewhere, someone was blessing a cup for some reason. That blessing of the cup still exists in the Liturgy.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The bishop dressed as royalty, just as a governor or a prelate. The bishop assumed nearly the same power. It is all "biblical":

I think you are drawing a long bow to suggest such custom is biblical.

You said yourself that such developments occurred well after Pauline days and were an alignment with Roman custom.

Notice he doesn't tell the Corinthians, "I want you to start blessing a cup". He's not giving them instructions, he's merely mentioning what they are already doing. So at some point, somewhere, someone was blessing a cup for some reason. That blessing of the cup still exists in the Liturgy.

Yes, from house to house with a shared meal - beautiful - and a far cry from the extreme formality being presented today.

However, I am more concerned to get others comments on this transition, I just feel deeply sad that the family life of the church community has been replaced by a tight predicable performance.

I will however stay quiet as advised.

 

[seeking.IAM]

So when Paul was visiting the churches, he was wearing a freshly pressed church uniform ?

I joined an Anglo-Catholic parish with high churchmanship after 50 years in another mainline protestant denomination. Over my time in the former denomination, I witnessed creeping informality and distancing from liturgy. Toward the end, our services were led by a pastor who looked like he could have come in from working in the garden. It seemed disrespectful to me. For that reason alone, I much prefer vested clergy regardless of the historical traditions underlying vestments. I think coming together to worship God should not be approached casually.

 

[Greg J.]

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. (Isaiah 55:12, 1984 NIV)

Even the trees clap their hands in their rejoicing of the Lord. If trees can honor the Lord, you can do the same in any context. It sounds like the Lord is pushing you in a direction for your and your family's own good as well as for ministry opportunities. Perhaps the Lord wants to grant you more humility.

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. (Romans 13:1-2, 1984 NIV)

You do not have to, and perhaps should not, conform your heart to their hearts. Continue to be who you really are. It is their responsibility to accept you as you are (but not necessarily what you may want to do). But you can imitate their form as a form of loving and obeying the Lord. Practice exercising your spiritual gift of acceptance. Most of them have less years in Christ than you.

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. (Romans 14:1, 1984 NIV)

Rejoice that the Lord is expanding your mind in your ability to accept others and their ways! Imagine that you are entering the mission field in a strange foreign country. It isn't your goal to make them like you, but rather to allow them to experience the Lord's loving nature.

 

[Albion]

I get the message (smile) sit down and shut up.

Know your place...

Hmmm. When I read that post, Carl, I got the exact opposite message out of it.

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

you have a powerful testimony Brother!

after i received healing from terminal cancer years ago, i began to look for a local church to attend. i started with a major denomination, but found that many of their by-laws were not in line with scripture, and the complete lack of miracles there was a confirmation to me that 'the Word of God was made of none effect through their traditions'. so i attended an independent church that was actively seeking the power of God to heal, deliver, prosper - but their by-laws and traditions were equally effective in making the word of God of no effect there. as i sought God about this, i believe He instructed me to simply follow his leading each day rather than to seek a church to attend - and if He wanted me to attend a church, He would lead me there - but not for what i could get from that church, but to be a vessel that He could minister through to those who attended it. 'church' as the NT describes it had no by-laws beyond the scriptures; nor were there elaborate buildings, no requirement to swear an oath of loyalty to a particular organization or group of elders, and no lack of miracles confirming the power of God's Word. for me, church is what we are to take to the world, not a place we are to take the world to; this forum is church because we are here expecting the power of God to become evident; the grocery store is a church when God's word is spoken in faith - church is where God's Word is shared and discussed by believers - be careful to not limit what God can do in your life by taking on traditions or anything else in addition to His Word

 

[dqhall]

Hi folks.

I am keen to pick you brains on a quandary I have.

I have had a vital walk with Jesus for the last 45 years.

I have attended a wide range of churches but recently been focussed on home based fellowship.

However, all of a sudden, I was woken from sleep a 2am with a surge of His presence through me accompanied by a deep conviction to expect a return to 'normal' church life and that there was an opportunity for ministry there. This came with a deep healing of rejection so profound that it took about three days for my mind to catch up with the change in my heart.

The last church I attended was disastrous and our whole family had to leave.

So my wife and I began to explore possibilities for fellowship.

Our first port of call was the Anglican church.

I appreciate how carefully the tradition has preserved the fundamental foundations of the faith and presents these in a liturgical format quite beautifully.

However attending a liturgical service was like visiting Mars. All the pomp and ceremony seemed to be devoid of the precious life in Jesus I have walked in for years.

Gentlemen assuming a priestly role that I have comfortably enjoyed for decades.

Knowing that these same men would dismiss for example precious and fruitful times I have has breaking bread with friends - given that in their eyes I am not 'ordained'.

On the positive side I get the impression that they are pretty embracing of whatever christian service one might assume to bring among them as long as their exclusive right to be elite is not challenged.

Now don't misunderstand me - I am open to what ever He wants and know that there is a Carl shaped space for me wherever He leads. There is some lovely and warm folks there and with my background in inner city ministry the fit may be made in heaven.

So the question is - are their folks out there that have been required to make this transition and what helpful advice would you give???

If you check church websites, some of them have sermon and worship videos. That might give you some starting information. If you visit a number of them before you settle, if you settle into one, then you might find one you like. I sometimes visited non-denominational churches, Pentecostal and Assembly of God. Church fellowship might be a comfort. They may require financial support.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Wow...

Some excellent responses and definitely matters to pray about.

I really appreciate the kind wisdom being shown.

Thank you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

By way of example, I can relate to a lot of the people who post here, even though I don't think very much of what they have to say. I was once like them. There isn't much I read here that I haven't actually said myself at some time or another. Looking back on it I was childish. Thought I knew everything but every day I learned something new. Reached a point one day when I decided I was tired of being my own pope.

It is not up to me to decide where you should be or what you should be doing. But I recommend strongly that you try being a layman for a while and find out where it leads. It's just a friendly piece of advice.

Yes this is the approach I am taking...