Liturgical Christianity

[Carl Emerson]

When I put the behaviour of the early Christians as described in Acts, where they pooled their resources, to some SDA members they just laughed and said it would not work. Say no more. God bless.

I think this will happen when persecution comes.
The Jews in Israel know and practice a lot more community than the church in general because of their history of persecution.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't know what "an obedience" is. What do you mean?

In Eastern Orthodox monasteries, I have seen the term used to refer to the day-to-day operational activities engaged in by the monks to ensure the survival and proper functioning of the monasteries. A monk could have an obedience working in the kitchen, or the gift shop, or in one of the monastic industries (which vary from monastery to monastery but which could include icon writing, the manufacture of inexpensive coffins for Orthodox burials and so on). The Coptic Orthodox monastery I’ve visited had a collection of animals they raised for sale, including rabbits, chickens, and ostriches; I have heard they sold that business to a Coptic farmer, but that would also be an obedience.

 

[The Liturgist]

So I'm coming to this late, and my comments may or may not be helpful. But as someone who first came to church as an adult, and who struggled to understand and participate in the liturgy, perhaps I can at least try.



I can relate to this. My analogy would be that it is like learning to speak another language. When you first hear an unfamiliar language, it can seem like nonsense; meaningless babble and with no edifying content. But once you have learned the language (which is about more than theoretical knowledge but familiarity with its patterns of expression and the formation of new cognitive connections for you) those sounds resolve themselves into something which can convey love, joy and peace intensely and deeply.

I found learning the liturgy to be like this. At first I found it cold, distant and alienating; but over time I had enough immersion in it/experience of it for it to be deeply nourishing and lifegiving.

But that took years. It definitely didn't happen in one visit. Give it time and let it grow in you.



I would say don't make assumptions about what their own attitudes would be. For myself, I would never dismiss experiences others had elsewhere. Of course you wouldn't be able to assume that role in the church you're looking to move into, but that doesn't detract from how God has been with you in the past.

We are made for community, and for me, at least, the benefits of community well repay the effort it takes to learn to be part of one.

That’s a beautiful post, and I love the idea of the liturgy as life-giving, which of course it is, fundamentally, but you put it very succinctly.

 

[SANTOSO]

Carl, I believe it would be delightful to have the Holy Spirit guide. Don’t worry. Just trust God the Spirit will level the grounds.

Pray for wisdom that His words can bring you enlightenment on how you can ministers after long absence from normal church activities and home fellowship.

I understand your experience of rejection. Did not the Lord get rejected and He was crucified?

What do the Lord tells us to do ?

Pray for those who prosecuted us ! How much in this day and age we need to release forgiveness to others ! With God’s strength, all things are possible.

Pray for your wife and children that the Lord is working in them and that their hearts will eventually prepare for the work of service that the Lord already prepare for them to do.

Ask the Lord what the work of service that the Lord wants for them and that may not be the same like yours.

In regard to liturgical service, it is said to represent a communal response to and participation in the sacred through activity reflecting praise, thanksgiving, remembrance, supplication or repentance.

I understand that some may have enriching and nourishing experience of love, joy and peace of God. While others find it predictive performance and may not meet their spiritual needs.

Likewise in non liturgical service setting — praise and worship service,

some may find it enriching with the presence of God full of love, joy and peace. While others may find unpredictable performance and may not meet their spiritual needs.

But this is what we have heard :
and there are VARIETIES of Service, but the same Lord; -1 Corinthians 12:5

and there are VARITIES of Activities , but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. -1 Corinthians 12:6

So, don’t let varieties of service and activities cause a division !

What have we been instructed by apostle Paul ?
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be UNITED in the same MIND and the same JUDGMENT. -1 Corinthians 1:10

Why this quarreling among us ? Do you know that quarreling hinders your prayer to be heard ?

Why hate our brothers or sisters in Christ in regard to variety of services and activities and live in darkness? Have some not heard that the Lord calls us to love one another ?

What is liturgical service ? Is it not to submit to Christ’s words ? If not submit to Christ’s words, we are not obliged to do !

What is praise and worship service ? Are we not called to worship in spirit and truth? If it is not in the right spirit and truth, we are not obliged to follow !

For we have the same Lord and God who calls to be conformed to the image of His Son.

It is right to submit to His words through practice like liturgical practice.

It is right for us to honor God by praising and worshiping Him in spirit and truth through spiritual songs, hymns and melodies.

But have we ?:
PUT ON then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, -Colossians 3:12

BEARING WITH one another and, if one has a complaint against another, FORGIVING each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. -Colossians 3:13

Let us not have the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things that God has prepared for those who love Christ.

Carl, are you concerned by being ‘not ordained’? Is that not the challenge that apostle Paul had ?

Are not many concerned whether he is apostle, called by the will of God and set apart for the gospel of Jesus Christ ?

What did apostle Paul have said ?:

Paul, an apostle'not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead' -Galatians 1:1

Imitate apostle Paul in his faith that you are ordained not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead !

In regard to what you called us as ‘elite’, just remember the Lord’s caution :

And he cautioned them, saying, "Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod." -Mark 8:15

In this transition, I would advice that you look carefully how you walk, and continuously filled with the Holy Spirit every moment and submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl, I believe it would be delightful to have the Holy Spirit guide. Don’t worry. Just trust God the Spirit will level the grounds.

Pray for wisdom that His words can bring you enlightenment on how you can ministers after long absence from normal church activities and home fellowship.

I understand your experience of rejection. Did not the Lord get rejected and He was crucified?

What do the Lord tells us to do ?

Pray for those who prosecuted us ! How much in this day and age we need to release forgiveness to others ! With God’s strength, all things are possible.

Pray for your wife and children that the Lord is working in them and that their hearts will eventually prepare for the work of service that the Lord already prepare for them to do.

Ask the Lord what the work of service that the Lord wants for them and that may not be the same like yours.

In regard to liturgical service, it is said to represent a communal response to and participation in the sacred through activity reflecting praise, thanksgiving, remembrance, supplication or repentance.

I understand that some may have enriching and nourishing experience of love, joy and peace of God. While others find it predictive performance and may not meet their spiritual needs.

Likewise in non liturgical service setting — praise and worship service,

some may find it enriching with the presence of God full of love, joy and peace. While others may find unpredictable performance and may not meet their spiritual needs.

But this is what we have heard :
and there are VARIETIES of Service, but the same Lord; -1 Corinthians 12:5

and there are VARITIES of Activities , but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. -1 Corinthians 12:6

So, don’t let varieties of service and activities cause a division !

What have we been instructed by apostle Paul ?
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be UNITED in the same MIND and the same JUDGMENT. -1 Corinthians 1:10

Why this quarreling among us ? Do you know that quarreling hinders your prayer to be heard ?

Why hate our brothers or sisters in Christ in regard to variety of services and activities and live in darkness? Have some not heard that the Lord calls us to love one another ?

What is liturgical service ? Is it not to submit to Christ’s words ? If not submit to Christ’s words, we are not obliged to do !

What is praise and worship service ? Are we not called to worship in spirit and truth? If it is not in the right spirit and truth, we are not obliged to follow !

For we have the same Lord and God who calls to be conformed to the image of His Son.

It is right to submit to His words through practice like liturgical practice.

It is right for us to honor God by praising and worshiping Him in spirit and truth through spiritual songs, hymns and melodies.

But have we ?:
PUT ON then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, -Colossians 3:12

BEARING WITH one another and, if one has a complaint against another, FORGIVING each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. -Colossians 3:13

Let us not have the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things that God has prepared for those who love Christ.

Carl, are you concerned by being ‘not ordained’? Is that not the challenge that apostle Paul had ?

Are not many concerned whether he is apostle, called by the will of God and set apart for the gospel of Jesus Christ ?

What did apostle Paul have said ?:

Paul, an apostle'not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead' -Galatians 1:1

Imitate apostle Paul in his faith that you are ordained not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead !

In regard to what you called us as ‘elite’, just remember the Lord’s caution :

And he cautioned them, saying, "Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod." -Mark 8:15

In this transition, I would advice that you look carefully how you walk, and continuously filled with the Holy Spirit every moment and submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

This was a very considered reply and I appreciate it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Seven months has passed so I owe you all an update.

First off I am impressed by the quality of faith in the brothers and sisters I am getting to know a little.

My prophetic disposition is being embraced and I attend the pre-service prayer meeting.

Folks that are struggling have been drawn to my wife and I for prayer.

I will likely be doing readings and prayer during the service in due time.

Ironically more freedom to exercise our calling to ministry within the sphere of such a structured church.

Was sitting and listening to the sermon and suddenly I was standing in the church watching a turbulent river flowing across the church sweeping away some structures clearly indicating revival. I was in tears.

Steady as she goes, but plenty of opportunity and encouragement.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Ironically more freedom to exercise our calling to ministry within the sphere of such a structured church.

Yeah I noticed that kind of thing decades ago, when I was with the local Episcopals of my hometown where I was born and grew up. They were much more encouraging to me when it came to ministry etc. which at that time was teaching adult Sunday school. It was also just freer. It was also interesting comparing that too some of the previous charismatics etc. that would have looked down on Episcopals even though many of the leadership were charismatic because they didnot like the Catholic look of them the church etc. and would read all kinds of negative stuff into it. But it really was like a case of psychological projection because it was those people who really were control freaks, paranoid etc. So while the Episcopals might be an "old wine skin" based on superficial appearance etc. in reality they really were the old wine skin because of their actual mind set that was very rigid etc.

Yeah there was a lot of paradoxes like that back in the old days of the 90s.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Ironically more freedom to exercise our calling to ministry within the sphere of such a structured church.

Structure is not the enemy. Structure actually allows. or can allow, freedoms for the Spirit to move.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, that is what I am finding, and it is pretty refreshing.

Reminds me of the verse "Without a vision the people perish...

The Hebrew for vision means fence.

Thus, structure provides boundaries within which we are safe and free to operate our function in Him.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, that is what I am finding, and it is pretty refreshing.

Reminds me of the verse "Without a vision the people perish...

The Hebrew for vision means fence.

Thus, structure provides boundaries within which we are safe and free to operate our function in Him.

Wow that is an important distinction, it reminds me of a phone conversation with my best friend yesterday where he was repeating some a conversation from a Messianic rabbi about how the subtleties of things are lost in English translations.

like when Moses turned his snake into a staff, at least on some occasions like when it ate the serpent/staves of the Egyptian magicians it was a Leviathian and not just a serpent (nachash).


But that kind of insight does remind me of the kinds of debates I had years ago on this Postmodern Christian web site where all kinds of people were having lots of big ideas of how to Christianity different, and a lot of it was about embracing "Christian Anarchy" and disestablishment ideas e.g. "lets get rid of all traditional churches and replace them with house churches etc.". I had to remind them for everything verse where Jesus or God criticizes leadership etc. you will find probably 4 more where he creates order, structure, specific leadership, in Creation, the Church etc.