Limited Atonement and it's faults

[Clare73]

Does your interpretation of that verse encompass the “whole world”? No it doesn’t it only encompasses a portion of the world. And you say I have bad hermeneutics when my interpretation coincides with the verse and tour’s does not.

The "whole world," in the context of Judaism, means not limited to Jews but also including Gentiles.

 

[zoidar]

Christ's sacrifice is the payment for my sin/trespasses which cancels my debt (forgiveness = cancellation of debt).

If I'm already forgiven before I come to faith, what is that happens to me when I come to faith?

 

[zoidar]

The "whole world," in the context of Judaism, means not limited to Jews but also including Gentiles.

Even if that is true, it still can include everyone among those groups.

 

[Clare73]

If I'm already forgiven before I come to faith, what is that happens to me when I come to faith?

The forgiveness is applied to you by faith. . .as the cleaning blood was applied to the altar and the Ark by hyssop.

The blood was cleansing, but it had to be applied, not just shed.
Atonement is forgiveness, but it has to be applied, not just purchased.

Until it is applied, I am still in the sin and condemnation in which I was born (Ro 5:18), still by nature (with which I am born) an object of wrath (Eph 2:3).

 

[zoidar]

The forgiveness is applied to you by faith. .

I do agree with that statement. Not sure if you believe we are forgiven or not before the atonement is applied.

.as the cleaning blood was applied to the altar and the Ark by hyssop.

The blood was cleansing, but it had to be applied, not just shed.
Atonement is forgiveness, but it has to be applied, not just purchased.

Not sure what you mean. How is the atonement forgiveness?

Until it is applied, I am still in the sin and condemnation in which I was born (Ro 5:18), still by nature (with which I am born) an object of wrath (Eph 2:3).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

A ransom is a payment, and Jesus said he came to give his life as a ransom for many (Mt 20:28).

I dare to say that you would need to speculate if you wanted to say to whom this ransom was paid.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The "whole world," in the context of Judaism, means not limited to Jews but also including Gentiles.

Where do you get that idea from?

 

[Clare73]

I dare to say that you would need to speculate if you wanted to say to whom this ransom was paid.

"Ransom" is Jesus' word. . .I don't have to defend it. . .ask him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

"Ransom" is Jesus' word. . .I don't have to defend it. . .ask him.

How odd.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The "whole world," in the context of Judaism, means not limited to Jews but also including Gentiles.

Here John uses the term “whole world” again except this time it is used in contrast to believers.

“We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Every believer was at one point included in this statement until they came to Christ.

He uses the term again in Revelation 12:9

“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And again this once referred to everyone in the entire world.

 

[Clare73]

How odd.

Odd. . .that it is Jesus' word. . .or that It's not my job to defend its truth?

What I find odd is challenging the word of Jesus.

My job is to believe it.

 

[Clare73]

Here John uses the term “whole world” again except this time it is used in contrast to believers.

“We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Every believer was at one point included in this statement until they came to Christ.

He uses the term again in Revelation 12:9

“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And again this once referred to everyone in the entire world.

Agreed. . .it is used both ways.

 

[zoidar]

The forgiveness is applied to you by faith. . .as the cleaning blood was applied to the altar and the Ark by hyssop.

The blood was cleansing, but it had to be applied, not just shed.
Atonement is forgiveness, but it has to be applied, not just purchased.

Until it is applied, I am still in the sin and condemnation in which I was born (Ro 5:18), still by nature (with which I am born) an object of wrath (Eph 2:3).

I guess what you are saying is that Christ paid the price for our forgiveness. In that case we are not forgiven before faith, though the price for our forgiveness is paid through the atonement, so we can receive forgiveness. That is basically what I believe. The difference is you believe the price for forgiveness was paid for the elect, where I believe Jesus paid the price for forgiveness for man generally, so whoever can receive forgiveness.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does your interpretation of that verse encompass the “whole world”? No it doesn’t it only encompasses a portion of the world. And you say I have bad hermeneutics when my interpretation coincides with the verse and tour’s does not.

No. It's because you assume first reading is the correct one, since that reading coincides with your narrative. I haven't yet decided which one it is, because there are 3 or 4 different ways to read that, but to say that he intended to save absolutely everyone, is frankly ludicrous.

 

[Clare73]

I guess what you are saying is that Christ paid the price for our forgiveness. In that case we are not forgiven before faith, though the price for our forgiveness is paid through the atonement, so we can receive forgiveness. That is basically what I believe. The difference is you believe the price for forgiveness was paid for the elect, where I believe Jesus paid the price for forgiveness for man generally, so whoever can receive forgiveness.

It's not a hill I will die on.

It flows simply from what all Scripture reveals about the nature, completeness and effectiveness of God, not to mention election and predestination.

 

[zoidar]

No. It's because you assume first reading is the correct one, since that reading coincides with your narrative. I haven't yet decided which one it is, because there are 3 or 4 different ways to read that, but to say that he intended to save absolutely everyone, is frankly ludicrous.

I don't think any Christian believes Jesus intended to save everyone (except universialists). Had to say that. Carry on!

 

[Mark Quayle]

How many deaths did Jesus die?

Obviously, one. The one that was necessary. That is not a quantitative death —that much is true. But now your argument invokes quantity to his death. Enough for absolutely everyone. It's a lousy argument. You are sloughing from "wages of sin is death" to "Christ's death paid the wages for everyone".

His death paid the sin of those whom God had chosen and created for that purpose. No others.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't think any Christian believes Jesus intended to save everyone (except universialists). Had to say that. Carry on!

Yet, that is what @BNR32FAN 's construction logically implies.

 

[zoidar]

It's not a hill I will die on.

For me the question of the atonement is the hill to die on. The atonement being universal is so important to me, since it says everything about God's character. But concerning the other theoreticals about the atonement, are not something I would die for.

It flows simply from what all Scripture reveals about the nature, completeness and effectiveness of God, not to mention election and predestination.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Maybe your view is more particular but less personal? From my view God's love is particular and personal in that He saves the person who humbles himself and repents. The view of the Reformers I think it is less personal, since God saves the person for some reason, we don't know why, because of some mysterious choice that has nothing to do with the person.

I don't know how much more personal it can get, than to become the Bride of Christ, the very Body of Christ. It is to that end that the Elect were created.