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Lies about the Sabbath.

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SAAN

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But you have repeatedly claimed that anyone saying the Ten Commandments have been "nailed to the cross" equals "lawlessness." My argument has always been that the entire Mosaic Law was "nailed to the Cross," including the Ten Commandments. But at the same time, I have repeatedly pointed out to you that the Noahide Commandments prohibited "fornication, theft, lying and murder" for several hundred years before Moses received the law on Sinai. And after the cross abolished the Mosaic Law, the Epistles are riddled with condemnation of "fornication, theft, lying and murder." Yet you accuse me of advocating "lawlessness." And in Acts 15, it is clear the Council of Jerusalem reaffirmed the Noahide Commandments.

So can you please defend what Ellen White meant when she said that when Christians say the Ten Commandments were abolished, they are doing so because they are in favor of "fornication, theft, murder and lying?" And lawlessness?

What I have said is the 10C's were not nailed to the cross. God would not nail commands he wrote with his own fingers to the cross. What I have said in Acts 15, is you do what 99% of Chrisitanity does by stopping at verse 20 and saying thats all they had to do (4 BASIC COMMANDS), yet skip verse 21 in which it says they will learn everything else they need to learn as they go along each Sabbath when they go to the synagogs. Those 4 things in Act 15 were just general starting guidelines for them, NOT.....these are the only 4 things gentiles need to adhere to only. And even with those 4 commands, many Christians eat medium rare meats, so they cant even keep that command of not eating food with blood in it.

Why do you keep quoting that lady to me, im not a SDA, I dont care about their false doctrine, and I dont agree with a majority of their teachings.
 
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LarryP2

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What I have said is the 10C's were not nailed to the cross. God would not nail commands he wrote with his own fingers to the cross. What I have said in Acts 15, is you do what 99% of Chrisitanity does by stopping at verse 20 and saying thats all they had to do (4 BASIC COMMANDS),

That is EXACTLY what the Apostles and ALL of the Early Christians did. And the first Century Fathers that heard it straight out of the mouths of the Apostles. You belong to a cult that disputes that history. You have made up your OWN history instead. But that is not Christianity. Christianity never has needed nor will ever need in the future your help on defining itself or explaining its own history. If you wish to participate in a non-Christian cult, then by all means, do so. But do not pretend that what you are doing is consistent with Christianity or its history. I know the history of Christianity: What you are constantly saying on this website has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

I have read every single First and Second Christian writer in the First and Second Century, and not ONE of them mentions the Ten Commandments.

Apparently, they were ALL following what Paul told them to do.



yet skip verse 21 in which it says they will learn everything else they need to learn as they go along each Sabbath when they go to the synagogs.

That is absolutely false and deceitful. I have written a lengthy three-part analysis of that verse. When it talks about the "Law of Moses being preached in the Synogogue" I actually have spelled out in detail what that law actually WAS. The Acts 15 letter was written to the Gentiles at Antioch. The "Law of Moses" that was "preached in the Synagogue" prohibited Gentile Sabbath Keeping and following the Mosaic Law with the Death Penalty as punishment if they disobeyed. The "Mosaic Law" that was "preached in the Synagogue" specifically covered the Gentiles under the Noahide Commandments. Here is the actual "Law of Moses" that covered the Gentiels living in Jewish lands:

"8.1 Moses our Teacher did not bequeath the Torah and the Commandments to anyone but to Israel, as it says, “the Heritage of the Congregation of Jacob” (Deut. 33:4), and to anyone from the other nations who wishes to convert, as it says, “as you, as a convert” (Numbers 15:15). However, no one who does not want to convert is forced to accept the Torah and the Commandments."

"8.13 Moses our Teacher was commanded by the Almighty to compel the world to accept the Commandments of the Sons of Noah ("the Noahide" laws). Anyone who fails to accept them is executed. Anyone who does accept them upon himself is called a Convert Who May Reside Anywhere. He must accept them in front of three wise and learned Jews. However, anyone who agrees to be circumcised and twelve months have elapsed and he was not as yet circumcised is no different than any other member of the nations of the world."

"8.14 Anyone who accepts upon himself and carefully observes the Seven Commandments is of the Righteous of the Nations of the World and has a portion in the World to Come. This is as long as he accepts and performs them because (he truly believes that) it was the Holy One, Blessed Be He, Who commanded them in the Torah, and that is was through Moses our Teacher we were informed that the Sons of Noah had already been commanded to observe them. But if he observes them because he convinced himself logically, then he is not considered a Resident Convert and is not of the Righteous of the Nations of the World, but merely one of their wise."

"9.1 Adam, the first man, was commanded with six commandments: 1) idolatry, 2) “blessing” (euphemistically) the Name (of G-d), 3) murder, 4) illicit sexual relations, 5) thievery and, 6) establishing a system of justice."

"9.2 Even though all of these have been received as a Tradition from Moses our Teacher and we can understand the rationale for them, nevertheless, from (verses in) the Torah (we learn that) it was these that they were commanded. A seventh commandment forbidding the eating of a limb torn from a live animal was added for Noah, as it says, “Even flesh, life is in the blood, do not eat of it” (Genesis 9:4)."

"9.3 These commandments were universally applicable - until Abraham. With Abraham, circumcision was also commanded and he prayed Shacharis (the Morning Prayer). Isaac separated out a tithe and added another prayer in the afternoon and, with Jacob, the prohibition against eating the sciatic nerve was
added, as was the Maariv (Evening) Prayer. In Egypt, Amram was commanded with other precepts and, with Moses our Teacher, the Torah was completed."

"10.4 We ignore the request of a non-Jew who had converted and was circumcised and immersed, and now wishes to turn away from G-d and change his status to Resident Convert as he was before. Rather, he is to conduct himself like any other Jew, or he will be executed. A child can annul his conversion when he grows up if he had been immersed by the Court when he was a minor. He may only become a Resident Convert. However, if he didn’t annul his conversion at that time, he cannot do so later, and he becomes a Righteous Convert."

"10.11 A non-Jew who busied himself with Torah is liable with his life. He must involve himself in their Seven Commandments only. Similarly, a non-Jew who “rested” as one would on Sabbath, even on a weekday, is liable with the death penalty. There is no reason to mention (that he is culpable) if he invented his own holiday."

"10.12 The principle here is that we do not permit them to make a new religion and create new commandments for themselves based on their own reasoning. They may only become Righteous Converts and accept upon themselves all the Commandments, or they must observe their own (Seven) Laws only, and not add or detract from them. If a non-Jew busied himself with Torah or made Sabbath or made up something new, we give him lashes and punish him and tell him that he is liable with the death penalty for doing this. But he is not executed."

http://halakhah.com/rst/kingsandwars.pdf


NO GENTILES KEPT THE SABBATH IN EITHER THE OLD OR NEW TESTAMENT. For you to insinuate that they did is just incredibly and blatantly dishonest.

Those 4 things in Act 15 were just general starting guidelines for them, NOT.....these are the only 4 things gentiles need to adhere to only. And even with those 4 commands, many Christians eat medium rare meats, so they cant even keep that command of not eating food with blood in it.

And Paul finished those "4 things" out with very specific rules for Christians to live by. You and Ellen White dishonestly pretend like Paul never wrote those things. But that is precisely why you belong to what is known as a "cult" and why she was branded as a "false prophet" and a cult leader.

PAUL NEVER COMPLETED THE DECREE OF JERUSALEM BY ADDING ON THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!
 
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Elder 111

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The things that you talk about cant be proven with scriptures. You should ashamed of yourself for using these deceptive tactics.
The fact is: your false claims are easily defeated by scriptures. Then you ignore our responses and make more wild claims. Your questions are creatively twisted.
If seeking and speaking the truth is being creatively twisted, then I am absolutely guilty.

HERE IS YOUR ANSWER
The first reason for the New Covenant is given in Jeremiah and repeated in Hebrews. The Children of Israel broke the Old Covenant by breaking the commandments within it. Rather than death for breaking the letter of the law given Moses, God promised to give a New covenant with a forgiveness of sin clause. Heb 8:12 Heb 8:9 Heb 8:8
So the problem was not the covenant but the fact that it was broken by one party-the Jews. So the fault was not in the law, but in breaking the law. As with any agreement between parties if one party fails to honor their part, the agreement becomes void. Good example, marriage. Is marriage no more because people break their vows? Is there no more marriage law? Is the problem with the law or the vow? There was always forgiveness otherwise no one from Adam to Christ can/would be saved. If they did not obtain forgiveness while they were alive they can not have it now. Dead men can't ask!

God said He would give a New one unlike the one given at Sinai. Heb 8:13
Scriptures proves that the Old one is the law given Moses at Sinai.
Scriptures proves a New one does not mean the Old written on your heart.
Scriptures say clearly what happens to the Old Covenant? Heb 8:7 Does the words "wax old", "decay" means written on your heart?
Please! Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Here is the difference.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,(Christ as High Priest not a man) by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Not a different or no law!
 
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Elder 111

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Let's drop the scripture sculpting of sentence fragments and isolated texts and look at what the actual surrounding verses say:

John 4:15-29
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 The woman *said to Him, “[a]Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw.” 16 He *said to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” 17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus *said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.” 19 The woman *said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is [c]spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus *said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

27 At this point His disciples came, and they were amazed that He had been speaking with a woman, yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why do You speak with her?” 28 So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and *said to the men, 29 “Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not [d]the Christ, is it?”

But is a contrasting conjunction. The situation was that the way of salvation was given to the Jews BUT the time will be have it.
One situation was that the Jews had the truth, the other is that God would bring that truth to all.
 
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LarryP2

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So the problem was not the covenant but the fact that it was broken by one party-the Jews. So the fault was not in the law, but in breaking the law.
No, actually the "problem" is that the law had served its purpose the second Jesus Christ stepped foot onto the planet earth, instantly making it archaic and obsolete. You cannot mix Grace and Law. Two distinct and separate covenants. The First Century Christians harshly denounced your attempted mixing of Law and Grace as the "Judaizing" and "Ebionite" heresies. Please don't try to convince us with your out-of-context-verses that what you represent is Christianity. I know my history. Mixing Law and Grace is NOT Christianity. I have studied it in depth. You are using the same texts that the Judaizers and Ebionites used them in PRECISELY the same way. Do you think I am impressed with the way that David Koresh followed your example of stringing together sentence fragments and half verses? Or the Jehovah's Witnesses doing the same thing? No. I am not impressed with them, and I am not impressed with you.

As with any agreement between parties if one party fails to honor their part, the agreement becomes void.

I am not sure where you learned your erroneous idea about law, but that is totally ridiculous!. NO contract is ever "void" simply because one party fails to honor their part! NEVER! That is known as a "Breach of Contract" which NEVER EVER "voids" the contract!



There was always forgiveness otherwise no one from Adam to Christ can/would be saved. If they did not obtain forgiveness while they were alive they can not have it now. Dead men can't ask!

Not anything like there was under the New Covenant! You really haven't studied the Temple ceremonies enough to tell the difference between that and Christ? Fascinating!


Please! Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Here is the difference.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,(Christ as High Priest not a man) by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Not a different or no law!

That portion of text is interpreted by Christianity to mean the exact OPPOSITE of what you and your cult claim it means. And yes, it DOES as a matter of fact, emphatically mean a "different or no [Old Testament] law"! Christianity is NOT a mixture of Law and Grace. That is a heresy that was denounced and renounced and excommunicated from the First Century of Christianity. Your scripture sculpting does NOTHING to change that reality.
 
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Elder 111

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All those belonging to the misunderstood advocacy group that promotes Stealing Killing, and murdering based on Ten Commandments' abolition, raise your hands and say "EYE!"

In fact, I would like the email address of Churches that teach that fornication, murder, theft and lying are now okay since the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect. Lately, I have fiercely resented my church, since it condemns fornication harshly, while at the same time I have been stifling my overwhelming unmet needs for it. And there are people I would really like to murder, but I just can't get past Paul's and the Noahide Law's condemnation of it, so I would appreciate help finding a Church that would permit it based on the lack of the Ten Commandments. I have people in my life that need killing. I want proof the abolition of the Ten Commandments simultaneously abolished the Noahide Laws, passages in the Epistles that strongly condemn murder, and the State and Federal laws that penalize it.
Thou shall not steal. ABOLISHED. But you shall not steal. Makes sense to you?
The speed limit of 50mph has been abolished on the high way and you are stopped by an officer and charged for exceeding 50mph. How is that possible?
How can there be no law against stealing but you are sinful if you steal? God removes the law but still holds me guilty if I break that which is no more?
This is folly! It either is or is not? IT IS ILLOGICAL IT IS NOT OF GOD!
 
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Elder 111

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That's exactly correct according to James. He's speaking to those who think they're keeping the law. Since the New Covenant doesn't include the law its impossible for its adherents to violate it.

I don't contend there's no law. You're trying to put words in my mouth and you don't understand being led by the Holy Spirit. Its not logical nor supportable from the Bible that God set us free from the law only to send us back into its bondage and hopelessness.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR POINT IS NOT BIBLICAL!
 
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Elder 111

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Lying by omission is still bearing false witness.
Did you really think Romans 7:7 refers to a different Law than verse 6 does?
A quote found only in Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21 shows that the Law we have been delivered from is none other than the covenant from Mount Sinai, the Ten Commandments. Regardless of the effort the whacko Adventists in Barbados and elsewhere attempt to re-define the old covenant, it shows a uniform rejection of Scripture on their part. The motive stems from a rejection of Christianity.
According to you the ten commandments was never given to us, so how can we be delivered from it? We can only be delivered from that which we were under.
 
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What I have said is the 10C's were not nailed to the cross. God would not nail commands he wrote with his own fingers to the cross. What I have said in Acts 15, is you do what 99% of Chrisitanity does by stopping at verse 20 and saying thats all they had to do (4 BASIC COMMANDS), yet skip verse 21 in which it says they will learn everything else they need to learn as they go along each Sabbath when they go to the synagogs. Those 4 things in Act 15 were just general starting guidelines for them, NOT.....these are the only 4 things gentiles need to adhere to only. And even with those 4 commands, many Christians eat medium rare meats, so they cant even keep that command of not eating food with blood in it.

Why do you keep quoting that lady to me, im not a SDA, I dont care about their false doctrine, and I dont agree with a majority of their teachings.
There's no implication that Christians are to attend the synagogue. If there is why don't you attend? It would give some credibility to what you're saying.

Would you kindly please explain why you talk like them and fiercely defend their teachings?
 
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LarryP2

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Thou shall not steal. ABOLISHED. But you shall not steal. Makes sense to you?

You can't possibly be that dense. First and foremost, the Noahide Commandments prohibited theft several hundred years before Moses recieved the Tablets on Sinai. The, The Jerusalem Council reaffirmed the Noahide laws in Ad 50. Then Paul denounced theft in SEVERAL places in the Epistles. Where you are getting the STRANGE idea that because the Mosaic Law has been abolished (which never applied to Gentiles in the first place) that theft is okay?



How can there be no law against stealing but you are sinful if you steal? God removes the law but still holds me guilty if I break that which is no more?

You a really are dead set on the falsehood that ONLY the Ten Commandments prohibit theft, aren't you ? Again, the New Testament is FILLED with prohibitions against theft that have NOTHING to do with the Ten Commandments.[/QUOTE]


This is folly!

No, its just "Law" 101. And you have no ability to understand the way that Law works.
 
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VictorC

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According to you the ten commandments was never given to us
It is Scripture that plainly says the Gentile nations were never given the old covenant, known by its name the Ten Commandments. Don't you remember your responsibility to show us where the Gentiles living on Barbados were given the covenant from Mount Sinai? Or when the adopted children of God were given the covenant exclusive to the children of Israel? I haven't forgotten your complete failure to support your departure from the Law's testimony.
so how can we be delivered from it? We can only be delivered from that which we were under.
Your latest excuse doesn't take the context into account, for verse 1 plainly says "I speak to those who know the law". Nor do you take verse 6 into account, and you didn't address the clear message of this passage showing "those who know the law", meaning the Law's recipients (which doesn't include you), have been delivered from the Ten Commandments, identified by a quote from nowhere else in the entire Law.

You've been arguing for Gentiles to adopt Judaism. That soteriology is a total failure, and doesn't apply to Christianity.
 
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If seeking and speaking the truth is being creatively twisted, then I am absolutely guilty.


So the problem was not the covenant but the fact that it was broken by one party-the Jews. So the fault was not in the law, but in breaking the law. As with any agreement between parties if one party fails to honor their part, the agreement becomes void. Good example, marriage. Is marriage no more because people break their vows? Is there no more marriage law? Is the problem with the law or the vow? There was always forgiveness otherwise no one from Adam to Christ can/would be saved. If they did not obtain forgiveness while they were alive they can not have it now. Dead men can't ask!


Please! Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Here is the difference.
The text you refer to specifically says cut an new stone. It doesn't say refurbish.

Furthermore it says not according to and specifically mentions the covenant made with Israel at Sinai. Deut 4:13 states specifically the covenant is the Ten Commandments.

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,(Christ as High Priest not a man) by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Not a different or no law!
 
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Thou shall not steal. ABOLISHED. But you shall not steal. Makes sense to you?
The speed limit of 50mph has been abolished on the high way and you are stopped by an officer and charged for exceeding 50mph. How is that possible?
How can there be no law against stealing but you are sinful if you steal? God removes the law but still holds me guilty if I break that which is no more?
This is folly! It either is or is not? IT IS ILLOGICAL IT IS NOT OF GOD!
Easy peasy.

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:13
 
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You can't possibly be that dense. First and foremost, the Noahide Commandments prohibited theft several hundred years before Moses recieved the Tablets on Sinai. The, The Jerusalem Council reaffirmed the Noahide laws in Ad 50. Then Paul denounced theft in SEVERAL places in the Epistles. Where you are getting the STRANGE idea that because the Mosaic Law has been abolished (which never applied to Gentiles in the first place) that theft is okay?
Wanna bet? I'll win, I promise!;):p
 
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VictorC

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Prove your contention they are. So far the evidence has been submitted proving they're not.
He knows that. He isn't going to prove anything that doesn't exist in Scripture, and everyone knows that. Review the nonsense he posted last December just before Christmas:
The Sabbath is the test. The tree in the mist of the Garden. That person have to decide on.
The above is Ellenese. This is the foundation of Elder111's religion that is absolutely foreign to Scripture. There's more:
Salvation is by Jesus and His Ten commandments, if you have a problem with that take up with Jesus Himself.
This is a clear illustration to a soteriology according to the old covenant's ordinances, with a "Jesus" thrown in while rejecting His redemption just to sound somewhat kosher. It isn't.
 
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pyramid33

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I had not known sin, but by the law:

Ah man, you mean if the law hadn't said that killing other people was wrong, you'd still think it was okay to kill people? Wowzer. Paul/Saul would gladly say he thought it was okay to kill Christian's. Let's move forward though. God's law is good. Holy.
 
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pyramid33

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Where did I even remotely suggest that? Its the pro law people trying to put words in the mouths of those who've accepted God's free gift. None of them promote sin. The law didn't invent sin.

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I don't see the word only in the above passage. Do you?

Nice. I thought you might have been against God's law. It is true, the law of God is against sinners. The law of God also happens to be mercy. The law of God is a 2 step forward process.
 
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