Lies about the Sabbath.

[Elder 111]

I have debunked the deceitful, slanderous and trashy smears that form the basis of this thread at:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7819291/

When Seventh Day Adventism's repeat the trashy and utterly dishonest smear that without the Ten Commandments Christians would believe it is "Ok to lie steal and kill," they arejust mindlessly parroting a massive deliberate hoax of Ellen G. White's. As I point out in the above thread, it is based on a deliberate decision of White's not to mention the Noahide laws that were given to Noah in the aftermath of the flood.

It turns out that Ellen White is the only one that believes it "is OK to lie and steal." She didn't just believe it, she LIVED it! Christians under the Grace of Jesus Christ and St. Paul's abolition of the entire Mosaic law have never believed that it was okay to do those things. For Adventists to insinuate that they do is an ugly, dishonest smear. That this blatantly anti-Christian smear campaign is permitted on a Christian website is just beyond belief.

No man can abolish the law of God including Paul.

 

[Elder 111]

There is nothing "wrong with a day of rest." But that is precisely the OPPOSITE of what Adventists are peddling with their deceitful Sabbath trash. Many Adventists will tell you that Sabbath for them is so nerve-wracking and busy, they have to actually rest up for the work week on Sunday!

Secondly, perfect Sabbath Keeping for Adventists is an anti-Christian and heretical plan of Salvation by Works. It is the exact opposite of the Gospel! They earn their way to heaven that way. That is why the Founding Fathers of Christianity unanimously condemned Sabbath Keeping as a satanic anti-Christian heresy.

Where and when was this? Does this mean that the Sabbath was never ordained by God? That Jesus lied when He said it was created for man? Mark 2:27. How is Jesus lord over evil? Mark 2:28

Third, Adventists love to preen and gloat over their supposed moral superiority over mere Christians, in that supposedly the Adventists are the only ones keeping the Ten Commandments. That is an utterly preposterous and deceitful fraud. Paul denounces the exactly same sinful behaviors the Commandments do (and then some) without ensnaring Christians into the cultic snare of heretical Sabbath Keeping. The Founding Fathers of Christianity likewise denounce all manner of sinful wrongdoing, but NEVER add the Sabbath to their lists of do's and don'ts.

Because it was being kept by Christians. No need to tell them do what they were already doing.

Whatever else Adventists may be doing, the one thing they do NOT advocate is a simply "day of rest."

Quite bluntly, for Seventh Day Adventism the Sabbath is FAR FAR more important than the Resurrection. The Resurrection is the central point of Christianity, with really no second place. Just look at Adventis's Sabbath trash posts: Sabbath posts outnumber Resurrection posts at an approximate 3 Trillion to one ratio.

Lie. No need to mention what everyone accepts, is there? What would you correct someone about? what they had correct or incorrect?

 

[Elder 111]

There is nothing "wrong with a day of rest." But that is precisely the OPPOSITE of what Adventists are peddling with their deceitful Sabbath trash. Many Adventists will tell you that Sabbath for them is so nerve-wracking and busy, they have to actually rest up for the work week on Sunday!

Secondly, perfect Sabbath Keeping for Adventists is an anti-Christian and heretical plan of Salvation by Works. It is the exact opposite of the Gospel! They earn their way to heaven that way. That is why the Founding Fathers of Christianity unanimously condemned Sabbath Keeping as a satanic anti-Christian heresy.

Where and when was this? Does this mean that the Sabbath was never ordained by God? That Jesus lied when He said it was created for man? Mark 2:27. How is Jesus lord over evil? Mark 2:28

Third, Adventists love to preen and gloat over their supposed moral superiority over mere Christians, in that supposedly the Adventists are the only ones keeping the Ten Commandments. That is an utterly preposterous and deceitful fraud. Paul denounces the exactly same sinful behaviors the Commandments do (and then some) without ensnaring Christians into the cultic snare of heretical Sabbath Keeping. The Founding Fathers of Christianity likewise denounce all manner of sinful wrongdoing, but NEVER add the Sabbath to their lists of do's and don'ts.

Because it was being kept by Christians. No need to tell them do what they were already doing.

Whatever else Adventists may be doing, the one thing they do NOT advocate is a simply "day of rest."

Quite bluntly, for Seventh Day Adventism the Sabbath is FAR FAR more important than the Resurrection. The Resurrection is the central point of Christianity, with really no second place. Just look at Adventis's Sabbath trash posts: Sabbath posts outnumber Resurrection posts at an approximate 3 Trillion to one ratio.

Lie. No need to mention what everyone accepts, is there? What would you correct someone about? what they had correct or incorrect?

 

[Cribstyl]

No man can abolish the law of God including Paul.

Not sure why SDA always say this. God is the one who said; I will give you a new covenant unlike the one given to Moses. The question for you is what was the covenant did God give to those whom He took out of Egypt?

Jer 31:32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 

[from scratch]

No man can abolish the law of God including Paul.

Elder we've said quite a few times that man didn't abolish the law, God did as He promised and Jesus testified. No this doesn't mean we free to sin without repercussion. You've been pointed to appropriate passages in the New Testament showing support for this and you just throw them out. You operate on code words and denial partly through locked in faulty definitions.

 

[LarryP2]

Where and when was this? Does this mean that the Sabbath was never ordained by God? That Jesus lied when He said it was created for man? Mark 2:27. How is Jesus lord over evil? Mark 2:28

The Sabbath was "ordained by God" for the Israelites, NOT Gentiles! Judaism has ALWAYS strongly enforced the clear prohibition against Gentile Sabbath Keeping with the Death Penalty! Gentiles were covered by the Noahide Commandments, that predated the Mosaic Law by many hundreds of years. Judaism has ALWAYS interpreted it that way. Ellen White deliberately withheld the existence of the Noahide laws in her book "Patriarchs and Prophets," even though she plagiarized most of P & P from Edersheim, who CLEARLY laid out the existence of that body of law and court system that enforced them. That White failed to mention the Noahide Commandment in P & P is just a deliberate, calculated fraud.

Because it was being kept by Christians. No need to tell them do what they were already doing.

Gentile Christians NEVER kept the Sabbath. That is absolutely CLEAR from the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem decree. The Apostles NEVER required Gentile Christians to keep the Sabbath. NEVER! How could they? Jewish Law was clear: Gentiles were/are absolutely prohibited from Sabbath Keeping, on the penalty of Death. St. Paul NEVER commands Christians to keep the Sabbath! While Paul lists in details prohibited behavior among Christians, he NEVER suggests that Christians should keep the Jewish Sabbath. NEVER!

Both Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr harshly condemned Sabbath Keeping as an anti-Christian heresy. Read it right here:

"Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace."
....
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ "
CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Magnesians (St. Ignatius)

And here is Justin Martyr (he is speaking to his Jewish friend Trypho here):

"But we do not trust through Moses or through the law; for then we would do the same as yourselves. But now--(for I have read that there shall be a final law, and a covenant, the chiefest of all, which it is now incumbent on all men to observe, as many as are seeking after the inheritance of God. For the law promulgated on Horeb is now old, and belongs to yourselves alone; but this is for all universally. Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law--namely, Christ--has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy, after which there shall be no law, no commandment, no ordinance."
....
"Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed."
....
"The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled."
Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

It is clear: Sabbath Keeping was condemned and excommunicated early on in Christianity. These two brave martyrs willingly faced death and savage torture to preserve the Christianity that they were taught directly by the Apostles. Most notably, Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of the Apostle John and took over as Bishop of Antioch from St. Peter, who was sent to Rome. It is absolutely clear that Ignatius's anti-Sabbath Keeping doctrine came straight out of the mouths of John and Peter.

Lie. No need to mention what everyone accepts, is there? What would you correct someone about? what they had correct or incorrect?

Actually, Christianity is sharply-defined by its overwhelming obsession with the Resurrection, which is Christianity's central doctrine. Thank you for clearly-confirming that Seventh Day Adventism is unequivocally-opposed to Christianity's elevation of the Resurrection as its central doctrine, and the central event of history. You made a nice, bright-line distinction between Christianity and Adventism. Christianity= The Resurrection; Adventism= The Sabbath. Christianity has since its beginning has STRONGLY preached that the Resurrection is the be all and end all of the Bible AND Christianity. It isn't just a mere "doctrine," it is the sum total of Christianity! It is GOOD that you have publicly disclosed your anti-Resurrection bias. Ex-Adventists who have extracted themselves from that anti-Christian cult have this to say about the Resurrection:

"Scripture is clear that if there had been no resurrection, there would be no gospel; the resurrection is the act that affirms Christ’s deity and His power to truly save us from sin and raise us to eternal life with Him.....Paul sees the resurrection of Christ as part of the “irreducible minimum” of the gospel message, a truth we see in the teaching of Jesus and the apostles following Pentecost. In fact, he goes so far as to say that apart from the resurrection, preaching and faith are vain and worthless things, and we are still in our sin."

http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2014_1.pdf

That open-denigration of the Resurrection, and elevating the Sabbath to replace it, is allowed on a Christian website is truly mind-boggling. What is it by now? 80 trillion or so Sabbath trash posts versus a handful on the Resurrection? And you just proved beyond a reasonable doubt the following:

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.

http://www.abaptistvoice.com/English/Articles/Miscelanous/WhyIAmABaptist.htm

There is a clear-cut choice: Christianity/Resurrection versus Adventism/Sabbath. Again, the ex-Adventist community has stepped up to bat with this analysis from one of Walter Martin's former cult apologetics associates:

From: "My Mind Was Opened, My Heart was Broken." By Paul Carden, former associate of Walter Martin.

"Seventh-day Adventism distorts or denies nearly every central teaching of the historic Christian Faith. While its façade is benign, the devil is in the details.......I’m convinced that evangelicals around the world desperately need a straightforward summary of Adventism’s toxic doctrines and their impact on the people who follow them.....Here, however, is the inconvenient truth: a high regard for Adventism as a system or of the Seventh-day Adventist church as an institution usually corresponds to a low regard for the suffering of the millions of people who are so often and easily damaged by it......I have reached the conclusion that Seventh-day Adventism—as a system—is deeply heretical and undeniably cultic."

http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2014_1.pdf

Choose wisely.

 

[from scratch]

Where and when was this? Does this mean that the Sabbath was never ordained by God? That Jesus lied when He said it was created for man? Mark 2:27. How is Jesus lord over evil? Mark 2:28

When divorced from context and given you meaning, yes Jesus lied.

Because it was being kept by Christians. No need to tell them do what they were already doing.

No it was being kept by Jewish Christians in and around Jerusalem for a short period of time.

 

[from scratch]

Not sure why SDA always say this. God is the one who said; I will give you a new covenant unlike the one given to Moses. The question for you is what was the covenant did God give to those whom He took out of Egypt?

Jer 31:32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

I do. They accept neither the words of the prophet Jeremiah or the Apostle Paul.

 

[VictorC]

SDA HYMNAL 40 - The Dawn of God's Dear Sabbath
...
SDA HYMNAL 387 - Come O Sabbath Day
...
Here is what I think is the entire list of Sabbath Hymns, by title:
380 - Welcome, Day of Sweet Repose
381 - Holy Sabbath Day of Rest
382 - O Day of Rest and Gladness
384 - Safely Through Another Week
387 - Come, O Sabbath Day
388 - Don't Forget the Sabbath
390 - We Love Thy Sabbath, Lord
391 - Welcome, Welcome, Day of Rest
392 - Dear Lord, We Come at Set of Sun
393 - Lord of the Sabbath

A pattern emerges in these hymnals, revealing the true object of worship.

Romans 1:25 HCSB
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen.​

 

[VictorC]

Lies about the Sabbath.

1. It was not from creation.
2. It was for the Jews only.
3. It was abolished.
4. The early Christians did not keep the Sabbath.
5. That Paul said it was not necessary to keep the Sabbath.
6. That Revelation 1:10 is not about the Sabbath.
7. The Sabbath can be any day.
8. That Heb 4 is not about the 7th day Sabbath.

With the exception of #7 above, everything you listed is faithful to Scripture's testimony. They aren't 'lies'. For #7, Judaism never changed the Sabbath, and they're the ones bound to it - Christianity affirms God's rest, and not the periodic shadow ordained in the old covenant. We've discussed these topics before at length, and I see that discussion hasn't helped lead you toward God's redemption. You're still obsessed with a tenet of the old covenant that Christianity isn't bound to.

 

[LarryP2]

A pattern emerges in these hymnals, revealing the true object of worship.

Romans 1:25 HCSB
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen.​

You know what Victor? When I read through those hymns and thought about the wording of them for awhile, I was really STRUCK by a basic unity in Christianity......hold onto your hats and let me finish! Just since I survived my very first Eastern Orthodox Pascha (Easter) celebration, I've given a LOT of thought about the Resurrection. Orthodox Easter is an incredibly, wildly over-the-top week-long extravaganza celebrating NOTHING but the Resurrection. For Orthodoxy, Easter is a combination of the Super Bowl, the Presidential Inauguration, the 4th of July, Christmas and Lincoln's Birthday multiplied by 5 trillion. Orthodoxy has been accused of being "excessive" in its celebration, which would be meritorious if it was celebrating anything else. Simply put, the Resurrection CANNOT be over-emphasized, cannot be celebrated "excessively" and cannot be over-stressed.

Yet, in reality, ALL orthodox Christianity has the Resurrection as THE central doctrine. Even "One-ness" Pentecostals go "over the top." It doesn't matter whether you celebrate Easter in a drop-dead-gorgeous Gothic Cathedral with a Yale-Educated, Doctorate Degreed Priest, a professional paid choir and a 10,000 pipe organ. Or whether you celebrate Easter in a sawdust-floored circus tent filled with backwoods stump-toothed hillbillies rolling around in the sawdust with their eyes rolled backwards into the sockets, presided over by a foam-flecked-mouthed, stump-toothed hillbilly preacher with a six week internet Bible course under his belt playing the harmonica. The result is the same: The Resurrection is paramount, nothing else is even in 5,000th place. Nothing else is even CLOSE to being in 5,000th place.

Everyone but Seventh Day Adventists. When I grew up SDA, Easter was horrifying. There would be a fire and brimstone Sabbath service wherein Easter was harshly and unequivocally-denounced as a purely Satanic tool. And we were sometimes lucky to sneak two or three jellybeans, as long as we promised not to tell anyone at Church. We would gloat and preen over our superiority compared to "Babylon" Christians and their silly Easter Celebration, drenched in Paganism and the Mark of the Beast. We don't need no Easter, cuz we got the Sabbath!

Every. Single. Memory I have growing up SDA was the relentless denigration of the Resurrection.

 

[VictorC]

Every. Single. Memory I have growing up SDA was the relentless denigration of the Resurrection.

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Without the central tenet of Christ's resurrection, there is absolutely no point in going through the motions of vanity.

 

[LarryP2]

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Without the central tenet of Christ's resurrection, there is absolutely no point in going through the motions of vanity.

That is spot on. When I talk to other people about their Christian experience, I invariably steer the conversation around to the Resurrection. What do you guys do to celebrate it? How often? How big? What does it mean to you? Quite frankly, I could care less what else they believe, as long as the Resurrection is numero uno. I don't care if they are a hillbilly handling poisonous snakes and babbling in tongues like Robert Deniro did in the last scene in Cape Fear. Or whether they are an Anglican with a Doctorate from Oxford that dresses, talks and acts just like the characters in Chariots of Fire.

What about the Resurrection? That's what I want to know. That's all that matters to me.

 

[from scratch]

You know what Victor? When I read through those hymns and thought about the wording of them for awhile, I was really STRUCK by a basic unity in Christianity......hold onto your hats and let me finish! Just since I survived my very first Eastern Orthodox Pascha (Easter) celebration, I've given a LOT of thought about the Resurrection. Orthodox Easter is an incredibly, wildly over-the-top week-long extravaganza celebrating NOTHING but the Resurrection. For Orthodoxy, Easter is a combination of the Super Bowl, the Presidential Inauguration, the 4th of July, Christmas and Lincoln's Birthday multiplied by 5 trillion. Orthodoxy has been accused of being "excessive" in its celebration, which would be meritorious if it was celebrating anything else. Simply put, the Resurrection CANNOT be over-emphasized, cannot be celebrated "excessively" and cannot be over-stressed.

Yet, in reality, ALL orthodox Christianity has the Resurrection as THE central doctrine. Even "One-ness" Pentecostals go "over the top." It doesn't matter whether you celebrate Easter in a drop-dead-gorgeous Gothic Cathedral with a Yale-Educated, Doctorate Degreed Priest, a professional paid choir and a 10,000 pipe organ. Or whether you celebrate Easter in a sawdust-floored circus tent filled with backwoods stump-toothed hillbillies rolling around in the sawdust with their eyes rolled backwards into the sockets, presided over by a foam-flecked-mouthed, stump-toothed hillbilly preacher with a six week internet Bible course under his belt playing the harmonica. The result is the same: The Resurrection is paramount, nothing else is even in 5,000th place. Nothing else is even CLOSE to being in 5,000th place.

Everyone but Seventh Day Adventists. When I grew up SDA, Easter was horrifying. There would be a fire and brimstone Sabbath service wherein Easter was harshly and unequivocally-denounced as a purely Satanic tool. And we were sometimes lucky to sneak two or three jellybeans, as long as we promised not to tell anyone at Church. We would gloat and preen over our superiority compared to "Babylon" Christians and their silly Easter Celebration, drenched in Paganism and the Mark of the Beast. We don't need no Easter, cuz we got the Sabbath!

Every. Single. Memory I have growing up SDA was the relentless denigration of the Resurrection.

Yep the resurrection is the number one item on their hate list.

 

[Elder 111]

Not sure why SDA always say this. God is the one who said; I will give you a new covenant unlike the one given to Moses. The question for you is what was the covenant did God give to those whom He took out of Egypt?

Jer 31:32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

A new Covenant is not the removal of the law. You need to check that.

 

[Elder 111]

Elder we've said quite a few times that man didn't abolish the law, God did as He promised and Jesus testified. No this doesn't mean we free to sin without repercussion. You've been pointed to appropriate passages in the New Testament showing support for this and you just throw them out. You operate on code words and denial partly through locked in faulty definitions.

God never promise to abolish the Ten commandments and Jesus absolutely did not testify to that!

 

[pyramid33]

Lie about the Sabbath.

"You are not free to choose when to worship God, therefore I hate you and the sabbath and choose to worship Paul instead".

 

[Elder 111]

Lie about the Sabbath.

"You are not free to choose when to worship God, therefore I hate you and the sabbath and choose to worship Paul instead".

Paul is Saviour?

 

[Cribstyl]

A new Covenant is not the removal of the law. You need to check that.

The ten commandments are the Old Covenant. You need to read and accept that....

Exo 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Deu 4:13
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[LarryP2]

God never promise to abolish the Ten commandments and Jesus absolutely did not testify to that!

That's correct, Judaism still keeps them. That's who they were written for, not Christians under the New Covenant. More Resurrection Denial here. Do you even the slightest conception of how terrible your Adventist Sabbath Product®©™ Fetish/Resurrection Denial looks like? Why this is allowed on a Christian website is just amazing. Your particular anti-Christian heresy was vigorously denounced, renounced and excommunicated by the heroic Church Fathers in the First Century. History is clear on that. Seventh Day Adventism is just a revival of the Ebionite Heresy, complete with Sabbath Keeping and Vegetarianism.

A new Covenant is not the removal of the law. You need to check that.

In case you haven't noticed, Christianity is a different religion than Judaism. Furthermore, there was NO "removal of the law." That is a ridiculous, ugly and slanderous smear that was dreamed up by your false prophet. Paul articulated all kinds of do's and don'ts for Christians that actually apply to them, that were actually written by an inspired Apostle, chosen by God, to articulate the new Christian way of living. Furthermore, you really ARE NOT worried about the Ten Commandments. You are only worried about huckstering and scamming the Adventist Sabbath Product®©™, since you are fully-invested in Resurrection Denial. You can pretend that you follow the Ten Commandments and proclaim your self-righteousness for doing so, but Christianity has always defined itself very well without your help, thank you very much. What you're peddling is NOT Christianity. Nobody here believes you when you proclaim that you keep the Sabbath, because you don't. You THINK you do, but you don't. You aren't even CLOSE to keeping it. Nor will you EVER be able to keep it. Your Adventist Sabbath Product®©™ in no way resembles the Sabbath as defined in the Old Testament.

Christianity = The Resurrrection

Adventism = The Adventist Sabbath Product®©™

Choose wisely.