Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Satt]

How do you know that Jesus did not somehow receive a does of infinite torment in Hell for our sins to satisfy the father? An infinite being can accomplish infinite tasks in ways our finite logic will never comprehend.

There's no such thing as a "dose" of infinity. It's either forever or it's not.

 

[Sophrosyne]

There's no such thing as a "dose" of infinity. It's either forever or it's not.

Prove it, we do not understand infinity but based upon finite understanding. I contend is may be possible to Jesus to receive infinite punishment in a dimension where everything is infinite and without time and also exist in a universe where he is not being punished simultaneously.
The bible does not explain the mechanism unto which sins were poured out and accepted for/ punished for by the triune God so insisting Jesus could not take upon himself infinite punishment is insisting Jesus is less than infinite.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi sophrosyne...

How do you know that Jesus did not somehow receive a does of infinite torment in Hell for our sins to satisfy the father? An infinite being can accomplish infinite tasks in ways our finite logic will never comprehend.

"Satisfy the Father"? You think that JESUS ..."recieving a dose of torment" in HELL for our sins is "satisfying" to His Father? Are you serious?

This suggestion of yours, wreaks of fallacy!! ...if those whom you suppose are NOT beneficiaries of CHRIST's sacrifice must"spend eternity" in HELL...

Then the equal "DOSE" which CHRIST must give on behalf of EACH of those who do NOT BENEFIT, is multiplied by the number SAVED in order to EQUAL each individual which must spend eternity, to which dose YOU and others like you suppose in each case, to be FOREVER! CHRIST being FOREVER tortured in HELL, for EACH one which is saved!

What ILLOGICAL thinking! Which is as far from TRUTH as it could possibly be.

What "satisfies" the Father is GOODNESS and HOLINESS and doing that which is RIGHT -- -- not TORMENTING creatures which HE LOVES (unchangingly) -- John 3:16 -17


How OTHER than flattering, to YHVH GOD, ...is YOUR suggestion that VIOLENCE and TORMENT "satisfy" the Father! ...the thought itself is completely SICK!

The God you (appear to) believe in FOREVER VENGENT, Never getting over His ANGER, not to mention, ...is certainly NOT the FATHER which IS LOVE itself -- 1 John 4:8 -- and which sent -- 1 John 4:14 -- His Son to SAVE the WORLD (not to TORTURE it!)

His Son did exactly that! -- Matt 17:5 -- by promoting and teaching GRACE, FORGIVENESS, and especially MERCY -- Matt 5:38-44 -- Which JESUS CHRIST indeed did -- John 8:11 -- even unto His final breaths -- Luke 23:34

The SPIRIT which decended from HEAVEN upon CHRIST was "like a DOVE" (pure, peaceful, without malice), ...NOT a VENGENT BENT, malignant, demented, "executioner"!

Rom 1:20 -- according to your thinking SIN abounds MUCH MORE than GRACE...

I really feel sorry for you... ...really!

Peace...


...willieH

 

[Sophrosyne]

willieH: Hi sophrosyne...
<endless appeal to emotion rant deleted>

I really feel sorry for you... ...really!

Peace...


...willieH

God poured out his wrath upon Jesus on the cross. Wrath is such that it on a level has to be satified. All your excessive appeal to emotion followed by pitying me doesn't lead me to think you are interested in intelligent discussion at all..... I shall probably ignore your replies to me for the pity remark.

 

[createdtoworship]

You are saying "people who agree with me agree with me."
Other than the tradition of eternal torment, there is no reason to believe that apoleia and apollumi "must never be construed as meaning extinction." Why? Just because if you take the regular meaning of apollumi and apoleia you must reject the standard teaching of eternal torment in hell. That is something you and the others are unwilling to do at any cost.

you need to prove that the "actual word" means to destroy to the point of non existence (using the Bible of course). This is very hard to prove for you. The word means utter destruction but you can't prove that the destruction makes the object non existent.

Apoleias can have the figurative meaning of loss, as in My son was dead, and now he lives, my sheep was dead to me and now he is found, my coin was dead to me and now found. But this figuative language does not negate the actual word in every instance. You intend to say that apoleia can not mean destruction in any case, just because the word is used figuratively i

You still need to prove the "regular meaning" of apoleia means that objects no longer exist that are perishing or are being destroyed. Very few if any objects in the Bible are non existent up on destruction.

secondly, there are words for destruction that are currently undergoing destruction: Apollumi is another example, has an alternative rendering of apollumenoi and it means "those who are perishing"
or currently being destroyed but not destroyed yet found in 1 Cor 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:10.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM A BOOK ON ANSWERING THE CULTS

2 PETER 3:7&#8212;Does going into perdition refer to annihilation?

MISINTERPRETATION: Annihilationists who deny an eternal conscious punishment claim that Peter&#8217;s reference to &#8220;perdition&#8221; supports their view. Indeed, Judas is called the &#8220;son of perdition&#8221; (John 17:12). Since the word perdition (apoleia) simply means to perish, annihilationists such as the Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses argue that the lost will perish or go out of existence (e.g., You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, 1982, 83).

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: The word perdition (apoleia) simply means to perish or to come to ruin. In 2 Peter 3:7 it is used in the context of judgment, a term that implies consciousness.
That the wicked are said to go into &#8220;perdition&#8221; (2 Peter 3:7) and Judas is called the &#8220;son of perdition&#8221; (John 17:12) need not mean they will be annihilated. Junk cars perish in the sense of having been ruined. But they are still cars, ruined as they may be, and they are still in the junkyard. In this connection, Jesus spoke of hell as a junkyard or dump where the fire would not cease and where a person&#8217;s resurrected body would not be consumed (see Mark 9:48).
Jesus spoke repeatedly of people in hell as being in continual agony. He declared that &#8220;the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth&#8221; (Matt. 8:12 niv; cf. 22:13; 24:51; 25:30). But a place of weeping is obviously a place of conscious sorrow. Those who are not conscious do not weep. See comments on 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

Geisler, Norman L. ; Rhodes, Ron: When Cultists Ask : A Popular Handbook on Cultic Misinterpretations. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1997, S. 297

THE FACT THAT I AM GETTING THESE ANSWERS FROM CULT ANSWER BOOK OUGHT TO SCARE ANYONE THAT BELIEVES IN ANNIHILATION.

 

[Timothew]

THE FACT THAT I AM GETTING THESE ANSWERS FROM CULT ANSWER BOOK OUGHT TO SCARE ANYONE THAT BELIEVES IN ANNIHILATION.

OK, We talked about this before, now PAY ATTENTION!
Just because a cult has a belief, that in itself, does not make the belief false.
This is a logical fallacy. JWs also believe in God, Does this mean we should not?
So the fact that JWs believe something is completely irrelevant to whether it is true or not true.

Your cult answer book does not scare me, and it shouldn't scare anyone who cares about the truth.

If you can't prove that God tortures sinners in hell forever by using the scriptures, don't bother trying to confuse the issue by bringing up what the cults teach. Each time you bring up the JWs you are admitting that you have NO biblical case for tormentalism.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK, We talked about this before, now PAY ATTENTION!
Just because a cult has a belief, that in itself, does not make the belief false.
This is a logical fallacy. JWs also believe in God, Does this mean we should not?
So the fact that JWs believe something is completely irrelevant to whether it is true or not true.

Your cult answer book does not scare me, and it shouldn't scare anyone who cares about the truth.

If you can't prove that God tortures sinners in hell forever by using the scriptures, don't bother trying to confuse the issue by bringing up what the cults teach. Each time you bring up the JWs you are admitting that you have NO biblical case for tormentalism.

But the arguments sound familiar yes? Note: I never said YOU were a Jehovah's witness, I just said that if many of your arguments are also in a cultists book, then maybe, just maybe .....
you should reevaluate. I also noticed that when I asked you to provide proof that destruction means destruction to the point of non existence, you simply couldn't. So now it's time for you to own up to the fact that you cannot prove your annihilationism with a single verse in the entirety of the Bible.

 

[tackattack]

I am an annihiationist. I believe that post-Jessus' death,

1-upon our death our consciousness cease recording (sleep) until the day of judgement. This would be what's commonly refered to as the "first death". Job 14:10-14, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, Acts 2:34, Psalm 6:5 and I'm sure there are plenty more that support that.
2-On the day of judgement Jesus seperates the wheat from the chaff. I don't think this point is in dispute. Hopefully
3- Dealing specifically with the condemned, Jesus says that the body and souls are both destroyed in Ghenna or Hell. In Revelation, Sheol is even thrown into Hell for destrction. How long they stay in hell is unknown to me. I'm not sure whether it's based on their faith, or their action, or a set time. I know that the time frame of the torment is finite as destruction defines. MAtt. 10:28, Ezek. 18:4,20 are some verses I feel support that.


What I don't get is how people can believe a)in the depth, bredth and power of God's fogiveness and b) believe that there is consciousness in hell to experience torment and c) rationalize that a God that is Love and is just and more importantly unchanging could eternally condemn billions to torture that lasts forever and set aside His great mercy and forgiveness.

I mean don't you beleive that dipping a toe in Hell would make everyone confess that Jesus and God are real and that they are sinners in need of saving? Yet still they suffer? It just doesn't make sense to me. It makes simple and perfect sence that if you're sitting around a campfire and you throw some paper into the campfire that it's gone forever, reduced to nothing. It may take 10 seconds or 10 minutes to burn, but it burns.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Two words:
God's wrath.

 

[Truth_Warrior]

OK, We talked about this before, now PAY ATTENTION!
Just because a cult has a belief, that in itself, does not make the belief false.
This is a logical fallacy. JWs also believe in God, Does this mean we should not?
So the fact that JWs believe something is completely irrelevant to whether it is true or not true.

Your cult answer book does not scare me, and it shouldn't scare anyone who cares about the truth.

If you can't prove that God tortures sinners in hell forever by using the scriptures, don't bother trying to confuse the issue by bringing up what the cults teach. Each time you bring up the JWs you are admitting that you have NO biblical case for tormentalism.

Brother,at some point when the person on the other side of any debate uses arguements like putting you in a cultist category you have won the debate whether your view is right or not(which in my opinion is right by the way).

I conceded a point with graydll about proving ainion means ages and ages simply because most lexicons don't give an accurate definition of its usage in greek,so I conceded that point just so the debate on the word wouldn't skew the real topic of the thread,In his arrogance he must have thought that was weakness and did his best to go in for the kill IMHO.

If you go back and read his response you won't find much in the way of a Christian response as it was still full of arrogance and lacked humility.

He has his belief and I respect that but he thinks this is some kind of war and he has the right to belittle and sling verbal punches at the expense of others.


When anyone has that posture brother just sit back and pray for them because the only loser of any debate is the one who can't hold himself in check and let the his own arogance and pride get the best of him.
Some people must think that because its on a computer that its ok to act in a way that you would not face to face.

Words are words whether in person or thousands of miles apart because IMHO we all serve the same Lord.
Good rule of thumb is to act like you are talking to another member of your church at home.
You have done a great job keeping yourself under control.

 

[Timothew]

But the arguments sound familiar yes? Note: I never said YOU were a Jehovah's witness, I just said that if many of your arguments are also in a cultists book, then maybe, just maybe .....
you should reevaluate. I also noticed that when I asked you to provide proof that destruction means destruction to the point of non existence, you simply couldn't. So now it's time for you to own up to the fact that you cannot prove your annihilationism with a single verse in the entirety of the Bible.

The wages of sin is DEATH.

 

[Timothew]

Romans 11:15b
what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

What is the result of accepting God's gift? Life.
What was the fate before accepting the gift of life? Death.
So there is eternal life for those who accept God's gift of eternal life, and there is death for those who refuse to accept the gift of eternal life.

Or was Paul in error? Should he have written "what will their acceptance be but escape from eternal torment in hell"?

 

[he-man]

I am an annihiationist. I believe that post-Jessus' death,

1-upon our death our consciousness cease recording (sleep) until the day of judgement. This would be what's commonly refered to as the "first death". Job 14:10-14, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, Acts 2:34, Psalm 6:5 and I'm sure there are plenty more that support that.
2-On the day of judgement Jesus seperates the wheat from the chaff. I don't think this point is in dispute. Hopefully

What I don't get is how people can believe a)in the depth, bredth and power of God's fogiveness and b) believe that there is consciousness in hell to experience torment and c) rationalize that a God that is Love and is just and more importantly unchanging could eternally condemn billions that lasts forever and set aside His great mercy and forgiveness.

It makes simple and perfect sence that if you're sitting around a campfire and you throw some paper into the campfire that it's gone forever, reduced to nothing.

You are mostly correct on what the Bible says:
Isaiah 66:15-16
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Jude 5-6
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Romans 11:15b
what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

What is the result of accepting God's gift? Life.
What was the fate before accepting the gift of life? Death.
So there is eternal life for those who accept God's gift of eternal life, and there is death for those who refuse to accept the gift of eternal life.

Or was Paul in error? Should he have written "what will their acceptance be but escape from eternal torment in hell"?

If Paul was in error, so was his bro Peter

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

2 Peter 3:15 and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul--according to the wisdom given to him--did write to you 1
6 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things,in which is difficult-to-understand, whoany which the unlearned and unsteadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>
[This form of #684 used in Revelation 17:8]

Reve 17:8 The beast which you perceived was, and not is, and is being about to be ascending out of the abyss, and into destruction/apwleian <684> it is going away.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Strong's Number G684 matches the Greek &#7936;&#960;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945; (ap&#333;leia), which occurs 20 times in 19 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
1) destroying, utter destruction a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction a) of money b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery

684. apoleia ap-o'-li-a from a presumed derivative of 622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):--damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Originally Posted by tackattack I am an annihiationist. I believe that post-Jessus' death,

1-upon our death our consciousness cease recording (sleep) until the day of judgement. This would be what's commonly refered to as the "first death". Job 14:10-14, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, Acts 2:34, Psalm 6:5 and I'm sure there are plenty more that support that.
2-On the day of judgement Jesus seperates the wheat from the chaff. I don't think this point is in dispute. Hopefully

What I don't get is how people can believe a)in the depth, bredth and power of God's fogiveness and b) believe that there is consciousness in hell to experience torment and c) rationalize that a God that is Love and is just and more importantly unchanging could eternally condemn billions that lasts forever and set aside His great mercy and forgiveness.

It makes simple and perfect sence that if you're sitting around a campfire and you throw some paper into the campfire that it's gone forever, reduced to nothing.

Interesting post

 

[Timothew]

If Paul was in error, so was his bro Peter

Are we (Paul and Timothy) like others, who need to bring you letters of recommendation, or who ask you to write such letters on their behalf? Surely not! (2 Cor 3:1 NLT)

Paul is not in error, and neither are we who are trusting in what he wrote. The gospel is in Paul's Letters and Peter's, and John's revelation and all 4 gospels, the gospel is that we can have eternal life instead of eternal death and this life is in Christ.

 

[he-man]

If Paul was in error, so was his bro Peter
6 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things,in which is difficult-to-understand, who any which the unlearned and unsteadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>
Reve 17:8 The beast which you perceived was, and not is, and is being about to be ascending out of the abyss, and into destruction/apwleian

And just who is that beast????
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Strong's Number G684 matches the Greek &#7936;&#960;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945; (ap&#333;leia), which occurs 20 times in 19 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
1) destroying, utter destruction a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction a) of money b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery

684. apoleia ap-o'-li-a from a presumed derivative of 622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):--damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Interesting post

2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, seeing you foreknew, guard that not to be led together from the fallacy of the wicked, to fall from your own foothold.1
1* Greek &#963;&#964;&#951;&#961;&#953;&#947;&#956;&#959;&#965; stanchion abutment, foothold, bearer

 

[LutheranMafia]

Its bad practice to try and make scripture contradict itself.

Indeed it is, so how is it that you are so willing to ccontradict Matthew 10:28?

The soul can be killed in the grave.

None of the verses that you have provided indicate anything of the kind.

Do you believe the bible in its entirety?

Yes.

 

[LutheranMafia]

[God]...could eternally condemn billions to torture that lasts forever and set aside His great mercy and forgiveness.

I don't think it is billions. Jesus says that only blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable both in this age and the age to come. I think that this is extremely rare.

 

[Timothew]

Indeed it is, so how is it that you are so willing to contradict Matthew 10:28?

He didn't contradict Matthew 10:28.
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#956;&#8052; &#966;&#959;&#946;&#951;&#952;&#8134;&#964;&#949; &#7936;&#960;&#8056; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#954;&#964;&#949;&#953;&#957;&#972;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#964;&#8056; &#963;&#8182;&#956;&#945;, &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#948;&#8050; &#968;&#965;&#967;&#8052;&#957; &#956;&#8052; &#948;&#965;&#957;&#940;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#969;&#957; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#954;&#964;&#949;&#8150;&#957;&#945;&#953;· &#966;&#959;&#946;&#949;&#8150;&#963;&#952;&#949; &#948;&#8050; &#956;&#8118;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#948;&#965;&#957;&#940;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#968;&#965;&#967;&#8052;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#963;&#8182;&#956;&#945; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#941;&#963;&#945;&#953; &#7952;&#957; &#947;&#949;&#941;&#957;&#957;&#8131;.

And don't be afraid of those that kill the body but cannot kill the life - Rather fear the one who is able to destroy both life and body in gehenna.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Willie, we are on the same page.

Well then, you are in good company. Willie is constantly yelling (using upper case) and raving in lunatic fashion.