Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[LutheranMafia]

Death does not mean the same thing as eternal torment. Death is the state of being dead, as you have shown.

Because you don't believe in an afterlife you assume that death is an unconscious state, but you have to admit that you are in a tiny minority here. The vast majority of people, excluding atheists JW's and Seventh Day Adventists, believe in a conscious afterlife. So your assertion that death is the state of being dead only invokes thoughts of a conscious afterlife for most of us.

Is it possible for you to fathom any other point of view other than your own? Can you see how your arguments appear from any light other than your that of your own personal opinion?

Torment is something else:
1: the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
2: extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : agony
3: a source of vexation or pain

That is exactly what is described in Jude 1:13 and Rev 20:10.

 

[LutheranMafia]

That is something you and the others are unwilling to do at any cost.

Such hypocrisy! You are the one desperately clinging to the belief that the comma is in the wrong place in every translation of Luke 23:43 other than the JW's. You are the one who desperately avoids the issue of spirit death and how the Bible never speaks of it, even though it speaks plainly of soul death.

 

[Mikecpking]

And Matthew 10:28 states clearly that the body can die without the soul dying, and that the soul only dies in hell, not simply at physical death.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​

Its bad practice to try and make scripture contradict itself. The soul can be killed in the grave.

Do you believe the bible in its entirety?

 

[Timothew]

you have to admit that you are in a tiny minority here.

OK, I admit it.
Do you admit that we don't determine truth by counting heads?
Are you Catholic? That is the largest denomination boasting 1.2 billion heads. List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So your assertion that death is the state of being dead only invokes thoughts of a conscious afterlife for most of us.

I can't help that! Perhaps you should study your bible more.

Is it possible for you to fathom any other point of view other than your own? Can you see how your arguments appear from any light other than your that of your own personal opinion?

Is is possible for you to have a civil discussion or should I put you back on ignore?

 

[Timothew]

Such hypocrisy! You are the one desperately clinging to the belief that the comma is in the wrong place in every translation of Luke 23:43 other than the JW's. You are the one who desperately avoids the issue of spirit death and how the Bible never speaks of it, even though it speaks plainly of soul death.

I don't think the comma is in the wrong place. I think that there isn't a comma in the original manuscript, and your belief about that verse tells you where to put the comma when it is translated into english.

I don't think it amounts to hypocrisy for me to hold onto the beliefs that I've arrived at after extensive bible study. It seems dishonest to me for someone to insist that apoleia must never be construed as meaning extinction solely to avoid the implication that the destruction of a person actually means the destruction of the person, which would destroy a cherished doctrine that the person holds. (Although why anyone would cherish the doctrine of eternal torture is beyond reasoning!)

That is exactly what is described in Jude 1:13 and Rev 20:10.

It is not! Reread Jude 13 and Rev 20:10. They say nothing like that.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Death does not mean the same thing as eternal torment. Death is the state of being dead, as you have shown.

Torment is something else:
1: the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
2: extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : agony
3: a source of vexation or pain

Can you prove this destruction/death is not slow such that it is not a source of anguish (torment)? I contend destruction/death is a slow process just as the bible equates in Genesis that Adam would die after he ate the apple his death (decay) took close to 1000 years and he suffered (torment) because of the slow death.

 

[Timothew]

Can you prove this destruction/death is not slow such that it is not a source of anguish (torment)? I contend destruction/death is a slow process just as the bible equates in Genesis that Adam would die after he ate the apple his death (decay) took close to 1000 years and he suffered (torment) because of the slow death.

So are you saying that the torment of sin is confined to this side of death? As Adam lived for a number of years before he died as a result of his sin. There is nothing to suggest that Adam suffered at all after he died, as far as I know.

That is an interesting possiblity. This would also explain the Billy Joel song "Only the Good Die young".
The Good would not have to live in suffering as long as in this life as the evil do. Interesting theory, I'll think about it. Do you have more biblical evidence of this?

For now, I will continue in believing the truth that I've received from Paul, "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[Sophrosyne]

You could say anything you wanted, however, that would not make it compatible with the Bible. It is Christ who executes the vengeance of everlasting destruction

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

ev·er·last·ing

   [ev-er-las-ting, -lah-sting] Show IPA
adjective 1. lasting forever; eternal: everlasting future life.

2. lasting or continuing for an indefinitely long time: the everlasting hills.

3. incessant; constantly recurring: He is plagued by everlasting attacks of influenza.

4. wearisome; tedious: She tired of his everlasting puns.


noun 5. eternal duration; eternity: What is the span of one life compared with the everlasting?

6. the Everlasting, God.

7. any of various plants that retain their shape or color when dried, as certain composite plants of the genera Helichrysum, Gnaphalium, and Helipterum.



Everlasting destruction can easily mean that the destruction process is not finite or ending. It supports eternal torment.

 

[Mikecpking]

Can you prove this destruction/death is not slow such that it is not a source of anguish (torment)? I contend destruction/death is a slow process just as the bible equates in Genesis that Adam would die after he ate the apple his death (decay) took close to 1000 years and he suffered (torment) because of the slow death.

I don't think annihilation would be instantaneous, I believe it will come only after God's wrath has been satisfied. There are 2 types of annihilationism, one being instant death and the other after judgement which will mean the unsaved will have their 'gnashing of teeth' before being thrown into the lake of fire.
No one knows exactly how long people will 'burn' before being annihilated, my belief that is upto God and his mercy.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I don't think annihilation would be instantaneous, I believe it will come only after God's wrath has been satisfied. There are 2 types of annihilationism, one being instant death and the other after judgement which will mean the unsaved will have their 'gnashing of teeth' before being thrown into the lake of fire.
No one knows exactly how long people will 'burn' before being annihilated, my belief that is upto God and his mercy.

I don't see a strong scriptural basis to the end of destruction/torment even as much as I truly desire that to happen.
Do you think that annihilation can destroy sin or do you think the only way to destroy sin is on the cross via Jesus sacrifice (and salvation through him).

 

[WillieH]

willlieH: Hi FTM...

Obsessive: Im only responding to you; takes one to think they can see one sometimes Expecially when the pitcure isnt clear:;
Didnt expect much of a response ANYWAY: Man tries to reach high, and yet they are humble by that which is low: May they bow their hearts to God and realize that we dont need glory anyway: God gets the glory; or atleast He should; and my heart is lead to make sure He does; so others can see and not fear the weak words of hard hearted men; words that can be broken to show the true state of the heart;
SO:
Watch out when i pray and come back; SMILE'
I work outside; i go home and i come back; and i pray on it: So dont think its going to be easy just because you THINK you are overstanding me;
doesnt matter one way or the other; i just want those that love JESUS to realize that they dont have to fear expressing that love; the words of men are not that strong:

Let me put it this way...

I am not going to engage in conversation with folks such as yourself and gradyll, in which the Scriptural offerings, points and questions I make are ignored.

I have believed (at one time) ALL of the things you both believe now... and in 35 years through diligent research (which considers word meanings in the original language), have come to see these beliefs held by the MANY (the church in its literally innumerable divisions) are false, ...as CHRIST CLEARLY prophesied them to be -- Matt 24:5 -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 12:25

You must needs travel your own journey (which is ALREADY set in place -- Psalm 90:9 -- Isaiah 46:10) -- and that journey to its DETAIL, ...CANNOT be avoided... for YHVH works ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- not just "some"!

The PURPOSE of YHVH (and the existence of this realm) is largely UNKNOWN to the (divided) church which "comes" in the NAME of CHRIST... and is the very reason, that they and their deeds shall be DISMISSED by Him at His coming.

If truly you SEEK truth FTM, then you shall not just be satisfied and compliant with the surface and peripheral offerings made by MEN, within ANY english (or other lingual) translation (of the HEBREW and GREEK), ...nor in ANY doctrinal presentation (be it church, bible college, conference, revival, ...etc.). Where SINFUL and RELIGIOUS BIAS, abound.


The TRUTH can only be found when the search is done on a PERSONAL BASIS, with the WHOLE HEART -- Jer 29:14 -- by an EMPTY vessel which SEEKS and accepts the FILLING of correction...

Not even ONE which is so FULL of ones own positioning, and are about insisting that others which do not observe as do they, are destined to be cursed and condemned, ...shall be found accepted by Him. NOT ONE.

RELIGION is indeed, the FALSE WITNESS upon the earth... and ALL RELIGIONS (to include Christianity), are to become ASHAMED at His coming.

The MANY (which come in the name of CHRIST) will be very disappointed at the coming of CHRIST -- I, ...will NOT be numbered with them... you are welcome to remain amongst that number.

Whether my present observations are yet in need of correction or not (which I am sure they are, as I learn new things every day), ...I will not be named as part of that grouping (MANY)... you however, are welcome to be in the vert midst of them, if you so choose to be...

Know that I wish you no ill... nor do I make any judgment of you... but also know that you indeed, are in for some very big surprises young FTM...



PEACE

...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Its bad practice to try and make scripture contradict itself. The soul can be killed in the grave.

Hmmm... How might you "Kill" something that is "DEAD"?

The LIVING (for there is no other kind) "SOUL" is a combination of the BODY = DUST + the BREATH of the SPIRIT of GOD -- Gen 3:19 -- Gen2:7 -- John 1:9

The DUST does not of itself in the GRAVE of DEATH, ...possess a "soul"... nor (as I said before) can something which is DEAD, ..."be killed"...

Do you believe the bible in its entirety?

Do you?


Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: HI LM...

Hmmm... The terms Lutheran and mafia are kind of contrary to one another aren't they?

And Matthew 10:28 states clearly that the body can die without the soul dying, and that the soul only dies in hell, not simply at physical death.Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.Matthew 10:28

Matt 10:28 -- says GOD "is able" (for He "is able" to do anything!), it does not imply that He would destroy, just because He "is able" to do so... ... the verse is teaching that RESPECT of that ability is that which must be considered by this saying. IOW this is NOT a THREAT!

What LOVE do you know of that THREATENS its object? Do you do that to your LOVED ones? To THREATEN is to ABUSE.

GOD is LOVE and LOVE ...is in the business of casting OUT FEAR... certainly NOT to embrace it.

LOVE does not impose FEAR upon those LOVED -- (which is the WORLD -- John 3:16-17 -- for LOVE is against FEAR), ...nor does LOVE teach that FEAR should be embraced (also because it is against it) -- 1 John 4:8 -- 1 John 4:18

On the contrary... LOVE is DIVINE SAFETY which OPPOSES and CASTS OUT, ...FEAR... from that which is LOVED.


EXAMPLE --- You could own a GUN that IS ABLE to be used to kill another human being.

Just because the GUN IS ABLE to be used to kill, and that YOU OWN it, does not mean it shall be used to KILL on the basis that it IS ABLE to be used to kill, and that YOU own it.


Peace...

...willieH

 

[Mikecpking]

Hmmm... How might you "Kill" something that is "DEAD"?

The LIVING (for there is no other kind) "SOUL" is a combination of the BODY = DUST + the BREATH of the SPIRIT of GOD -- Gen 3:19 -- Gen2:7 -- John 1:9

The DUST does not of itself in the GRAVE of DEATH, ...possess a "soul"... nor (as I said before) can something which is DEAD, ..."be killed"...




Do you?


Peace...


...willieH

Willie, we are on the same page.

There is no immortality of the soul, 'Soul' has several meanings ; the main being life or the whole living person. It can also mean a 'corpse', in other words a dead soul.

Lutherianmafia thinks he can base the entire meaning and priove soul immortality just on Matt 10:28, but misses the whole meaning that God can wipe out one's very existence even as a corpse to the point of annihilation should God choose to do so.

 

[Mikecpking]

I don't see a strong scriptural basis to the end of destruction/torment even as much as I truly desire that to happen.
Do you think that annihilation can destroy sin or do you think the only way to destroy sin is on the cross via Jesus sacrifice (and salvation through him).

Jesus' sacrifice is enough for all sin, but there are clearly those who won't accept it, or even care. Faith in Christ is what saves, but words like 'perish' and 'death' are there in scripture rather than endless torment (maybe an exception for those who worshipped the beast etc in Rev 14).

Annihilation destroys the individual. I don't see a case for non stop torment when comparing a person who was never saved, but cared about social justice etc and gets the same punishment as the beast, false prophet and the devil.

 

[Truth_Warrior]

Can you prove this destruction/death is not slow such that it is not a source of anguish (torment)? I contend destruction/death is a slow process just as the bible equates in Genesis that Adam would die after he ate the apple his death (decay) took close to 1000 years and he suffered (torment) because of the slow death.

God said Adam would die the very same day and what died was the spiritual connection he had with God.

You might have a point if God said something like"Adam ONE day you will die".

Gen_2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


God said in the very day he eats it he would die.
What died that day?

The spiritual connection,IMHO.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Jesus' sacrifice is enough for all sin, but there are clearly those who won't accept it, or even care. Faith in Christ is what saves, but words like 'perish' and 'death' are there in scripture rather than endless torment (maybe an exception for those who worshipped the beast etc in Rev 14).

Annihilation destroys the individual. I don't see a case for non stop torment when comparing a person who was never saved, but cared about social justice etc and gets the same punishment as the beast, false prophet and the devil.

the problem you have is death and even perish do not in themselves confine the event to an instant action but instead can also convey an ongoing process that "could" take forever. If such process does last longer than an instant then you could easily have torment and if the process occurs outside of time as we know it, it could easily be endless. There is no biblical scripture that proves instant annihilation or that we can even begin to equate time on earth as equivocal to time in the afterlife and Hell/Heaven. One must insist annihilation starts and ends inside time as we know it for it to complete in a finite amount of time (typically instantaneous is demanded) for it to not be of torment. Prove to me that any death/destruction/perishing is instantaneous instead of neverending and that there is no pain or suffering involved.

 

[Satt]

If Jesus truly paid the penalty for sin...
...AND if the wages of sin are eternal torment...
...THEN Jesus should be burning in "Hell" forever.

(The wages of sin is DEATH!)

 

[Sophrosyne]

God said Adam would die the very same day and what died was the spiritual connection he had with God.

You might have a point if God said something like"Adam ONE day you will die".

Gen_2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


God said in the very day he eats it he would die.
What died that day?

The spiritual connection,IMHO.

I can agree the spiritual connection to God was severed but his spirit did not die in itself. Adam slowly died (perished, was destroyed in the flesh) over the next ~1000 years. If you agree this process of death was a result of sin then you will also have to agree if one was allowed to live in the next life with sin upon them (unforgiven via the cross) then they would likewise die, perish, be destroyed applicable to whatever their "new" flesh could allow in whatever time frame and universe conditions are.

 

[Sophrosyne]

If Jesus truly paid the penalty for sin...
...AND if the wages of sin are eternal torment...
...THEN Jesus should be burning in "Hell" forever.

(The wages of sin is DEATH!)

How do you know that Jesus did not somehow receive a does of infinite torment in Hell for our sins to satisfy the father? An infinite being can accomplish infinite tasks in ways our finite logic will never comprehend.