Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Timothew]

So by your chaff definition those annihilated experience burning pain for as long as chaff takes to burn up. If chaff takes one second to burn up on earth and time in heaven runs perhaps 365,000 times slower (a day is like 1000 years) then they would experience torment for about 25 days burning up... correct?

I'd rather not speculate beyond what the bible says.
I appreciate your attempt to reconcile the 2 views, but other than tradition, the eternal torment view doesn't have much much going for it. If eternal torment had not gained the upper hand in the dark ages, would we be "discovering" it by reading our bibles? I don't think we would. Without a preconceived notion of eternal torment, we wouldn't need to redefine death to mean "eternal torment in hell", and destruction to mean "loss of well being in hell", and perish to mean "eternal life in hell."

 

[Sophrosyne]

I'd rather not speculate beyond what the bible says.
I appreciate your attempt to reconcile the 2 views, but other than tradition, the eternal torment view doesn't have much much going for it. If eternal torment had not gained the upper hand in the dark ages, would we be "discovering" it by reading our bibles? I don't think we would. Without a preconceived notion of eternal torment, we wouldn't need to redefine death to mean "eternal torment in hell", and destruction to mean "loss of well being in hell", and perish to mean "eternal life in hell."

I'm sorry... but annihilism does speculate when it claims the high ground over those believing in torment in Hell for ANY length of time. Your example just shows where it falls flat because scriptures you are using to prove destruction over any torment whatsoever MUST prove instantaneous destruction or prove the soul is not able to feel pain during destruction that is not absolutely instant and you have failed to do just that.
To cry foul to those who believe "a loving" God would torment people in the afterlife yet being unable to prove using scriptures (however you use them) that it is an instant and painless process by default puts you in the limited (for a time) torment vs eternal torment camp.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'd rather not speculate beyond what the bible says.
I appreciate your attempt to reconcile the 2 views, but other than tradition, the eternal torment view doesn't have much much going for it. If eternal torment had not gained the upper hand in the dark ages, would we be "discovering" it by reading our bibles? I don't think we would. Without a preconceived notion of eternal torment, we wouldn't need to redefine death to mean "eternal torment in hell", and destruction to mean "loss of well being in hell", and perish to mean "eternal life in hell."

The wineskins are destroyed but still exist....(they are merely marred according to vines dictionary)
Luke 5:37
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish(apoleia).

secondly, apoleia can mean LOST

Things are lost, but still exist

Luke 15:9
And when she has found it, she calls her friends and her neighbors together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost(apoleia).

Luke 15:4
4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose (apoleia) one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost (apoleia), until he find it?

Luke 15:6
6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost (apoleia).

Luke 15:24
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost (apoleia), and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32
32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost (apoleia), and is found.

John 17:12
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost (apoleia), but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


and we all know that Judas still existed, though He was definitely "lost"


other meanings of "destruction"

notice the following verse means you can pluck out your eye (cause it to perish) and not utterly destroy it (the eye still exists).

Matthew 5:29
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish (apoleia), and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Notice in the following verse that a piece of hair can fall out and yet still exist.

Luke 21:18
But there shall not an hair of your head perish (apoleia).

along with this verse

Acts 27:34
34Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall (apoleia) from the head of any of you.

again a hair can fall out and yet still exist, and this is the word for destroy that people are using to say that we "cease to exist"

John 6:27
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth (apoleia), but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

again another instance of loss of "well being" ...meat rots, meat decays, but it never ceases to exist. It simply takes up another form of energy for bacteria or what not.

Thirdly, I gave a definition from a legitimate source stating that Destruction means loss of "well being" not "ceasing to exist"

The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of wellbeing. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4, 6, etc.; the lost son, 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7. So of persons, Matt. 2:13, “destroy”; 8:25, “perish”; 22:7; 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matt. 10:28; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16 (v. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Rom. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:18; 2 Cor. 2:15, “are perishing”; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:10; Jas. 4:12; 2 Pet. 3:9. Cf. B, II,

Vine, W. E. ; Unger, Merrill F. ; White, William: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1996, S. 2:164

and here is another Greek Dictionary that agrees

"Apoleia and the verb apollumi, to destroy , lose, perish , must never be construed as meaning extinction. One dies physically when his spirit and his body separate. Neither the body becomes extinct, nor the spirit. The body decomposes and ceases to exist in the form it was. Its constituent parts, however, continue to exist in a noncohesive form. The spirit takes a new existence, separate from its previous existence joined with the Body. The lost sheep which was wandering away from the shepherd and the rest of the flock is called apololos (Luke 15:4, 6), also the coin which the woman lost (Luke 15:9, apolesa [the aor. of apollumi, to lose]) and the prodigal son who was lost (Luke 15:24, 32), but none of them ceased to exist. They simply were lost to the relationship which they had before and which was desired again by the owner."

Zodhiates Greek Dictionary, 1992, Chattanooga, AMG publishing.

 

[he-man]

de·stroy   [dih-stroi] Show IPA
verb (used with object) 1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.

2. to put an end to; extinguish.

3. to kill; slay.

4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.

5. to defeat completely.
Destroy | Define Destroy at Dictionary.com
Interesting possibilities... such as definition 4 and 5 could allow for something to almost completely remain the same but be "destroyed".

neutralise make ineffective by applying an opposite force or effect. © Oxford University Press, 2004

Of course the word for neutralise is εξουδετερώνω, ουδετεροποιώ

Destroy is destruction ME: from OFr. destruire, based on L. destruct-, destruere, from de- (expressing reversal) + struere 'build'.
© Oxford University Press, 2004

Of course the word for destroy is καταστρέφω, εξοντώνω, εξολοθρεύω, φονεύω

While the word for annihilate is destroy, demolish; exterminate καταστρέφω, εκμηδενίζω

ME: from late L. annihilat-, annihilare 'reduce to nothing'. © Oxford University Press, 2004

From ashes to ashes, from dust to dust

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

some to everlasting life..........
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

 

[createdtoworship]

neutralise make ineffective by applying an opposite force or effect. © Oxford University Press, 2004

Of course the word for neutralise is εξουδετερώνω, ουδετεροποιώ

Destroy is destruction ME: from OFr. destruire, based on L. destruct-, destruere, from de- (expressing reversal) + struere 'build'.
© Oxford University Press, 2004

Of course the word for destroy is καταστρέφω, εξοντώνω, εξολοθρεύω, φονεύω

While the word for annihilate is destroy, demolish; exterminate καταστρέφω, εκμηδενίζω

ME: from late L. annihilat-, annihilare 'reduce to nothing'. © Oxford University Press, 2004

From ashes to ashes, from dust to dust

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

some to everlasting life..........
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

using english dictionaries to define greek words, is useless.

besides annihilation can take seconds, or years, or an eternity to accomplish.

Sophrosyne said
"And nowhere does it say destruction has to be instant. It is quite possible using the definition to say destruction could happen over a long period of time (very slowly) or even be a forever continuous process that never ends. Imagine being annihilated but it takes forever to complete, not an instant like many insist it must... wouldn't this be like torture?"

I agree.

 

[Timothew]

I'm sorry... but annihilism does speculate when it claims the high ground over those believing in torment in Hell for ANY length of time. Your example just shows where it falls flat because scriptures you are using to prove destruction over any torment whatsoever MUST prove instantaneous destruction or prove the soul is not able to feel pain during destruction that is not absolutely instant and you have failed to do just that.
To cry foul to those who believe "a loving" God would torment people in the afterlife yet being unable to prove using scriptures (however you use them) that it is an instant and painless process by default puts you in the limited (for a time) torment vs eternal torment camp.

I wasn't speculating or claiming the "high ground". I was quoting the bible.

The eternal torment side do not say that unbelievers will perish after a time of torment. Their claim is that the torment continues for all eternity. This is a false claim according to the bible, which says that the wages of sin is death, along with all of the prementioned passages referring to destruction.

 

[he-man]

using english dictionaries to define greek words, is useless.

OK how about Greek?

καταστρέφω impair, shake down, decimate, kill, deface, undo, deflower, wreck, blast, destroy, blemish, devastate, blight, do for, mar, ruin, spoil

εξοντώνω destroy, extinguish put out, quench; totally destroy, annihilate

 

[Sophrosyne]

I wasn't speculating or claiming the "high ground". I was quoting the bible.

The eternal torment side do not say that unbelievers will perish after a time of torment. Their claim is that the torment continues for all eternity. This is a false claim according to the bible, which says that the wages of sin is death, along with all of the prementioned passages referring to destruction.

I could say death and destruction are synonymous

death

   [deth] Show IPA
noun 1. the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. Compare brain death.

2. an instance of this: a death in the family; letters published after his death.

3. the state of being dead: to lie still in death.

4. extinction; destruction: It will mean the death of our hopes.

5. manner of dying: a hero's death.

so we are again back to destruction again.. so you are stuck with two choices either deal with torment or prove that the destruction (death) in the bible is instantaneous and not torment otherwise by definition it could easily mean something other that annihilation which can be considered as eternal torment.

 

[Sophrosyne]

using english dictionaries to define greek words, is useless.

besides annihilation can take seconds, or years, or an eternity to accomplish.

Sophrosyne said
"And nowhere does it say destruction has to be instant. It is quite possible using the definition to say destruction could happen over a long period of time (very slowly) or even be a forever continuous process that never ends. Imagine being annihilated but it takes forever to complete, not an instant like many insist it must... wouldn't this be like torture?"

I agree.

Time is something the bible doesn't discuss much when it comes to Heaven and Hell. The only thing I recall was a relating to 1 day is like 1000 elsewhere but even that may not be a given. Time may not exist in Hell at all so you would just be suffering by the moment not really distinguishing the next moment or realizing you have suffered before other than the basis that you remember you previous life before you died and were passed into Hell and torment.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK how about Greek?

καταστρέφω impair, shake down, decimate, kill, deface, undo, deflower, wreck, blast, destroy, blemish, devastate, blight, do for, mar, ruin, spoil

εξοντώνω destroy, extinguish put out, quench; totally destroy, annihilate

there are sixteen greek words for "destruction" but the one most commonly used in passages relating to hell is "apoleia"

which I defined properly in post 243 as a "loss of well being"
"Apoleia and the verb apollumi, to destroy , lose, perish , must never be construed as meaning extinction. One dies physically when his spirit and his body separate. Neither the body becomes extinct, nor the spirit. The body decomposes and ceases to exist in the form it was. Its constituent parts, however, continue to exist in a noncohesive form. The spirit takes a new existence, separate from its previous existence joined with the Body. The lost sheep which was wandering away from the shepherd and the rest of the flock is called apololos (Luke 15:4, 6), also the coin which the woman lost (Luke 15:9, apolesa [the aor. of apollumi, to lose]) and the prodigal son who was lost (Luke 15:24, 32), but none of them ceased to exist. They simply were lost to the relationship which they had before and which was desired again by the owner."
Zodhiates Greek Dictionary, 1992, Chattanooga, AMG publishing.

further more, in the Septuagint translation we find destruction being "apoleia"


Proverbs 15:11
Hell and destruction (apoleia) are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

which CAN also mean a squandering of resources, not extinction.
ἀπώλεια (apōleia), ας (as), ἡ (h&#275: n.fem.; ≡ Str 684; TDNT 1.396—1. LN 20.31 destruction, ruin (Mt 7:13); 2. LN 65.14 waste, needless squandering of a resource (Mt 26:8; Mk 14:4)
Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament). electronic ed. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. DBLG 724, #2

 

[createdtoworship]

Time is something the bible doesn't discuss much when it comes to Heaven and Hell. The only thing I recall was a relating to 1 day is like 1000 elsewhere but even that may not be a given. Time may not exist in Hell at all so you would just be suffering by the moment not really distinguishing the next moment or realizing you have suffered before other than the basis that you remember you previous life before you died and were passed into Hell and torment.

I agree, I believe the soul to be outside of space and time, but that is another topic. But the Bible doesn't really say either way.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I agree, I believe the soul to be outside of space and time, but that is another topic. But the Bible doesn't really say either way.

I don't pretend to understand the soul but it does have a time based connection to us but as for what dimension (physical) it exists in this life I couldn't say. I do think the soul never ends but can perish (similar to how perishable foods are) in Hell forever.

 

[Timothew]

I could say death and destruction are synonymous

death

   [deth] Show IPA
noun 1. the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. Compare brain death.

2. an instance of this: a death in the family; letters published after his death.

3. the state of being dead: to lie still in death.

4. extinction; destruction: It will mean the death of our hopes.

5. manner of dying: a hero's death.

so we are again back to destruction again.. so you are stuck with two choices either deal with torment or prove that the destruction (death) in the bible is instantaneous and not torment otherwise by definition it could easily mean something other that annihilation which can be considered as eternal torment.

Death does not mean the same thing as eternal torment. Death is the state of being dead, as you have shown.

Torment is something else:
1: the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
2: extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : agony
3: a source of vexation or pain

 

[Timothew]

Check this out (Matthew 7:13-14)
Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης ὅτι πλατεῖα καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι’ αὐτῆς·
ὅτι στενὴ ἡ πύλη καὶ τεθλιμμένη ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ζωὴν καὶ ὀλίγοι εἰσὶν οἱ εὑρίσκοντες αὐτήν.
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Jesus is comparing two gates, one leads to life ζωήν and the other leads to destruction ἀπώλειαν. Clearly the usage of apoleian (apoleia) is destruction, the loss of life; not the loss of well being. Two gates, two opposite fates. Life in one, loss of life in the other.

 

[he-man]

I could say death and destruction are synonymous
so we are again back to destruction again.. so you are stuck with two choices either deal with torment or prove that the destruction (death) in the bible is instantaneous and not torment otherwise by definition it could easily mean something other that annihilation which can be considered as eternal torment.

You could say anything you wanted, however, that would not make it compatible with the Bible. It is Christ who executes the vengeance of everlasting destruction

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[createdtoworship]

Check this out (Matthew 7:13-14)
Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης ὅτι πλατεῖα καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι’ αὐτῆς·
ὅτι στενὴ ἡ πύλη καὶ τεθλιμμένη ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ζωὴν καὶ ὀλίγοι εἰσὶν οἱ εὑρίσκοντες αὐτήν.
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Jesus is comparing two gates, one leads to life ζωήν and the other leads to destruction ἀπώλειαν. Clearly the usage of apoleian (apoleia) is destruction, the loss of life; not the loss of well being. Two gates, two opposite fates. Life in one, loss of life in the other.

How do you know that the souls cease to exist? That is a bias that you have without any scriptural support. The Bible is very clear that you can be destroyed and still exist, be annihilated and yet be in existence still. A car is destroyed at a junk yard, but is still in existence.


Greek Dictionaries agree with me, as I have said before...

"Apoleia and the verb apollumi, to destroy , lose, perish , must never be construed as meaning extinction. One dies physically when his spirit and his body separate. Neither the body becomes extinct, nor the spirit. The body decomposes and ceases to exist in the form it was. Its constituent parts, however, continue to exist in a noncohesive form. The spirit takes a new existence, separate from its previous existence joined with the Body. The lost sheep which was wandering away from the shepherd and the rest of the flock is called apololos (Luke 15:4, 6), also the coin which the woman lost (Luke 15:9, apolesa [the aor. of apollumi, to lose]) and the prodigal son who was lost (Luke 15:24, 32), but none of them ceased to exist. They simply were lost to the relationship which they had before and which was desired again by the owner."
Zodhiates Greek Dictionary, 1992, Chattanooga, AMG publishing.

 

[Timothew]

How do you know that the souls cease to exist? That is a bias that you have without any scriptural support. The Bible is very clear that you can be destroyed and still exist, be annihilated and yet be in existence still. A car is destroyed at a junk yard, but is still in existence.


Greek Dictionaries agree with me, as I have said before...

"Apoleia and the verb apollumi, to destroy , lose, perish , must never be construed as meaning extinction. One dies physically when his spirit and his body separate. Neither the body becomes extinct, nor the spirit. The body decomposes and ceases to exist in the form it was. Its constituent parts, however, continue to exist in a noncohesive form. The spirit takes a new existence, separate from its previous existence joined with the Body. The lost sheep which was wandering away from the shepherd and the rest of the flock is called apololos (Luke 15:4, 6), also the coin which the woman lost (Luke 15:9, apolesa [the aor. of apollumi, to lose]) and the prodigal son who was lost (Luke 15:24, 32), but none of them ceased to exist. They simply were lost to the relationship which they had before and which was desired again by the owner."
Zodhiates Greek Dictionary, 1992, Chattanooga, AMG publishing.

You are saying "people who agree with me agree with me."
Other than the tradition of eternal torment, there is no reason to believe that apoleia and apollumi "must never be construed as meaning extinction." Why? Just because if you take the regular meaning of apollumi and apoleia you must reject the standard teaching of eternal torment in hell. That is something you and the others are unwilling to do at any cost.

Apoleias can have the figurative meaning of loss, as in My son was dead, and now he lives, my sheep was dead to me and now he is found, my coin was dead to me and now found. But this figuative language does not negate the actual word in every instance. You intend to say that apoleia can not mean destruction in any case, just because the word is used figuratively in some cases.

Last night my feet were sore, I might say "my dogs are dead."
A dog breeder after a fire might say "my dogs are dead." I don't expect that he means his feet are sore.

 

[he-man]

Greek Dictionaries agree with me, as I have said before...

"Apoleia and the verb apollumi, to destroy , lose, perish , must never be construed as meaning extinction. One dies physically when his spirit and his body separate. Neither the body becomes extinct, nor the spirit. The body decomposes and ceases to exist in the form it was. Its constituent parts, however, continue to exist in a noncohesive form. The spirit takes a new existence, separate from its previous existence joined with the Body. The lost sheep which was wandering away from the shepherd and the rest of the flock is called apololos (Luke 15:4, 6), also the coin which the woman lost (Luke 15:9, apolesa [the aor. of apollumi, to lose]) and the prodigal son who was lost (Luke 15:24, 32), but none of them ceased to exist. They simply were lost to the relationship which they had before and which was desired again by the owner."
Zodhiates Greek Dictionary, 1992, Chattanooga, AMG publishing.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G684 απώλεια, perdition; destruction, casualty, wastage, bereavement, deprivation, loss, wastage[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Απώλεια -ας, η, (fr. απολλυμι to destroy) destruction, ruin, desolation, waste. Greek and English Dictionary by Rev John Groves, June A.D. 1828; Page 85[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Mikecpking]

I agree, I believe the soul to be outside of space and time, but that is another topic. But the Bible doesn't really say either way.

Yes it does. The bible clearly states the nephesh dies at death.

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

Let my nephesh die ...

 

[LutheranMafia]

Yes it does. The bible clearly states the nephesh dies at death.

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

Let my nephesh die ...

And Matthew 10:28 states clearly that the body can die without the soul dying, and that the soul only dies in hell, not simply at physical death.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​