Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Son of Zadok]

The late Sidney Hatch well expressed how twisted is the idea of a just God forever tormenting by fire those who refused to believe in Him:
“A civilized society looks with horror upon the abuse and torture of children or adults. Even where capitalpunishment is practiced, the aim is to implement it as mercifully as possible. Are we to believe then that a holy God—our heavenly Father—is less just than the courts of men? Of course not.”

And the late Swedish Lutheran Bishop John Persone wrote:
“For me it is inexplainable how a person who holds the orthodox view [of eternal torment] can at any time have a glad moment in this life. He is constantly mingling with people whose final destiny will be to be tormented eternally without end…To me it is even more inexplainable that such an ‘orthodox’ person can expect even a happy moment in eternity, when he knows that contemporaneously with his blessed estate continues the endless torment and agony of innumerable millions of the accursed. Can he, if he loves his neighbors as himself, yes, even if he has just a little bit of human love and is not solely a selfish wretch, have even a single happy moment?”


Well said, wouldn’t you agree?

I find myself agreeing with you - from time to time. I am also quite convinced that the “final Judgment” is not about a compassionate, merciful G-d damning or condemning anyone. Rather I see the final judgment as more an expression in full knowledge of consequences and all other things - our deepest desires and concerns.

I believe it is very possible that many will meet with a loving G-d, look straight into heaven and eternity and plead with G-d not to have to live out eternity with the discipline and rigors required of a saint - rather than do so they, will with joy find that G-d has prepared for them a place of less discipline and rigor and more to their liking, enjoyment and pleasure.

Son of Zadok

 

[createdtoworship]

Ya know............just maybe the evil dude is so evil that it takes a bit more time in the oven.
A chicken in the oven takes about an hour but throwthat turkey in and you gotta wait a bit longer.

Post 195

so I asked you for verses, and you said

the verses you want me to quote do not exist.

Post 200

So then your view of the lake of fire fails. And my argument stands that the lake of fire is forever and ever, like it actually says in the text itself. Unless you can come up with another argument to explain why the beast and the false prophet are in the lake of fire for a thousand years...post 194.

The late Sidney Hatch well expressed how twisted is the idea of a just God forever tormenting by fire those who refused to believe in Him:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

who do we believe, Sidney Hatch or Revelation 20:10?

 

[Mikecpking]

Post 195

so I asked you for verses, and you said

Post 200

So then your view of the lake of fire fails. And my argument stands that the lake of fire is forever and ever, like it actually says in the text itself. Unless you can come up with another argument to explain why the beast and the false prophet are in the lake of fire for a thousand years...post 194.




Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

who do we believe, Sidney Hatch or Revelation 20:10?

Says nothing of humankind. These beings have a unique rebellion against God, and they won't be annihilated.

 

[Fulltruthministry]

Good mornign everyone;

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi WoH...

Forgive me, but are you calling the words of G-d worthless and boring? Surely not.

Of course not... and no forgiveness is necessary, ...you have every right to your impressions of what I said, ...and to ask me for further comment on my statement to gradyll...

I am calling the act of CUT & PASTE, which is presented in the guise of a personal knowledge of ones beliefs (even if it is in agreement with that info) ...an invalid presentation, being that which is copied from another which BOTHERED to take time study and gather said information...

The WORD of God is the 2nd MOST precious thing on the earth (albeit in error filled translations into English) and I have EVERY respect for it, and USE it in ALL my posts which address doctrine, or observations of God...

The SPIRITUAL presence of GOD in ALL LIFE on earth and the observable Universe, is PARAMOUNT (as I see it).

Hope that answers your question.


Now I have a question for YOU... ...what is it that prevents you from spelling out the word "God"? = (G-d?)


peaCE...


...willieH

 

[Fulltruthministry]

wiillieH: Hi FTM...

Let's not play cat & mouse, FTM... answer the question. ...in a recent post you were complaining about "wasted words"... and yet you put forth your best effort to AVOID answering my VERY SIMPLE and REASONABLE question?

Answer it, if you are able. In this reply you only display that, in this moment, ...you are NOT ABLE.

Here is what YOU said:

Originally Posted by Fulltruthministry

When you want to have a real conversation or ask a reasonable question; maybe i can enter this conversation with more wisdom in how i speak; because of now; all i hear is people trying to say the same thing different ways; bumping heads; waisting words
​

Now to address your evasive reply:



FIRST --- This is not a REASONABLE answer to my REASONABLE question.

Actually the SCRIPTURES are quite PLAIN as to the VICTORY and completion of the WORK of CHRIST concerning SALVATION... I would be happy to provide you the Scriptures if you are unaware of them! (and it seems very apparent that you are unaware of them)

This sidestep answer, does not address the information given in Scripture concerning the SALVATION of the WORLD... that GOD so (unchangingly) LOVES -- John 3:16

I did NOT ask you if He SAVED YOU, or WHEN He saved YOU...

You have your own personal testimony and opinion as to whether or not you believe you are SAVED... which is essentially centered upon YOURSELF.

My question was:

JESUS was sent to SAVE the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- Did He SUCCEED to SAVE the WORLD? ...or ...Did He FAIL to SAVE the WORLD?


SECOND --- "Flames of JUDGMENT"? Upon what do you base this? GOD's JUDGMENT is SPIRITUAL... are those "flames" literal to you?

LOVE casts OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- those who FEAR, and/or teach and PROMOTE others to FEAR, are NOT at PEACE, nor is their MESSAGE of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- nor are they complete in the LOVE of the Father.




...do you always tiptoe around the point instead of answering it, bro?

Usually one which attempts to give such a VAGUE reply, does not really have a valid answer to the question. Especially since only ONE WORD is required to answer that REASONABLE question.

DID JESUS ...SUCCEED or FAIL to SAVE the WORLD, FTM?

Your observance of the sorrowful condition of the WORLD is not an answer to the question...

Nor do you have any information as to individual experience... for you have YET to DIE... and have NOT been (nor ever will be) present in the Heart of ANYONE who has DIED... so you do NOT KNOW the last moment of the LIFE contained in those hearts, nor what TOOK PLACE in those hearts...

Therefore you can only make a finite, and at best, ...PERIPHERAL SPECULATION as to whether or not another person is SAVED... and NO RIGHT whatsoever (due to YOUR pitifuly limited observance of their life), to JUDGE Salvation concerning them.



Patience is an aspect of WAITING... God does not "WAIT" upon us... we WAIT upon Him...

Yesterday, today and forever are ALL the same to GOD... "Patience" is not an issue with Him. ...however, ...patience is an ISSUE with US.





More of the same dance (tiptoeing)... ...why not "save words" and get to answering my question?

DID He or DID He NOT... SAVE the WORLD? Which was HIS MISSION -- 1 John 4:14 -- Luke 19:10 -- Isaiah 55:11

You almost crack me up as much as gradyll... sleepily sidestepping instead of answering forthright what is asked of you...

Endeavoring to be poetic and/or religiously eloquent, instead of just coming to the point, and answering the questions!

What GOD "wants" will happen... ...bet on it!

2 Pet 3:9 -- notes INTENT (BOULEMA -- #G1014 = unwilling) that NONE PERISH... It is His HOLY INTENT -- Isaiah 55:11 -- which cannot be overridden by FINITE and SINFUL beings, which CENTER upon themselves as having a "will", which might render INERT, the DESIRE or WILL of the ALMIGHTY.

GOD is ALMIGHTY for a reason... and that REASON is that ALL MIGHT is HIS... His WAY is the ONLY WAY that shall prevail...

The steps of ALL MEN are ORDERED by Him -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Isaiah 26:7-8 -- Prov 16:1 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 21:1 -- and ARE NOT in the Hand of MEN...

YE are NOT your own, for YE are BOUGHT with a PRICE -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- 1 Cor 6:19-20 -- ALL MEN are His...

The FATHER YHVH is PARENT to ALL SPIRITS -- Heb 12:9 -- John 1:9

As happens EVERY-DAY in LIFE on earth... A PARENT FIRMLY holds the hand of his child as they cross the busy and LIFE THREATENING street... and the PALTRY strength and ill-informed will of the child WILL tug or oppose that FIRM grip all that it is able... But the INTENT of the PARENT will bring the child (and its LIFE) SAFELY to the other side of the street, irregardless of the child's foolish mindset, and actions it weakly proposes against that safety.


WISDOM... It is right before you FTM, in life... for JESUS (the Salvation of YHVH) is not only IN the WORD, but IN the LIFE as well...



Peace....

...willieH

Wow;
A lot of character attacks in there; REALLY don’t have much to say about this post; will speak on a few things pertaining to Gods Word; NOT MYSELF: Say what you want about me;
So lets pry through your field of mines and character assassinations; and maybe we can find some Word in there; or something REALLY to talk about:




QOUTEfrom willieH
Let's not play cat & mouse, FTM... answer the question. ...in a recent post you were complaining about "wasted words"... and yet you put forth your best effort to AVOID answering my VERY SIMPLE and REASONABLE question?

Answer it, if you are able. In this reply you only display that, in this moment, ...you are NOT ABLE.
END QOUTE

Since the answer was VERY SIMPLE: Why do you expect such a complicated response: Maybe because you excell in confusion; hiding behind the twisted nuances of your words:

And now you want to reply in what you expected me to say; instead of really speaking on what I actually said: SO I C U:
I just don’t play with the mice; I will assume that you THINK your the cat in the game of yours; but I will indulge for the sake of Gods Word in me: and integrity: To expose the tricks of unloving men; that point the finger of peace upon a blade of division: Glory to God





QOUTEfrom WillieH
JESUS was sent to SAVE the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- Did He SUCCEED to SAVE the WORLD? ...or ...Did He FAIL to SAVE the WORLD?

SECOND--- "Flames of JUDGMENT"? Upon what do you base this? GOD's JUDGMENT is SPIRITUAL... are those "flames" literal to you?

LOVE casts OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- those who FEAR, and/or teach and PROMOTE others to FEAR, are NOT at PEACE, nor is their MESSAGE of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- nor are they complete in the LOVE of the Father.
END QOUTE


First lets tip toe through this mine field of confusion, and make it more plain:
I answered the first question the way I was led; OFCOURSE I didn’t follow where you wanted me to go; so you just took of the gloves and went there yourself; EASY TO SEE

The SECOND question: FLAMES of judgment;

THOSE FLAMES ARE LITERAL AND SPIRITUAL: And not as you would want to think; its more literal in the place that you would think it to be spiritual;
THUS: Its spiritual NOW: in our lives; IN JESUS its SPIRITUAL; and YET still made literal by the clean lives that are sanctified in Christ; Is that enough for you:
AND
Its literal in regards to judgment; Rather men except it or not: They shall burn in a literal; spiritual fire:
Even the fire of the Holy Spirit that saves us NOW is literal and spiritual;
Spiritual because it happens in the Spirit:
Literal because it happens: Being that the heart is made clean and purged of sin in Christ:
Lets cont.. wise one of the world:
is that better for you or do you demand for me to see things with your near sight:

cont.......

 

[Fulltruthministry]

QOUTEfrom willieH

Nor do you have any information as to individual experience... for you have YET to DIE... and have NOT been (nor ever will be) present in the Heart of ANYONE who has DIED... so you do NOT KNOW the last moment of the LIFE contained in those hearts, nor what TOOK PLACE in those hearts...
END QOUTE



NOW look at my post again:
I SAID I can not say because I am yet to see Christ reward me with the salvation of my soul;
BUT I said right now;
WE are still being saved from sin:
You can twist your self; but the words are RIGHT THERE: What I said is visible: So you may not be doing this on purpose; but I See what you are doing none the less: We fight not against flesh and blood:

Everything else you said is wash:
I found the lie in your heart
or what you try to twist;

Because I clearly showed according to Gods mercy; that salvation comes to those that endure until the end: I clearly made the distinction to say BUT:

We are still being saved from sin: Search Scripture or strongs like you all tell me; and you will see that Salvation also applies to being saved from our old natures; being reborn; and if we live in that rebirth until the end: YES we are saved: And yes the WHOLE world can live in that salvation; its enough power; most just choose not to:



QOUTEfromWillieH
Therefore you can only make a finite, and at best, ...PERIPHERAL SPECULATION as to whether or not another person is SAVED... and NO RIGHT whatsoever (due to YOUR pitifuly limited observance of their life), to JUDGE Salvation concerning them.
END QOUTE




Now lets look at this trick leading you; and you may not see yourself; but ill show you: First you tried to lead me to speak on the salvation of the world; and when I didn’t, you spoke against me for ducking the question; and Now your heart is led to speak against me as if judged the salvation of others:

SO
FIRST:
I spoke for myself:
THEN:
You said is side stepped where YOU TRIED to lead me: You said speaking for myself wasn’t enough:
And now you judge me for speaking about others: When I clearly didn’t: But to continue on your plan you had to throw that in there; to make me look a certain way:
Wont work:
WHY:
Because I am not here to defend myself; only to lift the word of God;

YOUR LOCKED and loaded; your good at this: But it wont work; GOD SPEAKS for me; at the time I need HIM: C THAT and humble yaself: Blessings

 

[WillieH]

here is a post regarding the nature of Jesus that I personally looked up...

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come , the Almighty.”

Who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8? Only God can be the Almighty right?

Revelation 1:11 “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last”

Who is Alpha and Omega in verse 11? Still God right?....
Note that the First and the Last is the same person as the Alpha and Omega

Revelation 17b-18 “Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever.”

When did God die?




I would say the same thing if I didn't have the answer.



cancer is a hard thing to go through, but I feel you are using it as an excuse to be negligent regarding the scriptures. Maybe you should pray about that.

(my mom recently died of cancer so I know your pain) YOU "KNOW" no such thing... but one day I am certain, ...you WILL!


I sense a lot of bitterness in your voice....maybe you should pray about that too.



I already apologized for that post and you keep bringing it up, are you not willing to forgive? Maybe you should pray about that too. Note: trinity is not in the Bible but "three in one" is in that latest catholic edition 1999 - The Sacred Bible (newest translation of the Catholic Church) includes the "three in one"
1 John - Latin English Study Bible

From Post 139



btw you never responded to my post about this comment

Post 170

You deserve no further answers from me. And you shall reap what you have sown...


Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi TW...

I wish to ask again that we refrain getting this thread off topic

PLEASE!!!!!!

I tried to ask once already and some wish to disregard the rules

READ THE RULES!!!!!

from the rules.....................
"Respect and become familiar with each forum's Statement of Purpose. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose; submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion. Off Topic posts will be moved or removed".

If anyone should follow rules, it is a Christian.

I posted a few posts that were off topic (was responding to an off topic issue..sorry)and have apologized wayyyyyyy back so as to get the thread on topic.

I am amazed.

If you have a topic you wish to discuss that is off topic...start a thread......kinda simple.


Please!!!!!!

Everyone keeps saying they are Christians but yet feel rules apply to everyone else?

Some witness for some unbeliever in search of truth that should wander in and see.

I Love the zeal and commitment many show and respect EVERYONES views and pray daily for EVERY Christian EVERYWHERE and in that prayer I pray we can all be better witnesses for our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless you in the name above all others,Jesus Christ the risen Saviour.

You are quite right... ...I too, apologize for any off-topic posts...

So might we resume, and: "let's talk about hell" ...(which does not even exist! )


Peace...

...willieH

 

[WillieH]

QOUTEfrom willieH

Nor do you have any information as to individual experience... for you have YET to DIE... and have NOT been (nor ever will be) present in the Heart of ANYONE who has DIED... so you do NOT KNOW the last moment of the LIFE contained in those hearts, nor what TOOK PLACE in those hearts...
END QOUTE



NOW look at my post again:
I SAID I can not say because I am yet to see Christ reward me with the salvation of my soul;
BUT I said right now;
WE are still being saved from sin:
You can twist your self; but the words are RIGHT THERE: What I said is visible: So you may not be doing this on purpose; but I See what you are doing none the less: We fight not against flesh and blood:

Everything else you said is wash:
I found the lie in your heart
or what you try to twist;

Because I clearly showed according to Gods mercy; that salvation comes to those that endure until the end: I clearly made the distinction to say BUT:

We are still being saved from sin: Search Scripture or strongs like you all tell me; and you will see that Salvation also applies to being saved from our old natures; being reborn; and if we live in that rebirth until the end: YES we are saved: And yes the WHOLE world can live in that salvation; its enough power; most just choose not to:



QOUTEfromWillieH
Therefore you can only make a finite, and at best, ...PERIPHERAL SPECULATION as to whether or not another person is SAVED... and NO RIGHT whatsoever (due to YOUR pitifuly limited observance of their life), to JUDGE Salvation concerning them.
END QOUTE




Now lets look at this trick leading you; and you may not see yourself; but ill show you: First you tried to lead me to speak on the salvation of the world; and when I didn’t, you spoke against me for ducking the question; and Now your heart is led to speak against me as if judged the salvation of others:

SO
FIRST:
I spoke for myself:
THEN:
You said is side stepped where YOU TRIED to lead me: You said speaking for myself wasn’t enough:
And now you judge me for speaking about others: When I clearly didn’t: But to continue on your plan you had to throw that in there; to make me look a certain way:
Wont work:
WHY:
Because I am not here to defend myself; only to lift the word of God;

YOUR LOCKED and loaded; your good at this: But it wont work; GOD SPEAKS for me; at the time I need HIM: C THAT and humble yaself: Blessings

Please... So, ...You are the "new pope" eh?

Hey -- I told you I was done speaking with you (as even this post EVADES answering the question I asked you)... so as Truth Warrior has noted and asked, a few times...

"Let's talk about hell"... (non-existent fallacy)

Peace...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

Says nothing of humankind. These beings have a unique rebellion against God, and they won't be annihilated.

View Doesn't work. If satan has a "unique rebellion against God" why are humans sent to the same place...

Jesus Christ says in

Matthew 25:41
Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels.

again it says it would be better off that someone had never been born than to reject God

Matthew 26:24b
woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

again it says in the word that ALL those not in the Book of Life are in the lake of fire

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

the same lake of fire where the beast and the prophet were for a thousand years

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

As far as the evidence goes: your view of the lake of fire fails . And my argument stands that the lake of fire is forever and ever, like it actually says in the text above.

Unless you can come up with another argument to explain why the beast and the false prophet are in the lake of fire for a thousand years...post 194.

 

[Fulltruthministry]

willieH: Hi FTM...

You quoted my words:






IF? There is no question as to the meaning of the word JESUS... and shame on you for even supposing it. Be careful bro.



You begin with presuppositions and your conclusion is the fruit of them.

Your focus is upon the FLESH concerning CHRIST, as is your suppositions of Him... and we are instructed no longer to observe Him in this way -- 2 Cor 5:16

GOD is NOT flesh, He is SPIRIT...

JESUS was a (FLESHLY) MAN ...and SCRIPTURE notes this -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- as well as clearly shows He was... as He was TEMPTED, and DIED... 2 MAJOR things that cannot affect GOD.

GOD is EVERLASTING, ...which means that HIS LIFE is without beginning, without end, and UNINTERUPPTED... CONTINUAL -- He IS (unchangingly -- Mal 3:6) the LIVING GOD -- 1 Tim 4:10

When JESUS (the Son of MAN) died... the WORD ...did NOT DIE for it is the LIVING WORD, and the UNCHANGING WORD -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 = The WORD = "YHVH SAVES"

JESUS the MAN did not SAVE anyone... YHVH which dwelt in Him did the "saving". THAT is what I am trying to tell you bro!

The MAN JESUS, died on the cross... a PERFECT and SIN-LESS sacrifice for those who HAVE SINNED.

It (YHVH) withdrew from the MAN in which it dwelt -- Mark 15:34 -- Col 2:9




I have already refuted your belief USING the Scriptures to do so... YOU have offered your "opinion", nothing else.

You stated you are seeking to "learn"... I contest that statement.




FIRST --- More of YOUR WORDS, ...NONE... of His. I have used the WORD in each reply to you, you have not. You therefore stand on YOUR words, and I stand upon HIS... You are welcome to cling to myths if you choose. Does not matter to me.

SECOND --- I did not at all, "pick apart the name"... I have shown the PRAISE within it, by its DEFINITION! ...You have not even bothered to research the meaning of the name JESUS, as you propose above >>> "IF" it means YHVH saves...

THIRD --- I have journeyed for 35 years with GOD, most of it within the ORTHODOX system of the Christian CHURCH (20 yrs w/Salvation Army, and 5 yrs w/7th Day Adventists in MINISTRY capcities)...

And instead of just accepting their doctrines and teachings, I did my own personal research of the WORD. And btw... I have faced DEATH twice in my life... and presently am battling CANCER, so dont preach to me about being "scared"... I am AT PEACE... and the message I bring is PEACE. The SALVATION of ALL MEN! Which is the BEST possible news.

That you are admittedly immersed in your FEAR of the "FLAMES of the JUDGMENT of GOD"... and displays your own lack of PEACE...

FOURTH --- Actually I gave you both the GREEK and HEBREW words which in English are translated JESUS -- (IESOUS #G2424 =greek / YeHoVsHuwa #H3091 = Hebrew)...

In NEITHER of these, did I maintain that there is a "J" in either.

some real characters in here; and you think your wise; but me; im just a young kid that overcame these streets; no education; so sorry if i dont use strongs; not that i cant; but God gets the glory for using foolish things to confound those that profess to be wise in their own selves

Please... Listen to your own words... are you not doing this bro? You have formulated common ORTHODOX beliefs, and REFUSE to look any further? Are you not "professing to be wise in your own self"?

I have not stated or claimed, that "I think I am wise"...

I am a CONFESSED student of the WORD, with MUCH to learn (as it is INFINITE in KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM)...

But I do not abstain from the foolishness of just accepting what others say, and then CALL those things "my beliefs"... I bother to RESEARCH what others claim, and question them, just as I have done with ...YOU!

FIRST --- It is your choice to avoid using tools (such as STRONGS) which could help you, but instead you choose to HINDER any real "research".

You are welcome to try to loosen bolts with your fingers (using your own opinion), ...I, rather choose to use a wrench (using such as strongs, dictionaries, etc.).

SECOND --- As far as "CONFOUNDING" --- How do you find out meanings to words FTM? Do you just HOPE they mean what you "think" they do? Or do you... hypocritically (and secretly) USE a DICTIONARY?

THIRD --- That you are YOUNG and unmoveable, only shows that pride is that which keeps stagnation of learning from you. You say you are trying to learn, yet, you abstain from using tools which shall help in gaining further and/or DEEPER knowledge.


FOURTH --- You claim to be without education and "overcame the streets"... well, ...I graduated from High school. thats it!

And did that @ Olympic & Soto, in the HEART of EAST LOS ANGELES, so please don't preach to me about "the streets"... as if you have overcome something that I have not.


Hey -- your choice, ...do whatever you like, ...it really doesnt matter to me.




Now you "bless me"? ...I thought I was the "BAD GUY"?


pEACE...


...willieH

Peace brother willieH:
I don’t agree with the way you move in this post either: Little things you do are arrogant in my opinion; respectfully; But you indirectly deny the word of God with a leading; not that you do it on purpose; but you indirectly deny Christ: Gods Word: THE WORD:
Lets see for ourselves :




QOUTEfromWillieH
IF? There is no question as to the meaning of the word JESUS... and shame on you for even supposing it. Be careful bro.
END QOUTE



Don’t really understand nor see that in myself: What I do see is you accuse me of things that YOU ARE DOING:
For instance: look at your next QOUTE



QOUTEfromWillieH
You begin with presuppositions and your conclusion is the fruit of them.

Your focus is upon the FLESH concerning CHRIST, as is your suppositions of Him... and we are instructed no longer to observe Him in this way -- 2 Cor 5:16

GOD is NOT flesh, He is SPIRIT...

JESUS was a (FLESHLY) MAN ...and SCRIPTURE notes this -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- as well as clearly shows He was... as He was TEMPTED, and DIED... 2 MAJOR things that cannot affect GOD.
END QOUTE


You say I am focusing on the flesh: But LOOK at YOUR OWN WORDS:
Look at the last thing you said: And your still being bull heading about WHO God is: God is the Son and the FATHER: So if it effected Christ; it effected God:

Lets side step this conversation and TEACH you something, Glory to God

You are hung up on not giving Jesus the Glory of being God; and yet you say I put Christ in the flesh:
I want to ask you-Have you considered this Scripture:

Psalm 45:7
King James Version (KJV)
7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



NOW LOOK that up in strongs; You cant get around it if you depend on Gods Word; This clearly shows JESUS to be GOD; Yet showing that the Father is HIS HEAD:
SO either you are denying the Divinity of Gods Word: Or you are saying that you are above creation; or man:
So you speak from a spirit:
Being that The Father penned His Word as you say: Then the Father referred to the Son as God in Himself; yet still referring to Himself as the Head of the Son by saying: THY GOD:
And yet david as a man:
Still spoke that same word according to Gods breath: Thus the man even called JESUS HIS GOD: And the FATHER IS THE SONS HEAD
Thus you are REALLY trying to get to the Father without going through the Son:
Are you above man that you find it an offense to see Christ as God:
So your spirit is tested and found at a lack; and that lack is love and honor towards the deity and person of Gods Son:
Soak on that; lean on that for a little while:
Cont….



.

 

[Fulltruthministry]

QOUTE
When JESUS (the Son of MAN) died... the WORD ...did NOT DIE for it is the LIVING WORD, and the UNCHANGING WORD -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 = The WORD = "YHVH SAVES"
END QOUTE




YOU SAID: THE word DID NOT die: For it is the living word: So you really don’t see that this WORD died for you; thus you deny this word: But if the word became flesh; and the flesh became subject to death; then the word died; AND YET ROSE to an everlasting life that Was already established; Thus it was proven in Christ; Thus the Word has shown Himself to be Worthy of praise: Thus JESUS is worthy of praise: TRUTH brother: You are not really a Christian: Your just posing; but IF you think you are; then my heart goes out; and I pray that you are allowed to SEE:


QOUTEfromWillieH
JESUS the MAN did not SAVE anyone... YHVH which dwelt in Him did the "saving". THAT is what I am trying to tell you bro!
END QOUTE


So you are telling me that your anti-christ; is that what you are saying?
The Word had to become a man to save the flesh from the flesh: Thus the flesh HAD to die in the flesh to break the contract sin had upon the flesh:
As it is written:
The wages of sin is death: FLESH:
Thus JESUS: GODS WORD: had to become flesh; and die in that flesh; yet without sin: so that IN Him; those that live in the flesh may be set free through His risen Spirit:
So if the word didn’t become flesh; how could the flesh be redeemed from the wage of sin:
Thus He HAD to die without SIN: Now death owes HIM and with His ransom He saves our souls from sin: That’s the gospel of this JESUS you claim to know:




QOUTE
The MAN JESUS, died on the cross... a PERFECT and SIN-LESS sacrifice for those who HAVE SINNED.

It (YHVH) withdrew from the MAN in which it dwelt -- Mark 15:34 -- Col 2:9
END QOUTE


The Father didn’t withdraw the man: The Son of Man had to suffer and die: And Jesus died as the Son of Man and the Son of God: Risen to be proven as the Son of God; risen to set free the sons of men through His death:
Thus we have power to die in the flesh and live by the Spirit:
HEAR THAT
Sorry you spent so long seeking God brother; it really shows that God isn’t found by the might of men; you’ve been seeking as long as ive been alive; and yet I find life in my search because I search not of myself; but rather through that lovely and powerful Word of God; Jesus Christ; my Lord and savior: Everything else you stated; are only personal attacks; not here to defend myself or say who I am or what I have done; fear doenst lead me to that place; fear leads me to love God; and through that love there is no fear; because we know and believe that we shall be saved from that which men fear:
BLESS YOU

 

[Fulltruthministry]

I find myself agreeing with you - from time to time. I am also quite convinced that the “final Judgment” is not about a compassionate, merciful G-d damning or condemning anyone. Rather I see the final judgment as more an expression in full knowledge of consequences and all other things - our deepest desires and concerns.

I believe it is very possible that many will meet with a loving G-d, look straight into heaven and eternity and plead with G-d not to have to live out eternity with the discipline and rigors required of a saint - rather than do so they, will with joy find that G-d has prepared for them a place of less discipline and rigor and more to their liking, enjoyment and pleasure.

Son of Zadok

AMEN
The final judgment also shows me how awful sin really is:
We sit here and judge sin by the things we do; when God judges it by everything we have done; All of our deeds are as filthy rags: SO MAYBE
God wants us to see that sin is so awful; that its punishment; or recompense requires an eternal judgment;
Can a man count His thoughts; WELL God can; and they are all against Him; without Christ its impossible to please God;
Anything that isnt faith is sin:
SO it shows that the fabric of sin MAY be so terrible and continues" That it leads men into an eternal hell: ITS THAT BAD:
We may not see it; BUT GOD KNOWS
And HE cuts us free from its chord:
SO i listen and i live to turn from sin; so that i may live eternal in the God I love; loving the Father for eternity: All because of what was done on the cross by His Son:

All other things are trivial to me; Seek ye first the kingdom
BUT NO" arrogant men would rather study God as if we created God:
Seeking to learn God through their minds, instead of letting God teach their hearts through love; love is learning:
Our own reflection is only made true by the presence of a light; and that light didnt come from men; it came from God; thus we need be restored in that light through that which reflects God; HIS SON: PRAISE HIM BLESS ALL

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi TW...

Back to the topic, as you rightly have suggested!

And btw... great post!

Ya know............just maybe the evil dude is so evil that it takes a bit more time in the oven.

A chicken in the oven takes about an hour but throwthat turkey in and you gotta wait a bit longer.


Kinda seems like a silly analogy but it just hit me so I hit the keys .


I think truly though that the Devil and the Beast are a whole different thing when you put them up against Grandma Maybell who just simply didn't believe and should fry forever,or the Indian born raised and died on the plains before we got to America that never had the opportunity to recieve Christ ,don't you?

This is good and LOGICAL REASON applied by you, TW...

But, ...why should those who are "HELL-bent" on any and everyone but themselves (of course), getting "tortured forever", ...give ear to LOGIC or REASON?

Well... Please know that I agree with these words of yours, ...and they are, SPOT-ON!

The truth concerning "the devil" and "the beast"...is a perception that is a matter of SPIRITUAL vision which will escape the MANY.

Most consider these (beast & devil) to be actual beings (but in truth are SYMBOLIC representations)... but the truth is and WILL BE... other than the MANY -- Matt 24:5 -- Matt 7:22-23 --shall "believe", let alone ..."preach".

Not much sense in taking time to post the "TRUTH" in detail here, as "the MANY" are the lion's share of the audience within this forum.

Instead of truth and reason, the MANY. which are "come in the name of CHRIST".. believe and teach DECEPTION...

So being of the FEW... expect their ridicule and ignorance of your words... while standing strong upon what you KNOW is REASONABLE, LOGICAL and RIGHT... regardless of the SHAME they will attempt to bring upon you.

No verse in the Bible says that the “soul” or “spirit” lives on by itself. No verse says that “hell” is a place of everlasting torment in fire. These falsehoods originated with God’s archenemy, and infiltrated Christianity via mistranslation and the mixing of Greek culture and beliefs with the truths presented in the Word of God.

Again... more valid and LOGICAL words... ...but as I said before, expect those who teach Divine VENGENCE in the stead of DIVINE GRACE (which abounds MUCH MORE than SIN which would be "due" VENGENCE -- Rom 1:20)... To willingly - IGNORE the SPIRITUAL counsel of CHRIST -- Matt 5:38-48 -- and, firmly oppose these words of yours!


pEACe....


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

QOUTE
When JESUS (the Son of MAN) died... the WORD ...did NOT DIE for it is the LIVING WORD, and the UNCHANGING WORD -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 = The WORD = "YHVH SAVES"
END QOUTE




YOU SAID: THE word DID NOT die: For it is the living word: So you really don’t see that this WORD died for you; thus you deny this word: But if the word became flesh; and the flesh became subject to death; then the word died; AND YET ROSE to an everlasting life that Was already established; Thus it was proven in Christ; Thus the Word has shown Himself to be Worthy of praise: Thus JESUS is worthy of praise: TRUTH brother: You are not really a Christian: Your just posing; but IF you think you are; then my heart goes out; and I pray that you are allowed to SEE:


QOUTEfromWillieH
JESUS the MAN did not SAVE anyone... YHVH which dwelt in Him did the "saving". THAT is what I am trying to tell you bro!
END QOUTE


So you are telling me that your anti-christ; is that what you are saying?
The Word had to become a man to save the flesh from the flesh: Thus the flesh HAD to die in the flesh to break the contract sin had upon the flesh:
As it is written:
The wages of sin is death: FLESH:
Thus JESUS: GODS WORD: had to become flesh; and die in that flesh; yet without sin: so that IN Him; those that live in the flesh may be set free through His risen Spirit:
So if the word didn’t become flesh; how could the flesh be redeemed from the wage of sin:
Thus He HAD to die without SIN: Now death owes HIM and with His ransom He saves our souls from sin: That’s the gospel of this JESUS you claim to know:




QOUTE
The MAN JESUS, died on the cross... a PERFECT and SIN-LESS sacrifice for those who HAVE SINNED.

It (YHVH) withdrew from the MAN in which it dwelt -- Mark 15:34 -- Col 2:9
END QOUTE


The Father didn’t withdraw the man: The Son of Man had to suffer and die: And Jesus died as the Son of Man and the Son of God: Risen to be proven as the Son of God; risen to set free the sons of men through His death:
Thus we have power to die in the flesh and live by the Spirit:
HEAR THAT
Sorry you spent so long seeking God brother; it really shows that God isn’t found by the might of men; you’ve been seeking as long as ive been alive; and yet I find life in my search because I search not of myself; but rather through that lovely and powerful Word of God; Jesus Christ; my Lord and savior: Everything else you stated; are only personal attacks; not here to defend myself or say who I am or what I have done; fear doenst lead me to that place; fear leads me to love God; and through that love there is no fear; because we know and believe that we shall be saved from that which men fear:
BLESS YOU

I already told you that I wont respond to your judgmental and ridiculous twistings of what I say...

Get back to the topic...


Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi FTM...

You quoted my words:






IF? There is no question as to the meaning of the word JESUS... and shame on you for even supposing it. Be careful bro.



You begin with presuppositions and your conclusion is the fruit of them.

Your focus is upon the FLESH concerning CHRIST, as is your suppositions of Him... and we are instructed no longer to observe Him in this way -- 2 Cor 5:16

GOD is NOT flesh, He is SPIRIT...

JESUS was a (FLESHLY) MAN ...and SCRIPTURE notes this -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- as well as clearly shows He was... as He was TEMPTED, and DIED... 2 MAJOR things that cannot affect GOD.

GOD is EVERLASTING, ...which means that HIS LIFE is without beginning, without end, and UNINTERUPPTED... CONTINUAL -- He IS (unchangingly -- Mal 3:6) the LIVING GOD -- 1 Tim 4:10

When JESUS (the Son of MAN) died... the WORD ...did NOT DIE for it is the LIVING WORD, and the UNCHANGING WORD -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 = The WORD = "YHVH SAVES"

JESUS the MAN did not SAVE anyone... YHVH which dwelt in Him did the "saving". THAT is what I am trying to tell you bro!

The MAN JESUS, died on the cross... a PERFECT and SIN-LESS sacrifice for those who HAVE SINNED.

It (YHVH) withdrew from the MAN in which it dwelt -- Mark 15:34 -- Col 2:9




I have already refuted your belief USING the Scriptures to do so... YOU have offered your "opinion", nothing else.

You stated you are seeking to "learn"... I contest that statement.




FIRST --- More of YOUR WORDS, ...NONE... of His. I have used the WORD in each reply to you, you have not. You therefore stand on YOUR words, and I stand upon HIS... You are welcome to cling to myths if you choose. Does not matter to me.

SECOND --- I did not at all, "pick apart the name"... I have shown the PRAISE within it, by its DEFINITION! ...You have not even bothered to research the meaning of the name JESUS, as you propose above >>> "IF" it means YHVH saves...

THIRD --- I have journeyed for 35 years with GOD, most of it within the ORTHODOX system of the Christian CHURCH (20 yrs w/Salvation Army, and 5 yrs w/7th Day Adventists in MINISTRY capcities)...

And instead of just accepting their doctrines and teachings, I did my own personal research of the WORD. And btw... I have faced DEATH twice in my life... and presently am battling CANCER, so dont preach to me about being "scared"... I am AT PEACE... and the message I bring is PEACE. The SALVATION of ALL MEN! Which is the BEST possible news.

That you are admittedly immersed in your FEAR of the "FLAMES of the JUDGMENT of GOD"... and displays your own lack of PEACE...

FOURTH --- Actually I gave you both the GREEK and HEBREW words which in English are translated JESUS -- (IESOUS #G2424 =greek / YeHoVsHuwa #H3091 = Hebrew)...

In NEITHER of these, did I maintain that there is a "J" in either.

some real characters in here; and you think your wise; but me; im just a young kid that overcame these streets; no education; so sorry if i dont use strongs; not that i cant; but God gets the glory for using foolish things to confound those that profess to be wise in their own selves


Peace brother willieH:
I don’t agree with the way you move in this post either: Little things you do are arrogant in my opinion; respectfully; But you indirectly deny the word of God with a leading; not that you do it on purpose; but you indirectly deny Christ: Gods Word: THE WORD:
Lets see for ourselves :




QOUTEfromWillieH
IF? There is no question as to the meaning of the word JESUS... and shame on you for even supposing it. Be careful bro.
END QOUTE



Don’t really understand nor see that in myself: What I do see is you accuse me of things that YOU ARE DOING:
For instance: look at your next QOUTE



QOUTEfromWillieH
You begin with presuppositions and your conclusion is the fruit of them.

Your focus is upon the FLESH concerning CHRIST, as is your suppositions of Him... and we are instructed no longer to observe Him in this way -- 2 Cor 5:16

GOD is NOT flesh, He is SPIRIT...

JESUS was a (FLESHLY) MAN ...and SCRIPTURE notes this -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- as well as clearly shows He was... as He was TEMPTED, and DIED... 2 MAJOR things that cannot affect GOD.
END QOUTE


You say I am focusing on the flesh: But LOOK at YOUR OWN WORDS:
Look at the last thing you said: And your still being bull heading about WHO God is: God is the Son and the FATHER: So if it effected Christ; it effected God:

Lets side step this conversation and TEACH you something, Glory to God

You are hung up on not giving Jesus the Glory of being God; and yet you say I put Christ in the flesh:
I want to ask you-Have you considered this Scripture:

Psalm 45:7
King James Version (KJV)
7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



NOW LOOK that up in strongs; You cant get around it if you depend on Gods Word; This clearly shows JESUS to be GOD; Yet showing that the Father is HIS HEAD:
SO either you are denying the Divinity of Gods Word: Or you are saying that you are above creation; or man:
So you speak from a spirit:
Being that The Father penned His Word as you say: Then the Father referred to the Son as God in Himself; yet still referring to Himself as the Head of the Son by saying: THY GOD:
And yet david as a man:
Still spoke that same word according to Gods breath: Thus the man even called JESUS HIS GOD: And the FATHER IS THE SONS HEAD
Thus you are REALLY trying to get to the Father without going through the Son:
Are you above man that you find it an offense to see Christ as God:
So your spirit is tested and found at a lack; and that lack is love and honor towards the deity and person of Gods Son:
Soak on that; lean on that for a little while:
Cont….

Obsessive aren't you? Youth and ignorance are often prone to this... ...you do not deserve a reply from me, so you shall not have one.

Get back to the TOPIC... (if you are able)...

Peace...


...willieH

 

[Fulltruthministry]

willieH: Hi FTM...

You quoted my words:






IF? There is no question as to the meaning of the word JESUS... and shame on you for even supposing it. Be careful bro.



You begin with presuppositions and your conclusion is the fruit of them.

Your focus is upon the FLESH concerning CHRIST, as is your suppositions of Him... and we are instructed no longer to observe Him in this way -- 2 Cor 5:16

GOD is NOT flesh, He is SPIRIT...

JESUS was a (FLESHLY) MAN ...and SCRIPTURE notes this -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- as well as clearly shows He was... as He was TEMPTED, and DIED... 2 MAJOR things that cannot affect GOD.

GOD is EVERLASTING, ...which means that HIS LIFE is without beginning, without end, and UNINTERUPPTED... CONTINUAL -- He IS (unchangingly -- Mal 3:6) the LIVING GOD -- 1 Tim 4:10

When JESUS (the Son of MAN) died... the WORD ...did NOT DIE for it is the LIVING WORD, and the UNCHANGING WORD -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 = The WORD = "YHVH SAVES"

JESUS the MAN did not SAVE anyone... YHVH which dwelt in Him did the "saving". THAT is what I am trying to tell you bro!

The MAN JESUS, died on the cross... a PERFECT and SIN-LESS sacrifice for those who HAVE SINNED.

It (YHVH) withdrew from the MAN in which it dwelt -- Mark 15:34 -- Col 2:9




I have already refuted your belief USING the Scriptures to do so... YOU have offered your "opinion", nothing else.

You stated you are seeking to "learn"... I contest that statement.




FIRST --- More of YOUR WORDS, ...NONE... of His. I have used the WORD in each reply to you, you have not. You therefore stand on YOUR words, and I stand upon HIS... You are welcome to cling to myths if you choose. Does not matter to me.

SECOND --- I did not at all, "pick apart the name"... I have shown the PRAISE within it, by its DEFINITION! ...You have not even bothered to research the meaning of the name JESUS, as you propose above >>> "IF" it means YHVH saves...

THIRD --- I have journeyed for 35 years with GOD, most of it within the ORTHODOX system of the Christian CHURCH (20 yrs w/Salvation Army, and 5 yrs w/7th Day Adventists in MINISTRY capcities)...

And instead of just accepting their doctrines and teachings, I did my own personal research of the WORD. And btw... I have faced DEATH twice in my life... and presently am battling CANCER, so dont preach to me about being "scared"... I am AT PEACE... and the message I bring is PEACE. The SALVATION of ALL MEN! Which is the BEST possible news.

That you are admittedly immersed in your FEAR of the "FLAMES of the JUDGMENT of GOD"... and displays your own lack of PEACE...

FOURTH --- Actually I gave you both the GREEK and HEBREW words which in English are translated JESUS -- (IESOUS #G2424 =greek / YeHoVsHuwa #H3091 = Hebrew)...

In NEITHER of these, did I maintain that there is a "J" in either.




Obsessive aren't you? Youth and ignorance are often prone to this... ...you do not deserve a reply from me, so you shall not have one.

Get back to the TOPIC... (if you are able)...

Peace...


...willieH

Obsessive: Im only responding to you; takes one to think they can see one sometimes Expecially when the pitcure isnt clear:;
Didnt expect much of a response ANYWAY: Man tries to reach high, and yet they are humble by that which is low: May they bow their hearts to God and realize that we dont need glory anyway: God gets the glory; or atleast He should; and my heart is lead to make sure He does; so others can see and not fear the weak words of hard hearted men; words that can be broken to show the true state of the heart;
SO:
Watch out when i pray and come back; SMILE'
I work outside; i go home and i come back; and i pray on it: So dont think its going to be easy just because you THINK you are overstanding me;
doesnt matter one way or the other; i just want those that love JESUS to realize that they dont have to fear expressing that love; the words of men are not that strong:

 

[Fulltruthministry]

Good night everyone: Forgive me if i come across like ive been here for some time; i can only be who God made me to be;
The dept of emnity can show the hight of love:
So brother i only speak to you that way out of love and concern: Keep me in prayer for the good; Bless all

 

[Truth_Warrior]

Scripture most certainly does speak of a place of fire where wicked people will be “punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess. 1:9).

This is gehenna, a Greek word that the Gospel writers used in reference to what is elsewhere called “the lake of fire.” It is significant that not only wicked people will be destroyed there, but also “death and the grave” will be forever exterminated (see Rev. 20:12-15).


Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew “valley of Hinnom,” which was the city dump outside of Jerusalem. When Jesus used this word to refer to the place of the future destruction of the wicked (e.g., Matt. 10:28—still erroneously translated as “hell” even in modern Bible versions), all who heard him knew exactly what he meant. As the note on Matthew 5:22 in the NIV Study Bible says:


“The Greek word is gehenna, which derives its name from a deep ravine south of Jerusalem, the ‘valley of Hinnom.’ During the reigns of the wicked Ahaz and Manasseh, human sacrifices to the Ammonite god Molech were offered there. Josiah desecrated the valley because of the pagan worship there (2 Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:6). It became a sort of perpetually burning city dump and later a figure for the place of final punishment.”

The lake of fire is also called “the second death” (Rev. 21:8). What does that mean? Gods Word clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ will raise from the dead everyone who has ever lived, and that “those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:29).

Pending that Adolph Hitler or Saddam Hussein had no “deathbed conversion,” they will one day face the Lord Jesus to account for their evil ways, and after that be cast into the lake of fire to be annihilated. They died once physically, and they will “die” again—forever out of existence.


Do you think that those listening to Jesus speak of the wicked burning in gehenna thought he meant they would burn forever?

Of course not, because they knew that the garbage they took to the city dump did not continue to exist in the fire without being consumed. Rather, it burned up, and was gone.

Jesus used the word gehenna to illustrate that the wicked were like the garbage, refuse worthy only of destruction. The only reason the fire continued to burn was because the whole city kept throwing their garbage there. Likewise, when it has done its job, the lake of fire will be no more.

If Revelation 20:10 is coming to your mind as an apparent contradiction to whatI have said thus far, that’s great—it should.

It speaks of the Devil and a couple of his henchman being thrown in the lake of fire and being “tormented day and night forever and ever.”

However, the Bible was not written in English, and when we dig a little deeper, we see that “forever and ever” in the Greek is more accurately “for ages unto ages.”(please study this for yourself)

In keeping with God’s decree in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would eventually “crush the head” of the Devil (that is, destroy him), Ezekiel 28:18 declares that the Devil will be “brought to ashes.” Apparently, as a fitting recompense for his monstrous evil, this will take a long time.


When you take a single verse to prove a point and disregard the rest of Gods Word its far too easy to be in error.