Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[WillieH]

At least I have a school of people that believe the same,

That is the whole point, gradyll! You rely on the fact that others "believe" as you do and then use that number as a validation! If a million or billion or trillion people believe a LIE, the number believing does not affect the state of the FALSEHOOD those MANY "believe"...

I do not seek "followers"! I AM a follower of CHRIST and what the WORD SAYS... not what some man-erected program or school, has arranged!

you have no followers no comprehenders, no anything. You are all alone in your made up superstitions.

FIRST --- My beliefs are Scripturally verified, and AGREE with REASON and LOVE...


SECOND --- I do not need or seek "followers"... I recommend TRUTH to those who are seeking... I do not "lead" a following... for I am a FOLLOWER myself.


THIRD --- there are MANY, even on THIS forum which "comprehend" what I post. Just because YOU do not "comprehend", does not mean that everyone else does not. ...GOD decides WHO shall know WHAT, and WHEN they shall "know" it...

superstition:

where the science of logical analysis has died.

Thanks for this admission, as your doctrines of "HELL" and "ETERNAL TORMENT" -- (especially emergent from a GOD which claims to not only LOVE those in this WORLD -- John 3:16 -- but claims to be LOVE itself -- 1 John 4:8) -- do not in ANY WAY agree with REASON (which IS that which IS LOGICAL)... and by your own words is reduced to SUPERSTITION!

And included in your DEFINITION is the state of the DEATH of YOUR "SUPERSTITIOUS" beliefs which the application of LOGIC (REASON), rejects...


It is past time for you to:

PROVE that "satan" is a BEING... If you cannot, then it is YOU which embraces "superstition"...

Not only that, but YOU propose to the WORLD, that GOD (who claims that He is LOVE itself -- 1 John 4:8 ) ...has created a place ("HELL") where the VAST MAJORITY of Humanity shall FOREVER be MERCILESSLY, UNJUSTLY ("crime dont fit the time"), UNLOVINGLY, ...TORMENTED... in a degree which SO FAR EXCEEDS the doings of HITLER, that HITLER was "KIND" by comparison!

And YOU think THIS folly is "ALIGNED" with LOVE and LOGIC? ...not a chance!


If anything, such thinking is ALIGNED with LUNACY and TYRANNY which is HEINOUS above ANY concieveable comparison... MOST certainly NOT aligned with any attribute of LOVE or LOGIC -- 1 Cor 13:1-13

Show us which part of this passage describing LOVE, includes "HELL or ETERNAL TORMENT" of LOVED ones...


YOU are the one "superstitious" bro... not me! As the death of LOGIC is that which is FOUND in your beliefs... ..believing in INVISIBLE demons which haunt your life and mind... by HOLDING your in your PRISON of FEAR... which can and will be CAST OUT by LOVE, if you should lend yourself and your WHOLE HEART, to LOVE instead of FEAR -- 1 John 4:18

If satan does not exist as a being how is it that he offered the kingdoms of this world to Jesus and He did not question that satan actually had all the kingdoms of this world. A force cannot own kingdoms.

FIRST -- No "being" makes suggestion to YOU of the misbehaviors you have indulged in... They are originated in the ADVERSITY of YOUR FLESH and in your own HEART, ...in which SIN DWELLS as PAUL so aptly witnessed of himself -- Rom 7:23 -- Are YOU greater than PAUL, gradyll? Does EVIL work differently with PAUL than with YOU?

Don't you see the "invisible" being that prompts you to do evil is not external of yourSELF? Of course you don't! You need someone to blame OTHER than YOURSELF... so you and many others "create" a NON-EXISTENT entity, call that "entity" satan, and then all is well? Please.


SECOND -- It is quite ILLOGICAL, that GOD would throw ... the MEANEST, UGLIEST, MOST POWERFUL "being" aside from Himself, into the "PLAYPEN" of Adam and Eve (the GARDEN)... and DECIDED not mention to His CHILDREN, the presence of this MEAN "being" to the "newborns"... just let them in their innocence, try to DEAL with this immensely powerful and ancient being? ...not to mention, casting the MYRIADS of other DEMONS into this Garden which YHVH called -- VERY GOOD -- Gen 1:31

THAT, sounds "logical" to you? ...really?

Looking down upon the Creation, He had just made, and observing the scenario in which He had ALSO, ...cast "satan" (a supposed ANCIENT and POWERFUL being, not to mention "his" innumerble "EVIL" counterparts which are ALL INVISIBLE), and KNEW ahead of time the 2 "NEWBORNS"... would have to "deal" with these INNUMERABLE and POWERFUL "beings", but gave these innocents, NO WARNING whatsoever of their presence, ...and then had the AUDACITY to name this "scenario" He had created, as "VERY GOOD"?

Are you kidding me, gradyll?

Now THAT is IDIOCY in its LARGEST possible FORM, ...born of an UNRESEARCHED and ILLOGICAL observation and deduction... which INDEED is what YOU in your practiced following of "NUMERICAL safety", therefore embrace! Contrary to ANY ASPECT of LOGIC, LOVE or JUSTICE...

Like taking your newborn JEWISH twins, and HIRING HITLER as their "babysitter"! ...How LESS than REASONABLE is this scenario? WAY too unreasonable to attach to the ALMIGHTY, ...THAT... is for SURE!

You have (as is your method of operation concerning the Bible) made a SURFACE and FLESHLY, and LITERAL observation of a term found in SPIRITUAL texts... and in that CARNAL approach deduce, that "satan" is a "HE"...

The Greek word AUTOS to which you refer (translated "he" in temptation of CHRIST), can mean any of these pronouns: ...he, she, IT, them, they, him, her, etc... and it is the TRANSLATOR that makes application... via his/her own deduction of the text.

AUTOS alone does not SPECIFICALLY name which meaning is applied.

AUTOS can as readily be an "IT", as a "HE", unless the text SPECIFICALLY BEFOREHAND has identified a gender to the subject...

IOW... prior to the word AUTOS, a MALE has been identified in the text. (btw... the WORD implies that "angels" have no gender -- Matt 22:30 -- so even if "satan" were a "fallen angel", the pronoun "he" is an incorrect application of AUTOS as "Angels" neither MARRY or are given in marriage... as they need no reproductive gender, nor reason to procreate which is the purpose of gender.)

Gender concerning "satan" is NOT the case in the TEMPTATION of CHRIST... Only the term "satan" is used in this scenario... which word HAS a specific MEANING, but does NOT indicate a specific GENDER.

Matt 16:23 --- The Apostle PETER was actually NAMED "satan" by CHRIST... is therefore Peter, "satan" deduced by you as "satan"in human form, gradyll? And if not, WHY NOT? For no OTHER "BEING" is addressed as "satan" in Scripture!

What did CHRIST note after calling Peter "satan"? Did He not NOTE that Peter SAVORED the things of MEN (which are sinners, in ADVERITY to the COMMAND of God)?

Get REAL!

What does the word "satan" really mean, gradyll? Do you even know?

Have you bothered at all to research the meaning of this HEBREW term?

The meaning of the Hebrew word "satan" is ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY. YOUR FLESH is your "adversary", gradyll... not some invisible, inaudible "red guy" with a "pitchfork"! ...which prompts you INAUDIBLY and INVISIBLY, to do EVIL!

The Hebrew word "satan" is NOT a "proper name"... Nor does it require CAPITALIZATION... in fact... there is no "CAPTIALIZATION" done in the original language of this word.



A few FACTS (not scientific theories) about the Hebrew word... "satan":


1. "satan" appears only 19 total times in the ENTIRE OT... of which 14 of those appearances are found in ONE BOOK = JOB... Leaving only 5 other mentions of this word to be found in the balance of the SCRIPTURES...

Whattupwidat? ...The MOST important and MAJOR "entity" aside from GOD Himself, which WE are to deal with in this life, is literally... ABSENT in the OT portion of the WORD? ...WHY? I'll tell you why... because IT is not an "ENTITY".


2. The word "satan" does not even appear even ONCE in the TORAH! Not ONCE! WHY? The TORAH is the most SACRED of all Jewish writings... yet there is NOT ONE MENTION of "satan" at ALL in them. WHY?

Why not put your LOGIC "HAT" on for just a moment, and ask yourself ---

WHY is this EVIL "entity" left out of the very FOUNDATION (TORAH) of YHVH'S WORD? And WHY would YHVH withhold this from MAN, ...by making man deal with BY FAR, the MOST dangerous "being" in the entire HISTORY of dangerous "beings"? I say because "satan" is not a being at all...

Would YOU send your INNOCENT children which you DEARLY LOVE, ...into a "FENCED YARD" ...containing INNUMERABLE INVISIBLE PREDATORS which YOU placed in the "YARD"... and then be SILENT about their PRESENCE in the "YARD", gradyll? Is that your idea of the doings of LOVE?

NOW THAT ...is something that FAILS to make ANY sense at all!


3. YHVH GOD did not warn Adam of any INVISIBLE creature called "satan" and INNUMERABLE other INVISIBLE creatures, ...that were ALSO in the Garden...

And if indeed there was such a creature (or "creatures")... Then it is not completely UNFAIR that GOD WITHHELD VITAL information from Adam concerning their "presence"... at the VERY least WARNING them of these "creatures"?

You have obviously done so little research on your surface observation... and instead, rely on the testimony of LIKE believers to found your beliefs as TRUE, instead of researching for YOURSELF, the things of the Holy WORD...

Not only on this subject, but in its connection to other subjects in that WORD...

Enough... maybe some ears will have HEARD... you shall generalize and avoid what I have said... because your LOVE for TRADITION is too great, far greater than your LOVE to LEARN...

PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

green italics to those things in this post that deserved a reply:

what is the form of satan then? A buzzing sound in your ear? A vibration in the magnetic forces of the universe? Sounds like a fantasy tale more than it does the Bible.

Prove from the scriptures that satan is not a being, I have already done so... and YOU have IGNORED, the only BEING ever noted in Scripture, as "satan" was the Apostle Peter, by CHRIST!... and prove that the world is the lake of fire. You are the one, after all...making these obsurd pontifications from your mouth. Vile and lacking in truth. Satan is no doubt the source of these truths, because you offer no biblical exegesis. Do you even know what exegesis is? It's not mythologizing all of the scripture as your own personal diary of thoughts and taking Gods word literally for God's true word. I would try to explain hermeneutics to you, but you would not understand it anyway. Talking to you is like talking to a naughty child. You offer no truth to anything you say, and yet you spout out more and more. You never stop with your fantasies and exaggerations. SO says the Pharisee which deserves no answer... Do you even believe in the organized church? NO it is Unbiblical anyway -- Do you ever even attend the service of the Lord? -- NO, but did for 25 years -- church does not SAVE you, CHRIST does... I worship EVERY DAY -- Or do you not keep the sabbath holy? YES... BUT do you even KNOW what the Sabbath IS? ...IT is not ON a day, IT is IN a DAY ... and btw that DAY is NOT "SUNDAY" -- Do you ever go to church, ever...willie? -- Why should I? ...Only sorrowful blasphemies are taught in those SEVERALLY DIVIDED institutions...

Peace, may the Lord be with you.

(there, I said peace at the end of a post now you can not ever tell me I never said anything loving)

thats the extend of the love you offer others btw,

Thank you for the wish of PEACE... you almost made it appear you were starting to LEARN!

Too bad you disingenuously tainted the offering of PEACE, with a negative (and untruthful) comment... ...which made your offering of PEACE, sound SUPERFICIAL...

baby steps bro, baby steps...



You FEAR "satan" because you do not even know what "satan" is, gradyll...


Which TO YOU, is an INVISIBLE, INAUDIBLE... EVIL GHOST which is FEARED...


And which is TO ME, ...The principality of ADVERSITY within all men which are adverse, defiant and disobedient to the COMMAND of GOD...

Failing to be in contact with the perfect LOVE of YHVH which has cast out the FALSE FEAR of this non-existent being...

YOU remain within the grip of its torment... while said "torment" and "fear" were long ago, cast away from my life.


PEACE...

...willi
eH

 

[createdtoworship]

That is the whole point, gradyll! You rely on the fact that others "believe" as you do and then use that number as a validation! If a million or billion or trillion people believe a LIE, the number believing does not affect the state of the FALSEHOOD those MANY "believe"...

I do not seek "followers"! I AM a follower of CHRIST and what the WORD SAYS... not what some man-erected program or school, has arranged!



FIRST --- My beliefs are Scripturally verified, and AGREE with REASON and LOVE...


SECOND --- I do not need or seek "followers"... I recommend TRUTH to those who are seeking... I do not "lead" a following... for I am a FOLLOWER myself.


THIRD --- there are MANY, even on THIS forum which "comprehend" what I post. Just because YOU do not "comprehend", does not mean that everyone else does not. ...GOD decides WHO shall know WHAT, and WHEN they shall "know" it...




Thanks for this admission, as your doctrines of "HELL" and "ETERNAL TORMENT" -- (especially emergent from a GOD which claims to not only LOVE those in this WORLD -- John 3:16 -- but claims to be LOVE itself -- 1 John 4:8) -- do not in ANY WAY agree with REASON (which IS that which IS LOGICAL)... and by your own words is reduced to SUPERSTITION!

And included in your DEFINITION is the state of the DEATH of YOUR "SUPERSTITIOUS" beliefs which the application of LOGIC (REASON), rejects...


It is past time for you to:

PROVE that "satan" is a BEING... If you cannot, then it is YOU which embraces "superstition"...

Not only that, but YOU propose to the WORLD, that GOD (who claims that He is LOVE itself -- 1 John 4:8 ) ...has created a place ("HELL") where the VAST MAJORITY of Humanity shall FOREVER be MERCILESSLY, UNJUSTLY ("crime dont fit the time"), UNLOVINGLY, ...TORMENTED... in a degree which SO FAR EXCEEDS the doings of HITLER, that HITLER was "KIND" by comparison!

And YOU think THIS folly is "ALIGNED" with LOVE and LOGIC? ...not a chance!


If anything, such thinking is ALIGNED with LUNACY and TYRANNY which is HEINOUS above ANY concieveable comparison... MOST certainly NOT aligned with any attribute of LOVE or LOGIC -- 1 Cor 13:1-13

Show us which part of this passage describing LOVE, includes "HELL or ETERNAL TORMENT" of LOVED ones...


YOU are the one "superstitious" bro... not me! As the death of LOGIC is that which is FOUND in your beliefs... ..believing in INVISIBLE demons which haunt your life and mind... by HOLDING your in your PRISON of FEAR... which can and will be CAST OUT by LOVE, if you should lend yourself and your WHOLE HEART, to LOVE instead of FEAR -- 1 John 4:18




FIRST -- No "being" makes suggestion to YOU of the misbehaviors you have indulged in... They are originated in the ADVERSITY of YOUR FLESH and in your own HEART, ...in which SIN DWELLS as PAUL so aptly witnessed of himself -- Rom 7:23 -- Are YOU greater than PAUL, gradyll? Does EVIL work differently with PAUL than with YOU?

Don't you see the "invisible" being that prompts you to do evil is not external of yourSELF? Of course you don't! You need someone to blame OTHER than YOURSELF... so you and many others "create" a NON-EXISTENT entity, call that "entity" satan, and then all is well? Please.


SECOND -- It is quite ILLOGICAL, that GOD would throw ... the MEANEST, UGLIEST, MOST POWERFUL "being" aside from Himself, into the "PLAYPEN" of Adam and Eve (the GARDEN)... and DECIDED not mention to His CHILDREN, the presence of this MEAN "being" to the "newborns"... just let them in their innocence, try to DEAL with this immensely powerful and ancient being? ...not to mention, casting the MYRIADS of other DEMONS into this Garden which YHVH called -- VERY GOOD -- Gen 1:31

THAT, sounds "logical" to you? ...really?

Looking down upon the Creation, He had just made, and observing the scenario in which He had ALSO, ...cast "satan" (a supposed ANCIENT and POWERFUL being, not to mention "his" innumerble "EVIL" counterparts which are ALL INVISIBLE), and KNEW ahead of time the 2 "NEWBORNS"... would have to "deal" with these INNUMERABLE and POWERFUL "beings", but gave these innocents, NO WARNING whatsoever of their presence, ...and then had the AUDACITY to name this "scenario" He had created, as "VERY GOOD"?

Are you kidding me, gradyll?

Now THAT is IDIOCY in its LARGEST possible FORM, ...born of an UNRESEARCHED and ILLOGICAL observation and deduction... which INDEED is what YOU in your practiced following of "NUMERICAL safety", therefore embrace! Contrary to ANY ASPECT of LOGIC, LOVE or JUSTICE...

Like taking your newborn JEWISH twins, and HIRING HITLER as their "babysitter"! ...How LESS than REASONABLE is this scenario? WAY too unreasonable to attach to the ALMIGHTY, ...THAT... is for SURE!

You have (as is your method of operation concerning the Bible) made a SURFACE and FLESHLY, and LITERAL observation of a term found in SPIRITUAL texts... and in that CARNAL approach deduce, that "satan" is a "HE"...

The Greek word AUTOS to which you refer (translated "he" in temptation of CHRIST), can mean any of these pronouns: ...he, she, IT, them, they, him, her, etc... and it is the TRANSLATOR that makes application... via his/her own deduction of the text.

AUTOS alone does not SPECIFICALLY name which meaning is applied.

AUTOS can as readily be an "IT", as a "HE", unless the text SPECIFICALLY BEFOREHAND has identified a gender to the subject...

IOW... prior to the word AUTOS, a MALE has been identified in the text. (btw... the WORD implies that "angels" have no gender -- Matt 22:30 -- so even if "satan" were a "fallen angel", the pronoun "he" is an incorrect application of AUTOS as "Angels" neither MARRY or are given in marriage... as they need no reproductive gender, nor reason to procreate which is the purpose of gender.)

Gender concerning "satan" is NOT the case in the TEMPTATION of CHRIST... Only the term "satan" is used in this scenario... which word HAS a specific MEANING, but does NOT indicate a specific GENDER.

Matt 16:23 --- The Apostle PETER was actually NAMED "satan" by CHRIST... is therefore Peter, "satan" deduced by you as "satan"in human form, gradyll? And if not, WHY NOT? For no OTHER "BEING" is addressed as "satan" in Scripture!

What did CHRIST note after calling Peter "satan"? Did He not NOTE that Peter SAVORED the things of MEN (which are sinners, in ADVERITY to the COMMAND of God)?

Get REAL!

What does the word "satan" really mean, gradyll? Do you even know?

Have you bothered at all to research the meaning of this HEBREW term?

The meaning of the Hebrew word "satan" is ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY. YOUR FLESH is your "adversary", gradyll... not some invisible, inaudible "red guy" with a "pitchfork"! ...which prompts you INAUDIBLY and INVISIBLY, to do EVIL!

The Hebrew word "satan" is NOT a "proper name"... Nor does it require CAPITALIZATION... in fact... there is no "CAPTIALIZATION" done in the original language of this word.



A few FACTS (not scientific theories) about the Hebrew word... "satan":


1. "satan" appears only 19 total times in the ENTIRE OT... of which 14 of those appearances are found in ONE BOOK = JOB... Leaving only 5 other mentions of this word to be found in the balance of the SCRIPTURES...

Whattupwidat? ...The MOST important and MAJOR "entity" aside from GOD Himself, which WE are to deal with in this life, is literally... ABSENT in the OT portion of the WORD? ...WHY? I'll tell you why... because IT is not an "ENTITY".


2. The word "satan" does not even appear even ONCE in the TORAH! Not ONCE! WHY? The TORAH is the most SACRED of all Jewish writings... yet there is NOT ONE MENTION of "satan" at ALL in them. WHY?

Why not put your LOGIC "HAT" on for just a moment, and ask yourself ---

WHY is this EVIL "entity" left out of the very FOUNDATION (TORAH) of YHVH'S WORD? And WHY would YHVH withhold this from MAN, ...by making man deal with BY FAR, the MOST dangerous "being" in the entire HISTORY of dangerous "beings"? I say because "satan" is not a being at all...

Would YOU send your INNOCENT children which you DEARLY LOVE, ...into a "FENCED YARD" ...containing INNUMERABLE INVISIBLE PREDATORS which YOU placed in the "YARD"... and then be SILENT about their PRESENCE in the "YARD", gradyll? Is that your idea of the doings of LOVE?

NOW THAT ...is something that FAILS to make ANY sense at all!


3. YHVH GOD did not warn Adam of any INVISIBLE creature called "satan" and INNUMERABLE other INVISIBLE creatures, ...that were ALSO in the Garden...

And if indeed there was such a creature (or "creatures")... Then it is not completely UNFAIR that GOD WITHHELD VITAL information from Adam concerning their "presence"... at the VERY least WARNING them of these "creatures"?

You have obviously done so little research on your surface observation... and instead, rely on the testimony of LIKE believers to found your beliefs as TRUE, instead of researching for YOURSELF, the things of the Holy WORD...

Not only on this subject, but in its connection to other subjects in that WORD...

Enough... maybe some ears will have HEARD... you shall generalize and avoid what I have said... because your LOVE for TRADITION is too great, far greater than your LOVE to LEARN...

PEACE...


...willieH

A list of willies pontifications

1) satan does not exist (as a literal being)
2) the atom does not exist (because we can't see them with the naked eye)
3) the speed of light does not exist (because we physically can't travel that fast to verify it)
4) we are all in the lake of fire burning right now (the earth)

and the newest
5) the organized church is sinful (every church unworthy of attendance)

(keep it coming willing your scoring points with satan)

 

[createdtoworship]

green italics to those things in this post that deserved a reply:



Thank you for the wish of PEACE... you almost made it appear you were starting to LEARN!

Too bad you disingenuously tainted the offering of PEACE, with a negative (and untruthful) comment... ...which made your offering of PEACE, sound SUPERFICIAL...

baby steps bro, baby steps...



You FEAR "satan" because you do not even know what "satan" is, gradyll...


Which TO YOU, is an INVISIBLE, INAUDIBLE... EVIL GHOST which is FEARED...


And which is TO ME, ...The principality of ADVERSITY within all men which are adverse, defiant and disobedient to the COMMAND of GOD...

Failing to be in contact with the perfect LOVE of YHVH which has cast out the FALSE FEAR of this non-existent being...

YOU remain within the grip of its torment... while said "torment" and "fear" were long ago, cast away from my life.


PEACE...

...willi
eH

I don't copy and paste for you willie but for others on this forum that might actually believe your lies....

Bakers encyclopedia of apologetics:

Satan, Reality of. A good deal of skepticism has been expressed about Satan. Those who take the Bible seriously are obliged to believe in Satan’s existence, since the Bible unmistakably refers to the demonic. Nonetheless, it is objected by skeptics and atheists (see Atheism) that belief in a sinister evil power in the universe is outmoded and superstitious.
In Defense of Satanic. A real personal Devil is given distinctive traits of personality, including intellect (2 Cor. 11:3; Luke 4:1f.). Ascribed to him are the emotions of desire (1 Tim. 3:6; cf. Isa. 14:12f.), jealousy (Job 1:8, 9), hatred (1 Peter 4:8), anger (Rev. 12:12), and will. The Devil commands (Luke 4:3, 9) and leads rebellions (Rev. 12:1–3).
Some evidence for the personality and reality of Satan is direct. In total, it is sufficient to establish existence of a personal Devil.
The Authority of Bible. Once the authenticity and Divine origin of the Bible are established (see Bible, Evidence for; New Testament, Historicity of), the existence of Satan follows.
Genesis 3:1 describes Satan as a personal enemy of God and humans who deceives: “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden?’ ” The historicity of this passage is confirmed by New Testament references to the historicity of Adam and Eve (see Adam, Historicity of; Eden, Garden of) and their fall (cf. Rom. 5:12; 1 Tim. 2:13–14).
First Chronicles 21:1 and Psalm 109:6 describe Satan as standing against God’s people. Job 1–2 records that Satan has access to God’s presence and accuses people: ”Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them” (1:6). Satan is the real cause of Job’s otherwise unexplainable suffering.
Nineteen of the twenty-seven New Testament books refer to Satan (and four more to demons). We gain a lot more informed understanding of this sphere of rebellion against God. The personal encounters and conversations of Christ with Satan and demons made it evident that Jesus believed in a real, personal Satan. Jesus made twenty-five of the twenty-nine references to Satan found in the Gospels. Indeed, Jesus carried on an extended conversation with Satan during his temptation. Matthew 4 and Luke 4 describe a personal encounter between Satan and Jesus. Mark 1:12 and Hebrews 4:13 refer to this confrontation. To deny the reality of a personal Satan in this passages is to impugn the integrity or sanity of Christ (see Christ, Deity of). In Revelation 12:9 several names describing Satan are mentioned in one passage: “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” Rev. 20:2 speaks of an angel of God who “laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.”
The events surrounding the temptation are all historical—the ministry of John the Baptist and baptism of Jesus (cf. Matthew 3). The nature and reality of the account is too vivid to be merely symbolic. The Gospels accord considerable significance to the event as a watershed point in the life of Christ and salvation history. He declared himself to be the Son of God; he conquered temptation. He passed the test the first Adam had failed.
The Enemy of God’s People. The history of both Israel and the church are difficult to understand apart from a personal Satan who seeks to thwart God’s plan for history. At the fall it was announced that human salvation would come through the promised seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15). This covenant promise was eventually narrowed to the offspring of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob (Gen. 12:1–3; 36; 46). The covenant came to be centered in twelve tribes of Israel (Genesis 49). Satan relentlessly attacked that bloodline (cf. Num. 24:10; Zech 3:1).
Considering the relative insignificance of Israel in the history of the world, they have been the continual, repeated victims of programs of genocide, starting with the Persians (cf. Esther). The Greek conquest of Palestine was a studied attempt to destroy the Jewish culture with few parallels. From Haman through medieval pogroms to Hitler, Stalinization, and Sadam Hussain, this tiny people have been targeted. This conspiracy of hatred against the Jews is best explained as emanating from one sinister evil mind. This is to say nothing of the two millennia of attacks on Christian identity, purity, and community. On numerous occasions these attacks have seemed perilously close to demolishing God’s new covenant people.
The Reality of Demons. Another argument in support of the reality of the Devil is that of demons who express a unified conspiracy against God, his plan, and his people. Without a leader the demonic forces would not manifest such an organized show of force against God. Indeed, the Bible describes Satan as their “prince” (Luke 11:15) and “king” (Rev. 9:11). The increasing evidence for true demonic possession is an extrabiblical source of support for the reality of demons.
The Universality of Temptation and Evil. Another evidence of the reality of a personal Devil is the universal, powerful and persistent nature of the temptation to do evil. What else accounts for heinous crimes committed by seemingly decent people, from David to the present. Even law-abiding people (who pass for what we call “good&#8221 show that they are not good by feeling the urge to do things totally out of keeping with their character. And this includes Christians. The universal temptation to sin, even by godly people, is best explained by a sustained, personal attack. Evil does not fit the impersonal force category under which it is often placed. Gravity and magnetism are impersonal forces, but they do not personally allure. Evil by its very nature interacts with intellect and will.
The Proliferation of Deception. The existence of thousands of false religions and cults testifies to the existence of a great Deceiver. Paul wrote: “The Spirit clearly says that in latter times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron” (1 Tim. 4:1–2).
Considered as a whole the direct and indirect evidence for the existence of a personal evil power behind this world is substantial. It is based both in history and in personal experience.
Objections to the Devil. A common objection to the existence of the demonic is that there are natural explanations for what is sometimes called “demonic” or evil. A common argument is that sicknesses once attributed to the demonic, even by the Bible, are now known to have natural causes. This objection overlooks that the Bible distinguishes between sickness and demonic possession. Jesus differentiated between them when he listed them as separate miracles the apostles were given power to do: “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons” (Matt. 10:8). The Bible does not claim that all sickness is demonically caused. The Bible recommends the use of medicine in treating natural sickness (cf. 1 Tim. 5:23).
Similar symptoms may be present in sicknesses and some demon possessions, but that does not prove there is a natural explanation for both. The young man from whom a demon was cast in Matthew 17:14–17 had symptoms similar to those of an epileptic seizure, but that doesn’t mean he had epilepsy. Similar effects do not prove identical causes (see Miracles, False). Both God and the magicians of Egypt turned water blood-red. Even a demon-caused illness might respond to medicine. Many induced sicknesses can be treated. Because a mind caused it (whether human or demonic) does not mean medicine cannot relieve symptoms.
At least some demonic activity manifests distinctive spiritual characteristics not present with natural sickness. These symptoms could include such things as opposition to God, violent reaction to Christ, and the manifestation of supernormal strength (cf. Mark 5:1–4). These do no respond to any purely natural treatment.
Another argument is that belief in satanic activity is characteristic among the uneducated. These beliefs diminish as a society moves to a modern culture. However, this may partly be due to different strategies Satan uses among different peoples. He can adapt to the culture he is deceiving. What better way to deceive the sophisticated anti-supernaturalists than to lead them to believe he does not exist. The Bible declares that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). But it is not true that demonic manifestations occur only among “primitive” people. With the “post-Christian age” the Western world has seen far more occultic activity and reports of demonic manifestations.
Some of the greatest Western minds have believed in Satan and the demons. This includes Augustine, Anselm, Thomas Aquinas, Blaise Pascal, Søren Kierkegaard, and C. S. Lewis. It is not the degree of intelligence or education that determines whether one believes in a personal Satan. Rather, it depends on whether one has rejected the supernatural revelation of Scripture (see Bible, Evidence for).
Sources
N. L. Geisler, Miracles and the Modern Mind
———, Signs and Wonders
C. S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters
Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica 1a, 50–64
M. Unger, Demonology
Geisler, Norman L.: Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1999 (Baker Reference Library), S. 683



SEMINARY ARTICLE ON SATANOLOGY WHICH AGREES WITH THE PREMISE THAT SATAN IS A FALLEN BEING.

http://bible.org/article/satanology

"1 Peter 5:8-9 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith … (NIV)1

Unfortunately, because many people are ignorant of his nature and schemes, they become sitting ducks for his attacks."

another seminary paper on satanology

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs077m.pdf

 

[WillieH]

A list of willies pontifications

1) satan does not exist (as a literal being)

2) the atom does not exist (because we can't see them with the naked eye)

3) the speed of light does not exist (because we physically can't travel that fast to verify it)

4) we are all in the lake of fire burning right now (the earth)

and the newest
5) the organized church is sinful (every church unworthy of attendance)

(keep it coming willing your scoring points with satan)

FIRST --- Weak and inept reply to a studied and concise post!

Mainly due to your LACK of study, and LACK of dedication toward that which you claim to represent (JESUS CHRIST)...

The tally on your truthful notations above, which include your EXAGGERATED and UNPROVEABLE FALSE WITNESS... which contributes to your coming SHAME, INCREASING its amount, from yesterday:

#1 -- true -- Congrats you got one!

#2 -- FALSE WITNESS -- Nothing about this is true, and has not been stated by me. You are hereby challenged to QUOTE where I (not YOU), have said any of this =

#3 -- FALSE WITNESS -- Same as #2 -- You are challenged to QUOTE where I (not YOU), have said any of this =

#4 -- true -- what do you call AIDS, WAR, CANCER, FAILED LOVE, and MYRIADS of other SORROWS on the Earth? A warm-up? (not "fire").

#5 -- true -- Support of FALSEHOOD by the MANY which "come in the name"is seen HERE: Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- MANY not few, that "come in the name of CHRIST" shall be REJECTED by Him... I feel sorry for you...


It is Pretty SAD that you OPENLY LIE and MISREPRESENT my words... and then think your "going to church" ...is that which shall "override" this MISBEHAVIOR?

We shall see... if your words shall LIVE... or if they shall DIE -- 1 Cor 3:11-15



SECOND -- Concerning "pontifications"

YOU are the one that supports the system of "PONTIFICATION", by attending and supporting the "ORGANIZED church", not me...

As you have more than displayed that you are UNLEARNED for the most part, you likely do not even KNOW the meaning of "PONTIFICATION" (which is to do with the CATHOLIC church)...

As far as the "ORGANIZED church"... ALL of the PROTESTANT churches in Christianity, are just offshoot and REBELLIOUS children of the Roman church... not much more.

Maintaining MANY if not MOST of the "beliefs" of the ROMAN CHURCH (such as "HELL" and "ET", and which has had the AUDACITY to CHANGE the SABBATH of YHVH = Church on SUNday -- worship of the SUN)...

Which "pontifications" are they which the PONTIFF (POPE) preaches on during MASS in the Vatican each SUNDAY (not... SABBATH DAY) ... (and to which ...I... take exception)

Here, ...why not learn a little, ...POPE, gradyll? ...

Pontiff - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Pontification - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


You are FAR too easy bro... ...better go back to school... only this time, pick one that actually KNOWS something and. actually teaches, rather then "leads by the nose" as has the "dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary" ...done with YOU...




PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

I don't copy and paste for you willie but for others on this forum that might actually believe your lies....

Via your COPIED beliefs, you prove NOTHING concerning "TRUTH"... You only display the ability to PARROT the potential ERRORS of other MEN...

You do not KNOW ...that what I post are (supposed) "LIES"... Only by the measurement of YOUR trust in MEN, not the leading of GOD and His WORD, which YOU must enlist by STUDYING, to be approved -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- (which you HAVE NOT) ...do you arrive at this foolish conclusion...

You WILL find out, though -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Good luck on that!

Like I said, ...you're too easy... not having the WORD behind you, only the foolery of "dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary" and their words of DEATH...


----> AWAKEN from the DUST (your flesh), ...oh SINNER!

And BE STILL (not a student of the "dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary") and KNOW that YHVH is GOD, ...(NOT the"dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary" ) -- Psalm 46:10


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

The tally on your truthful notations above, which include your EXAGGERATED and UNPROVEABLE FALSE WITNESS... which contributes to your coming SHAME, INCREASING its amount, from yesterday:

#1 -- true -- Congrats you got one!

#2 -- FALSE WITNESS -- Nothing about this is true, and has not been stated by me. You are hereby challenged to QUOTE where I (not YOU), have said any of this =

#3 -- FALSE WITNESS -- Same as #2 -- You are challenged to QUOTE where I (not YOU), have said any of this =

#4 -- true -- what do you call AIDS, WAR, CANCER, FAILED LOVE, and MYRIADS of other SORROWS on the Earth? A warm-up? (not "fire").

#5 -- true -- Support of FALSEHOOD by the MANY which "come in the name"is seen HERE: Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- MANY not few, that "come in the name of CHRIST" shall be REJECTED by Him... I feel sorry for you...


It is Pretty SAD that you OPENLY LIE and MISREPRESENT my words... and then think your "going to church" ...is that which shall "override" this MISBEHAVIOR?

We shall see... if your words shall LIVE... or if they shall DIE -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

your following quote from post 670 shows that you do not believe in the atom or the speed of light....

And contend that the claims of SCIENCE concerning the "SPEED of LIGHT" and the "ATOM", ...are CONJECTURES, which remain UNPROVEN (and which you willingly swalllow)...

which are:

They claim to be FACT, ...their notions concerning the SPEED of LIGHT and the ATOM! I do not and shall not ascribe to them, until they PROVE them to be FACT.

who is the liar now?

by the way a few more questions for you...

1) do you believe in angels?

2) do you believe Jesus is God?

 

[createdtoworship]

Via your COPIED beliefs, you prove NOTHING concerning "TRUTH"... You only display the ability to PARROT the potential ERRORS of other MEN...

You do not KNOW ...that what I post are (supposed) "LIES"... Only by the measurement of YOUR trust in MEN, not the leading of GOD and His WORD, which YOU must enlist by STUDYING, to be approved -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- (which you HAVE NOT) ...do you arrive at this foolish conclusion...

You WILL find out, though -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Good luck on that!

Like I said, ...you're too easy... not having the WORD behind you, only the foolery of "dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary" and their words of DEATH...


----> AWAKEN from the DUST (your flesh), ...oh SINNER!

And BE STILL (not a student of the "dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary") and KNOW that YHVH is GOD, ...(NOT the"dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary" ) -- Psalm 46:10


PEACE...


...willieH

it is a straw man fallacy to state that the material is false just because it is cut and pasted. You should rather address the argument from the material itself and debate honestly.

The Lord is speaking to me and bringing to my remembrance that you do not like to address verses posted to you but like rather to be heard by your many words (matthew 6:7)

"do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words."
Matthew 6:7b

 

[createdtoworship]

Here is another post for YOU to AVOID...



The "END of the WORLD" is matter which is discussed in Scripture elsewhere -- Matt 28:19-20

But, ..."speaking of "nice theology"...

Where is the "end of the World" ...mentioned in the Book of Revelation, ...gradyll?

Btw... does the "Dallas The-illogical Cemetary" have ANYTHING to say on the matter?


PEACE...


...willieH

Just clearing this up once again,

did you say you didn't believe in the end of the world?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[createdtoworship]

A list of willies pontifications

1) satan does not exist (as a literal being)
2) the atom does not exist (because we can't see them with the naked eye)
3) the speed of light does not exist (because we physically can't travel that fast to verify it)
4) we are all in the lake of fire burning right now (the earth)

and the newest
5) the organized church is sinful (every church unworthy of attendance)

(keep it coming willing your scoring points with satan)

latest pontifications by willie

6) the "body" of man is literally the "earth" (post 599)

7) the "heart" of man is literally "heaven" (post 599)

8) there is no end of the world

 

[WillieH]

your following quote from post 670 shows that you do not believe in the atom or the speed of light....

YOU READ INTO what is said to you, instead of just READ what is said to you.

And contend that the claims of SCIENCE concerning the "SPEED of LIGHT" and the "ATOM", ...are CONJECTURES, which remain UNPROVEN (and which you willingly swalllow)...

This quote does NOT say that I do not believe the ATOM or the SPEED of LIGHT are NON=EXISTENT...

IT SAYS: That I do not BELIEVE the Claims of SCIENCE, concerning the ATOM and the SPEED of LIGHT...

Of course LIGHT has a "speed"... ...but it remains UNPROVEN that the Speed is "186K MPS"...

And of course the ATOM exists... but because NO MAN (woman) has EVER seen it, means that it's PARAMETERS are nothing but CONJECTURE made by said MEN (women)...

WORDS from MEN do not provide substancial PROOF... They provide CONJECTURE or THEORY...

Only when something is PROVEN and can be SHOWN... is it therefore PROVEN reality... until then it can and WILL be questioned...

Which is WHY we have ATHEISTS... No MAN can absolutely PROVE that GOD exists... Man must BELIEVE via FAITH that He exists...

No man has ever SEEN the ATOM, nor has any man ever TRAVELED the SPEED of LIGHT... and thereby provide PROOF...

Has anyone ever seen an Atom or subatomic particles? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers

They claim to be FACT, ...their notions concerning the SPEED of LIGHT and the ATOM! I do not and shall not ascribe to them, until they PROVE them to be FACT.

who is the liar now?

YOU ARE...

There are NO LIES stated by me whatsoever, concerning the CLAIMS of SCIENCE to KNOW the Speed of Light... and/or that it is PROVEN that they KNOW the parameters of the ATOM...

If you are NOT A LIAR... the PROVE these two claims... I'll be waiting.

by the way a few more questions for you...

1) do you believe in angels?

Well, being more dedicated to DISCUSSING than are YOU (who NEVER answers my questions)... I will answer these questions...

I believe that HOLY ANGELS exist because the WORD says they do -- Matt 25:31 -- This Scripture TESTIFIES that -- "ALL" the HOLY Angels" will accompany CHRIST at His coming... ALL means ALL, and does not leave out ANY...

Which also means that ANY ANGEL which was EVER HOLY... is STILL HOLY... and will be coming with CHRIST... effectively negating the BLASPHEMY you teach that ANGELS which were "HOLY" once fell from Heaven... Such as is your claim of "satan" and myriads (1/3) of other angels FELL from heaven.

Which is a lot of foolishness garnered from SYMBOLIC text. FOOLISHNESS, because, if "Holy Angels" indeed FELL... in a HOLY scenario, ...then WHAT is to keep this from REOCCURING?

Also, foolish, because, MAN now KNOWS "good & evil"...it becomes even MORE of a possibility...

No "falling of angels" ever took place and never WILL... and there is no PROOF in Scripture that ANGELS fell from Heaven which is a place of HOLINESS... thereby DEFILING a HOLY PLACE...

If the HOLY PLACE is DEFILED, then it can never be said that it is free from IMPURITY... HEAVEN IS... and UNCHANGING scenario...

do you believe Jesus is God?

NOT the MAN JESUS... I believe the MAN JESUS is the SON of GOD... and that He not only HAS a GOD noted by His own SPEECH and in His own WORD -- Eph 1:3 -- Mark 15:34 (Which is the ONLY God - YHVH -- Isaiah 43:11 -- Isaiah 44:8) -- but will be FOREVER SUBJECT to Him as GOD -- 1 Cor 15:28


It is also CLEARLY stated in the WORD that the MAN, JESUS is the MEDIATOR between (YHVH) GOD and MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6

As well as noting that He was MADE -- Heb 2:9


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

YOU READ INTO what is said to you, instead of just READ what is said to you.



This quote does NOT say that I do not believe the ATOM or the SPEED of LIGHT are NON=EXISTENT...

IT SAYS: That I do not BELIEVE the Claims of SCIENCE, concerning the ATOM and the SPEED of LIGHT...

Of course LIGHT has a "speed"... ...but it remains UNPROVEN that the Speed is "186K MPS"...

And of course the ATOM exists... but because NO MAN (woman) has EVER seen it, means that it's PARAMETERS are nothing but CONJECTURE made by said MEN (women)...

WORDS from MEN do not provide substancial PROOF... They provide CONJECTURE or THEORY...

Only when something is PROVEN and can be SHOWN... is it therefore PROVEN reality... until then it can and WILL be questioned...

Which is WHY we have ATHEISTS... No MAN can absolutely PROVE that GOD exists... Man must BELIEVE via FAITH that He exists...

No man has ever SEEN the ATOM, nor has any man ever TRAVELED the SPEED of LIGHT... and thereby provide PROOF...

Has anyone ever seen an Atom or subatomic particles? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers







YOU ARE...

There are NO LIES stated by me whatsoever, concerning the CLAIMS of SCIENCE to KNOW the Speed of Light... and/or that it is PROVEN that they KNOW the parameters of the ATOM...

If you are NOT A LIAR... the PROVE these two claims... I'll be waiting.



Well, being more dedicated to DISCUSSING than are YOU (who NEVER answers my questions)... I will answer these questions...

I believe that HOLY ANGELS exist because the WORD says they do -- Matt 25:31 -- This Scripture TESTIFIES that -- "ALL" the HOLY Angels" will accompany CHRIST at His coming... ALL means ALL, and does not leave out ANY...

Which also means that ANY ANGEL which was EVER HOLY... is STILL HOLY... and will be coming with CHRIST... effectively negating the BLASPHEMY you teach that ANGELS which were "HOLY" once fell from Heaven... Such as is your claim of "satan" and myriads (1/3) of other angels FELL from heaven.

Which is a lot of foolishness garnered from SYMBOLIC text. FOOLISHNESS, because, if "Holy Angels" indeed FELL... in a HOLY scenario, ...then WHAT is to keep this from REOCCURING?

Also, foolish, because, MAN now KNOWS "good & evil"...it becomes even MORE of a possibility...

No "falling of angels" ever took place and never WILL... and there is no PROOF in Scripture that ANGELS fell from Heaven which is a place of HOLINESS... thereby DEFILING a HOLY PLACE...

If the HOLY PLACE is DEFILED, then it can never be said that it is free from IMPURITY... HEAVEN IS... and UNCHANGING scenario...



NOT the MAN JESUS... I believe the MAN JESUS is the SON of GOD... and that He not only HAS a GOD noted by His own SPEECH and in His own WORD -- Eph 1:3 -- Mark 15:34 (Which is the ONLY God - YHVH -- Isaiah 43:11 -- Isaiah 44:8) -- but will be FOREVER SUBJECT to Him as GOD -- 1 Cor 15:28


It is also CLEARLY stated in the WORD that the MAN, JESUS is the MEDIATOR between (YHVH) GOD and MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6

As well as noting that He was MADE -- Heb 2:9


PEACE...


...willieH

the speed of light has been known for quite some time, tested accurately by several methods to be 186000 mps approximately. So since you don't believe this, I will maintain you don't believe in "the speed of light"

secondly, you don't believe in the parameters of the atom? You don't believe in the proton, neutron, or electron? So is it safe to say that you don't believe in the existence of protons, neutrons and electrons?
Thats worse than denying the presence of the atom.

Thirdly, what is an atom? Since you finally admit to it's presence? What is the atom made of since you deny the presence of the proton, neutron and electron?

if you deny that you don't believe in the unseen elements of the atom, well you stated:

The assertions of the speed of LIGHT and many other (modern) "laws of physics" are as THEORETICAL and UNPROVEN as are the UNSEEN elements of the ATOM, and other such speculative information which science proposes to YOU as FACT, without any PROOF whatsoever of said contentions... yet, lo & behold, ...are willingly and foolishly SWALLOWED by you as FACT.

Post 391

they have PROVEN NOTHING concerning the ATOM... and that most of their proposals of this UNSEEN entity, are based upon SPECULATION.

Post 586

 

[createdtoworship]

Willies list of pontifications


1) satan does not exist (as a literal being)
2) the proton, neutron and electron do not exist (post 670)
3) the speed of light does not exist (thinks it's not proven to be 186,282 mps) post 670
4) we are all in the lake of fire burning right now (the earth) (post 724)
5) the organized church is sinful (every church unworthy of attendance) post 742, 745
6) the "body" of man is literally the "earth" (post 599)
7) the "heart" of man is literally "heaven" (post 599)
8) there is no end of the world (post 599)
9) God IS the the actual universe (which is pantheism) (instead of beyond the universe)Post 356
10) All religions are false including Christianity (post 271)
11) the beast and the devil are symbolic (post 215)
12) All orthodoxy is blasphemy (post 186)
13) man is God (of the offspring and species of God) (post 172, 161)
14) Jesus is not God however (post 183)
15) Mankind has always existed in heaven (post 172, 163)

 

[musicforerunner]

Hello, thanks for posting this

I would say the problem with interpreting the scriptures of Hell to be non-literal is that Jesus never does such a thing in the scriptures. Our natural tendency with the scripture when we are offended is to accuse God of being unjust or unfair, again the issue is that we are making ourselves the standard for justice when clearly that is God's role. We have to embrace that it is His choice as to what is right and wrong. If God said in His word that eating grapes was a sin, then woah to anyone who touches a grape ! of course that is a hypothetical analogy but its not we think should be right or wrong rather we must lay our standard down for His.


The subject of eternal torment in the lake of fire (a physical place) is the most offensive thing to the human mind, the issue truly is we do not understand the graveness of our crime and how God really feels about sin. when i talk about God's feelings towards sin, i don't mean that He is in a bad mood and is offended at it. i mean it is who He is, that which He cannot change (His nature) breaks out in judgment and wrath against sin. GOD and sin cannot co exist in the full unveiling of His glory. that is why someone had to pay for our sins (His son Jesus)

but Hell is physical, Hell is real, and Hell is forever. our choices will forever matter this is called the fear of the Lord

 

[Timothew]

Hello, thanks for posting this

I would say the problem with interpreting the scriptures of Hell to be non-literal is that Jesus never does such a thing in the scriptures. Our natural tendency with the scripture when we are offended is to accuse God of being unjust or unfair, again the issue is that we are making ourselves the standard for justice when clearly that is God's role. We have to embrace that it is His choice as to what is right and wrong. If God said in His word that eating grapes was a sin, then woah to anyone who touches a grape ! of course that is a hypothetical analogy but its not we think should be right or wrong rather we must lay our standard down for His.


The subject of eternal torment in the lake of fire (a physical place) is the most offensive thing to the human mind, the issue truly is we do not understand the graveness of our crime and how God really feels about sin. when i talk about God's feelings towards sin, i don't mean that He is in a bad mood and is offended at it. i mean it is who He is, that which He cannot change (His nature) breaks out in judgment and wrath against sin. GOD and sin cannot co exist in the full unveiling of His glory. that is why someone had to pay for our sins (His son Jesus)

but Hell is physical, Hell is real, and Hell is forever. our choices will forever matter this is called the fear of the Lord

I've heard this defense of hell many times before. The issue is not how we feel about hell, but what the bible says. The bible specifically says that the wages of sin is death, NOT ETERNAL TORMENT in hell.
John 3:16, Whoever believes in him will NOT PERISH but will have eternal life.
2 Thess 1:9 These pay the penalty of eternal DESTRUCTION, not eternal torment.
Death is physical, Destruction is real, The second death is forever. It is not eternal torment, death is eternal punishment. Regardless of how you feel about it.

 

[createdtoworship]

I've heard this defense of hell many times before. The issue is not how we feel about hell, but what the bible says. The bible specifically says that the wages of sin is death, NOT ETERNAL TORMENT in hell.
John 3:16, Whoever believes in him will NOT PERISH but will have eternal life.
2 Thess 1:9 These pay the penalty of eternal DESTRUCTION, not eternal torment.
Death is physical, Destruction is real, The second death is forever. It is not eternal torment, death is eternal punishment. Regardless of how you feel about it.

my old used car was "destroyed" at the junk yard, but it still exists. I drive by it every day.

here is a clip from a website I found interesting:

"Death

The concept of “death,” or the state of being “dead,” is a prevailing theme in the New Testament. These terms are found collectively some 250 times. Though the use of the words may vary, depending upon the context, the underlying sense of “death” is that of “separation” —not “annihilation.”
Physical Death

The physical death process involves the separation of the human spirit or soul from the physical body. The death of Rachel, Jacob’s wife, was described as her “soul” departing from her “body” (Gen. 35:18). At the point of death, the body returns to the dust, but the spirit returns to God (Eccl. 12:6-7) —who will deal with it appropriately (Gen. 18:25).

The death of the body is biblically defined by the departure of the spirit (Jas. 2:26). Scholars have noted that for the “vast mass of mankind” death has never been viewed as nonexistence (J.S. Clemens, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1989, p. 181).


Spiritual Death

Spiritual death is the condition of being alienated from Jehovah. Since sin separates a person from God (Isa. 59:1-2), the state of being estranged from the Creator is depicted metaphorically as the person being dead. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that very “day” they died (Gen. 2:17; cf. 3:8,23), i.e., they were separated from fellowship with the Lord (though other implications likely are involved as well; see 3:19).

Prior to their conversion, the Ephesian saints had been spiritually “dead” (Eph. 2:1), i.e., alienated from the Lord (2:12-13). It is possible to be “dead” spiritually while alive physically. Paul declared that the widow who devotes herself to pleasure is “dead,” even though she is alive (1 Tim. 5:6). Christ wrote a letter to the church in Sardis wherein he described a significant portion of these disciples as “dead” (Rev. 3:1), that is they had drifted from Christian fidelity.


The “Second Death”

The second death is an ultimate and eternal separation from God. The expression is found four times in the book of Revelation ( 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8). J.H. Thayer defined the “second death” as “the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 283).

This condition is characterized as the second death because it follows physical death; it is designated as death because it is the terminal separation from the Lord (Mt. 7:23; 25:41; 2 Thes. 1:9). Try substituting the term “annihilation” for “death” in the Revelation passages and see what sort of sense it makes, e.g., “the second annihilation.” The very expression represents an absurdity. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that “hell” will involve the extermination of either Satan, evil angels, or wicked humans (Mt. 25:41,46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10)."

from http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/710-the-second-death-separation-or-annihilation

 

[Sophrosyne]

my old used car was "destroyed" at the junk yard, but it still exists. I drive by it every day.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/710-the-second-death-separation-or-annihilation

If a word has 10 definitions there are those who will pick and choose their pet definition completely ignoring the other 9 definitions. The thread has devolved into posting to the forum rather than engaging each other in an honest discussion. In other words it is more about them preaching their doctrine instead of rebutting the mainstream doctrine of eternal torment.

 

[createdtoworship]

If a word has 10 definitions there are those who will pick and choose their pet definition completely ignoring the other 9 definitions. The thread has devolved into posting to the forum rather than engaging each other in an honest discussion. In other words it is more about them preaching their doctrine instead of rebutting the mainstream doctrine of eternal torment.

true

 

[WillieH]

the speed of light has been known for quite some time, tested accurately by several methods to be 186000 mps approximately. So since you don't believe this, I will maintain you don't believe in "the speed of light"

Sorry, but this is NOT PROOF that the SPEED of LIGHT is (1) KNOWN, nor (2) that it is PROVEN...

I could care less what YOUR believe. Regardless of your "belief", I have not stated that "I do not BELIEVE in the speed of light"... Please. Get i touch with REALITY... and quite READING INTO words, what YOU wish them to say...

secondly, you don't believe in the parameters of the atom? You don't believe in the proton, neutron, or electron? So is it safe to say that you don't believe in the existence of protons, neutrons and electrons?
Thats worse than denying the presence of the atom.

(1) --- FALSE... I do not believe that MEN can name things they cannot VIEW as present in reality...

At best they can GUESS about these things - which amounts to nothing but CONJECTURE... however, until they actually SEE the ATOM, then cannot determine the parameters of it on an ABSOLUTE basis.

Just as they claimed a planet they called PLUTO existed (even though there was no proof), and NOW they claim it doesn't exist... ...

Next thing, you'll probably hear them claiming the planet MICKEY MOUSE exists instead of PLUTO... Hey! I deserve a triple on that one! =

(2) --- REGARDLESS of what "you believe"... ...the TRUTH is, that you have no right to note what I BELIEVE...


(3) --- "Worse" only to YOU... which is both inconsequential and irrelevant to me

Thirdly, what is an atom? Since you finally admit to it's presence?

You are EXTREMELY irratic. You just got done saying "So is it safe to say that you don't believe in the existence of protons, neutrons and electrons?"

Now think that I have "admitted" the ATOM exists... You need help, bro.

I did not SAY anything of the kind... and no, it is not "safe to say" that I do not believe the ATOM has particulars within its makeup... Just that those particulars are UNPROVEN by ANYONE, ...especially YOU!

What is the atom made of since you deny the presence of the proton, neutron and electron?

Unlike yourself, ...I do not SPECULATE about things that I cannot PROVE...

if you deny that you don't believe in the unseen elements of the atom, well you stated:

Post 391

Post 586

I do not even have to re-read these posts... My contentions have been consistent, without regard to your pestering IGNORANCE of them...

Niether of these posts say that "I do not believe in the ATOM"... they say what I have repeatly and consistently said... the ATOM and its particulars are UNPROVEN...

And btw... You have YET to PROVE either the particulars of the ATOM, or the SPEED of LIGHT...

THIS will be my last response to your idiotic and ignorant posts on this subject (atoms & Speed of light), UNLESS you PROVIDE PROOF for these UNPROVEN, ...SPECUALTIONS...


It tires me to REPEAT the same things over and over, to DEAF EARS...


Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Willies list of pontifications


1) satan does not exist (as a literal being)
2) the proton, neutron and electron do not exist (post 670)
3) the speed of light does not exist (thinks it's not proven to be 186,282 mps) post 670
4) we are all in the lake of fire burning right now (the earth) (post 724)
5) the organized church is sinful (every church unworthy of attendance) post 742, 745
6) the "body" of man is literally the "earth" (post 599)
7) the "heart" of man is literally "heaven" (post 599)
8) there is no end of the world (post 599)
9) God IS the the actual universe (which is pantheism) (instead of beyond the universe)Post 356
10) All religions are false including Christianity (post 271)
11) the beast and the devil are symbolic (post 215)
12) All orthodoxy is blasphemy (post 186)
13) man is God (of the offspring and species of God) (post 172, 161)
14) Jesus is not God however (post 183)
15) Mankind has always existed in heaven (post 172, 163)

Quit fooling yourself, gradyll! ...do you also "shut off the lights" just to scare yourself, too?

YOU are the one that "pontificates", being a member of the children of the CATHOLIC church... which HAS a "PONTIFF" (the POPE)...

And all you do, is echo his DEFILED religious sentiments as you spread the blasphemies of your religion, beginning with the FALSE preaching of HELL, which DEFILED teaching, finds its origin in CATHOLICISM... and on this forum, is perpetuated by her children... ONE in particular = gradyll --

My words both QUESTION, and ...stand in OPPOSITION of "pontifications"... Whether those "pontifications" originated from YOU or your (RELIGIOUS ancestry of) past and/or current, "PONTIFF'S " (POPES)

Get a dictionary... ...but then again... hey -- you don't bother with any tools which would help you learn TRUTH, ...instead, you just PARROT (like a mindless bird), the foolishnesses of SINFUL MEN...

Hey... its going 2 B 2 bad 4 U... ...you shall be without excuse.

Peace...


...willieH